The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)
- Thread starter Paul B
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It is important to have debate, but at some point you are going to have to pick a path and walk it. You can read and read and read stuff. You can talk to as many people as you want to get all of the ideas and opinions that you can find, but then you have to make a decision. My favorite author/philosopher would call people that try to implement pieces here and pieces there, as using a mongrel philosophy. When people look for hybrids most of the time they don't understand the underlying concepts at play and will mix things that will degrade the systems they are trying to hybridize, producing a worse result not a better one. Each approach depends on other decisions being made that will support the final approach. They are interwoven, and it takes a very solid knowledge of a system to change something in it.
There is a program that tells you if you want something that someone has, then you should talk to them about how they got it. One particularly awesome aspect of R2R is the build thread tag. This thing is so unbelievably awesome! If someone is giving advice on some subject, go to their build thread and look at pictures of their tank, and ask yourself if this is what you want. You have to be careful in so far as people will only show the best side of their aquarium, but what an awesome way to see if someone is saying something what the goal of their advice is.
People want to argue (not debate) with other people because they think their way is the better way. Better by whose standards? Better by what goal? The tanks IMO that do "better" have a consistent philosophy that they follow. The best part is that most of the people that provide information will actually provide the philosophy behind what they are doing. The problem comes when the person who wants what they have won't give themselves fully to that philosophy. The question then becomes how serious really are they about getting that kind of aquarium. There are many many many many ... people that aren't serious enough to get the aquarium that others have and are showing them how to get. Because they aren't doing it for themselves they are doing it for other reasons. This causes them to not be willing to pay the price and do the things that are neccessary to get the thing they say they want. If you are doing this for any other reason than your own enjoyment and the end goal that comes from that you are doing it wrong. Sorry, there are no words to mince in that regard.
When you dump your ego about aquariums you find that you make something beautiful and unique. I absolutely love Tigah Boy's tank.
www.reef2reef.com
I can only aspire to make a tank this kewl, but I would never make this kind of tank, I have no interest or desire. What a wonderful tank though. It is unique and special and it could only come from a certain thinking. BTW I find this tank to be a very successful application of what a successful hybrid would look like. I am not going to try to change Tigah's mind on how his tank should run. I am going to admire it for it's beauty and uniqueness. Tigah knows what to do to make his tank successful. I am sure though Tigah would be so kind as to relate his underlying philosophy if I asked. He probably would even answer clarifing questions on his implemention, but I doubt he would be very helpful if I tried to challenge him and tell him that he is diong it wrong through questions. Everyone quickly tires of that.
Each person is unique. Every tank is different. IMO the successful reefer is the one that can reflect themselves into their reef.
There is a program that tells you if you want something that someone has, then you should talk to them about how they got it. One particularly awesome aspect of R2R is the build thread tag. This thing is so unbelievably awesome! If someone is giving advice on some subject, go to their build thread and look at pictures of their tank, and ask yourself if this is what you want. You have to be careful in so far as people will only show the best side of their aquarium, but what an awesome way to see if someone is saying something what the goal of their advice is.
People want to argue (not debate) with other people because they think their way is the better way. Better by whose standards? Better by what goal? The tanks IMO that do "better" have a consistent philosophy that they follow. The best part is that most of the people that provide information will actually provide the philosophy behind what they are doing. The problem comes when the person who wants what they have won't give themselves fully to that philosophy. The question then becomes how serious really are they about getting that kind of aquarium. There are many many many many ... people that aren't serious enough to get the aquarium that others have and are showing them how to get. Because they aren't doing it for themselves they are doing it for other reasons. This causes them to not be willing to pay the price and do the things that are neccessary to get the thing they say they want. If you are doing this for any other reason than your own enjoyment and the end goal that comes from that you are doing it wrong. Sorry, there are no words to mince in that regard.
When you dump your ego about aquariums you find that you make something beautiful and unique. I absolutely love Tigah Boy's tank.
Build Thread - Tigahboy's Macroalgae Tank(s)
Recap of my macroalgae tanks for 2020. Wishing you all a Happy New Year! ✌️
www.reef2reef.com
Each person is unique. Every tank is different. IMO the successful reefer is the one that can reflect themselves into their reef.
You are correct, it will not work in a new tank. Especially if you are using dry rock and ASW. Nothing will work in a new tank because no new tanks are healthy. I wrote an article in my book about this but somewhere in the beginning of my book it reads, "This book is not for Noobs with a new tank" or something like that.
Noobs will always have problems but it is not your fault so don't beat yourself up. It is the bacteria and other micro fauna's fault. Those are the things that run our tanks, not you. They determine when you can add corals, when certain fish can be added and when the tank will generally be healthy. It will not happen in a year or two, sorry.
But to make you feel better, this hobby has no end (I just posted this someplace) There is no time you will say, I finally did it and can call my tank a success. (I can and will explain)
Keeping a tank is like sailing an expensive Yacht. You don't really want to get any place, you are enjoying the journey, the scenery, the breeze, and gentle water splashing on you, the conversation and wine.
The only end to that pleasure is the dock at the end. Unless of course you sink. Just like your tank crashing.
If you wanted to get someplace, why would you board a very expensive piece of machinery and go maybe 5 MPH while getting splashed?
In March of this year my reef will be running fifty years. All of the time that I have had this tank running I said many times that I won't call it a success until it is 50 years old. That is the age I placed on what I can call success. Some people may say 6 months is success. That is their goal.
I also said many times, that if it runs 50 years I will call my theory about not quarantining and how bacteria and parasites react with the tank correct.
I think that time is long enough to prove my thoughts as no scientific test lasts that long.
All the people for almost 50 years that keep saying "I have been lucky" that velvet didn't crash my tank are wrong. It is not luck and in March I will call it a success. If it crashes then. It is still a success.
Using my own criteria for my own tank, I can't call any quarantined tank a success until one reaches 50 years old. I am not sure how long I can wait because as my tank has been aging, I have not been in a coma or in space traveling faster than the speed of light looking for the end of the universe which I know is a brick wall with tar paper on top and beyond that, Strawberry fields forever.
Prove me wrong.
. its hard to prove a negative. This has all been discussed multiple times - IMHO - I don't believe you 'know' the ages fish live in the wild 'for sure' - since there is predation, etc - in the wild. Second - tangs - live in the wild for up to 40 years (which is proven) - which of your many tangs (I know you think they are boring) - have lasted for those 40 years? How long have the aquariums at various zoos lasted? Don't most of them use quarantine? I mean - with all due deference - The main reason I dont believe your theory is that a huge percentage of reefers do not have access to your living worms, water, etc - yet they are successful. If not - then everyone that doesnt live within driving distance to an ocean is basically needlessly killing wildlife - and I think we shoudl abandon our tanks - wouldn't that be the ethical thing? In 2021 it probably would be
I disagree to some of your logic. But - its not clear to me - exactly what you're talking about. Debate is a form of 'arguing' - or 'disagreeing'. Arguing to me is being 'mean'. Debate is not 'mean'. Where has anyone been arguing (being mean) here? In a debate - though (this where I have a problem with what you said) - people usually supply rationale for their discussion points as compared to 'I think'. I'm still waiting for any kind of rationale how some people with tanks in the middle of the country are supposed to use certain methods - and what use is the information? This is my opinion about tanks - If you take a tank - put in xxxx fish - and yyyy corals. Maintain proper parameters you will have success - in general. In reality - Coral A will kill Coral B, Fish A will kill Fish B - in the end - you will end up with a tank with More Coral A and More Fish A. That will look great. The idea, though, to me - that just feeding worms - and adding ocean water is 'key' doesn't make sense (it may be correct) - but it doesn't make sense. And I've been trying for years to get the rationale and even a slight bit of evidence/reasoning that it does. Stating the only evidence one would accept is a QT tank older than 50 years old - is a false argument. BTW - I have never had a QT tank, I have never used copper, I do not use praziquantel etc. I have egg bound fish. I have had angels spawn in my tank ( my pair of gold flake angels) shown in my video posted - and I fed 90 percent flake food. Does that make me a guru? No. It means (to me) - I choose healthy fish, I maintain the tank well and I dont overstock.It is important to have debate, but at some point you are going to have to pick a path and walk it. You can read and read and read stuff. You can talk to as many people as you want to get all of the ideas and opinions that you can find, but then you have to make a decision. My favorite author/philosopher would call people that try to implement pieces here and pieces there, as using a mongrel philosophy. When people look for hybrids most of the time they don't understand the underlying concepts at play and will mix things that will degrade the systems they are trying to hybridize, producing a worse result not a better one. Each approach depends on other decisions being made that will support the final approach. They are interwoven, and it takes a very solid knowledge of a system to change something in it.
There is a program that tells you if you want something that someone has, then you should talk to them about how they got it. One particularly awesome aspect of R2R is the build thread tag. This thing is so unbelievably awesome! If someone is giving advice on some subject, go to their build thread and look at pictures of their tank, and ask yourself if this is what you want. You have to be careful in so far as people will only show the best side of their aquarium, but what an awesome way to see if someone is saying something what the goal of their advice is.
People want to argue (not debate) with other people because they think their way is the better way. Better by whose standards? Better by what goal? The tanks IMO that do "better" have a consistent philosophy that they follow. The best part is that most of the people that provide information will actually provide the philosophy behind what they are doing. The problem comes when the person who wants what they have won't give themselves fully to that philosophy. The question then becomes how serious really are they about getting that kind of aquarium. There are many many many many ... people that aren't serious enough to get the aquarium that others have and are showing them how to get. Because they aren't doing it for themselves they are doing it for other reasons. This causes them to not be willing to pay the price and do the things that are neccessary to get the thing they say they want. If you are doing this for any other reason than your own enjoyment and the end goal that comes from that you are doing it wrong. Sorry, there are no words to mince in that regard.
When you dump your ego about aquariums you find that you make something beautiful and unique. I absolutely love Tigah Boy's tank.
I can only aspire to make a tank this kewl, but I would never make this kind of tank, I have no interest or desire. What a wonderful tank though. It is unique and special and it could only come from a certain thinking. BTW I find this tank to be a very successful application of what a successful hybrid would look like. I am not going to try to change Tigah's mind on how his tank should run. I am going to admire it for it's beauty and uniqueness. Tigah knows what to do to make his tank successful. I am sure though Tigah would be so kind as to relate his underlying philosophy if I asked. He probably would even answer clarifing questions on his implemention, but I doubt he would be very helpful if I tried to challenge him and tell him that he is diong it wrong through questions. Everyone quickly tires of that.Build Thread - Tigahboy's Macroalgae Tank(s)
Recap of my macroalgae tanks for 2020. Wishing you all a Happy New Year! ✌️
Each person is unique. Every tank is different. IMO the successful reefer is the one that can reflect themselves into their reef.
So then keep a tank for 50 years and prove him wrong.
From where I sit Paul shares his experience and is a pioneer willing to follow his gut and experience to places many aren’t willing to venture. As a result he has taught the hobby lots, directly, and indirectly
LOL - well - I have kept tanks for 40 years - and except for moving - etc - have not had problems. The point you're seemingly missing - is that I'm not for (or against) QT - I dont care what people do. Why would I. My debate with Paul is that he says 'ive never had a sick fish' - unless he has never had a fish die in 40 years - he has obviously had a 'sick fish'. etc. etc etc. There are hundreds of people on this site - who have 'experience' - For some reason - Its become a debate point that anyone who hasn't had a tank for 40 years can't have an opinion that differs. I think this is bad for the hobby and the site. The impression is that only with live worms - and ocean mud/water can someone have 'long-term success' in this hobby. I think this is incorrect. There are lots of people in Wisconsin, Nebraska, etc with reef tanks. The way its presented - its like these people are basically keeping their fish in a concentration camp - destined to die prematurely. I don't believe this. Do you?
Also your comment seems to think that I don't respect Paul, his contribution to the hobby, etc. If you read my post - I said 'in all deference' - meaning - he is an expert in the hobby. That doesnt mean I have to agree with every point he makes - or am I wrong here as well?
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My worms are available everywhere you can get US mail as that is how I got them 15 years ago and that culture is still going. They are about the same price as a couple of Caramel Latte's at Starbucks.
The sea water I use is not needed either as for most of the life of my tank, I used ASW. The seawater I like to use is for water conditions and has nothing to do with immunity.
As for being successful, that is also subjective. As I said, I will call my reef successful in March when it reaches fifty.
A successful tank is something that is an ecosystem with no quarantine, no medication, fish living as they do in the sea and all paired fish spawning.and dying of old age. Much of the food reproducing on their own, corals growing enough to start wars amongst themselves. That is my definition of successful. Other people have their own criteria.
I am sure you do.
I just replied to that.
I don't think so, but that is my opinion. A tank 50 years old is no big whop. But a healthy tank where no medication or quarantning is needed has never been done as far as I know. Anyway, that is my theory and assumption.
theMeat. I have been asking that of people for most of these fifty years. This is not new to me. Even before the internet I was saying the same thing but my tank was new then. It was almost always the oldest tank around because I started the hobby when it started, I think it was 2:00 or 2:15 in the afternoon.
MnFish likes to try to rattle my chain and it's all in fun but I still have nothing to prove. I am not sure how many years his tank has to go to reach fifty years but it won't matter anyway because his tank also adds to my theory because he doesn't quarantine either.
As for tangs living to 40 years old, I have no idea. I have had hippo tangs three times that lived just past 10 or 12 years. To me thats long enough to live in a tank most of the time that tank was 100 gallons but the first one was a 40 gallon tank. My fireclown will be 30 in March. But I think those live into their 40s.
What if they don't have a rationale just a recipe? Do you think you are going to force out of them what they can not describe conceptually? Does their not having a rationale make their recipe invalid? This is the problem with a fully scientific approach. It is like looking at a chart for the stock market and thinking that there is a rationale or logic behind it. Many many mathmeticians have lost a lot of money on the market because they think that they know what the concept is, but ask any successful trader for their formula and they will sound a lot like Paul B.
If there is a will there is a way. Did you know that UPS overnight delivers in all parts of the country.
Tell me then how GARF managed to find success? I know where GARF is and it is about as remote as it comes, and all of this before the advent of the internet.
Trully the information is only as useful as you want it to be. I get ideas all the time from other reefers. Once again to a famous program ... "Take what you like and leave the rest". BTW white worms were an idea that I stole from Paul B.
Define success?
Define proper parameters?
All of this assumes context. What is that context. Have you examained the assumptions that you are making? What is the context that you are comparing too? Do you know? Tigah's tanks will have much different parameters as compared to Paul B's. Which one should I choose? The ocean has a very wide range of parameters. Once again which one's do I choose?
I am assuming sarcasm here. The truth is the reason you will have death is because you haven't properly fleshed out your own thinking about what your end goal is. If your end goal is everything then you are doing it wrong. When I finally had a successful business the important hurdle I overcame was how to turn people away. All ideas are built from a concept and the concept will become a series of decisions that lead to the end goal of the idea.
Why? Because it doesn't have a concept that YOU can understand? Are you angry that you can't understand? You shouldn't be. If you really are interested and care then find the concept for the successful recipe instead of tearing apart the messenger of the recipe.
Then what is it you are debating?
You have something that works for you.
I think Paul B has stated over and over again that he is no guru. He simply provides a recipe that you can use for success. If you are trying to be a guru then perhaps you are doing what you are doing for the wrong reasons. There are many gurus here and I don't find them to be very helpful. In fact I find them to be counterproductive and petty. No one should want to be a guru if they are doing this for the love of it. Because truth be told fame is a corruptor like no other.
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My Mother died at 99 years old. She died of old age. I am sure her death certificate said heart failure, kidney failure, brain failure etc. But it was old age. The oldest person who ever lived was a French woman. She died at 122 years of age I think. I am not sure if she died of sickness, but at 122 years old, who cares. She died of old age just as I hope to do.
Old age is not a disease just as egg bound, jumping out, starving or being bitten half is not a disease. If it is, then I have been wrong.
And you know MnFish that we have gone over this adnausium. I call my tank a succcess if it lasts a few more weeks.
You can call it whatever you like. My fish like me.
When your tank hits fifty. Call me. Until then, I have nothing to prove.
Nah
I’m not saying you’re wrong, nor is Paul saying he hasn’t lost a fish. He admitted as much several times. Not sure why you’re hanging onto that. Nor is he saying you must use mud you personally collect from the ocean, and feed live worms the only way to succeed. He’s simply sharing his experience. It seems you and others want him to explain his practice completely, then find holes in his explanation to find fault or variables. With complicated or complex things like keeping a successful reef tank you can’t explain everything, and every situation is different. Sometimes you have to read between the lines to find what info you need to work in your situation. For me, have been in the hobby for 30 years. Consider myself a student of the hobby more than most, and have been willing and able to try new things. After 20+ years of qt and treatment have found much greater success following a more natural approach as Paul advocates. Don’t follow his method exactly, and ime I don’t have to.
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Ahh I'm still salty that Larry promised to give me rewards (for accidentally promoting his product) but then I never heard from him.I use that every day. But it is not the only thing I feed. I know Larry the owner and he makes a very good quality product.
My hippo has been with me for a year now and he hasn't showed ichMy Ich magnet Hippo tang has been in my tank for maybe 6 or 8 months and no ich yet. He has also never been fed nori or any dry food.
My fish can't spell "ick" either
But all of them seem to know how to say "wop wop" and "di da di doo"
But all of them seem to know how to say "wop wop" and "di da di doo"
[MnFish likes to try to rattle my chain and it's all in fun but I still have nothing to prove. I am not sure how many years his tank has to go to reach fifty years but it won't matter anyway because his tank also adds to my theory because he doesn't quarantine either. ]
Paul,
I agree that @MnFish1 likes to pull your chain. However, I sense you enjoy & reciprocate in the process.
Diver collected live sand & diver collected uncured live rock is available with next day airfreight to 80% of US . With these two additions at tank start up, new tank syndrome can be dramatically minimized.
]Paul,
I agree that @MnFish1 likes to pull your chain. However, I sense you enjoy & reciprocate in the process.
Diver collected live sand & diver collected uncured live rock is available with next day airfreight to 80% of US . With these two additions at tank start up, new tank syndrome can be dramatically minimized.
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