Tang Question!

[Chrisv.]

Leg me be very clear that I have researched them. I have heard success stories. It can be done successfully is my point. The 50 gallons and sometimes less which has been talked about is the bare minimum of keeping a tang…now the bigger the better but it can be done. The tang discussion will always be a hotly debated which is interesting to me. It’s the same thing as asking 10 people how to do something and you will get 10 different answers but there isn’t a wrong one just a different way.

I'm not sure, but I think they are getting at a more fundamental concern, regarding giving advice when you don't actually know first hand.

A friendly suggestion: Maybe there would be fewer threads like this if you were to preface advice that comes from reading (rather than experience) with phrases like "I've read that..." Or "folks on the forums seem to think that..." and then acknowledging that you haven't tried it yourself.

Alternatively, you do have first hand experience starting a tank. I'm sure there are a lot of people who would benefit from the experience you have gained over the past few months.

Again, just a friendly suggestion.

 

[MaxTremors]

Let me be very clear that I have researched them. I have heard success stories. It can be done successfully is my point. The 50 gallons and sometimes less which has been talked about is the bare minimum of keeping a tang…now the bigger the better but it can be done. The tang discussion will always be a hotly debated which is interesting to me. It’s the same thing as asking 10 people how to do something and you will get 10 different answers but there isn’t a wrong one just a different way.

Not all opinions are of equal value or merit, there are absolutely wrong or ignorant opinions. Some people think it’s okay to put tang in a 5 gallon tank, are their opinions just as valid, too? Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should or that it’s ethical. Anyone who has the ‘opinion’ that a tang, of any species, can be kept healthy long term in a 50g tank has a wrong opinion. No reputable source or experienced reefer that has kept tangs long term is saying that 50g is okay long term, so I don’t know where you’re getting that from, no one here has said that. I don’t get what’s so difficult about admitting you got bad advice and are wrong.

 

[Peace River]

It is important to care for our fish and vigorously promote good fish keeping behaviors. It is also important to remember that R2R was founded on the simple premise to develop a warm, friendly, suitable place to gather and discuss this hobby for people of all ages, backgrounds, and experience levels. The “Be Nice” policy is something we take very seriously.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Tank sizes for tangs: Help us create a list!

Let's put our heads together and come up with a good general rule of thumb for tanks sizes for specific tangs in gallons and in feet. Here is a list of tangs: (please let me know if I missed any) FISH - Minimum Gallons - Minimum Tank Size in Feet Achilles Surgeonfish - 180g - 6 ft...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Crustaceon]

So what you are saying is only your experience and opinion matter? Or that anyone with a different opinion that replies in this post is wrong or what? I'm still not sure I get the silver and orange equipment bit and what it has to do here other than maybe that is a dig against a certain manufacture? /shrug Also what do mandarins have to do with anything? You do know that there are captive bred that are trained to eat mastic, pellet, and frozen?

The OP probably got what they wanted and that is a few people said yes, more said probably not (I don't know the score actually as I didn't tally it), and now it is up to them. Nothing really more to the story.

Honestly if you want a yellow tang in a 40b or 50 gallon then Biota is your best bet. Small size. Eating prepared food. You know a rough estimate of the age.

TL;DR - op asked for opinions. Got them. Has nothing to do with tang police. Just hobbyist have different views and no one here based the poor lad/lass. Don't make something out of nothing.

I talk to people with your mentality all the time and honestly the "oh i'm going to show YOU" attitude rarely works out the way you'd like it to. First off, where did I say only MY experience and opinion mattered? I'm happy to hear suggestions, but If I'm doing something that works and someone else says i'm wrong, how are they somehow correct? Is my plump and happy frozen-fed mandarin that's been cruising around my tank for the past five years on the verge of death just because some rando read a book and within twelve seconds of learning twenty year old "facts about mandarins" thinks i'm wrong? For that matter, where did I say that other opinions are automatically wrong? Please post it because honestly, your entire premise from "calling me out" is misguided. Secondly, when I mention "orange and silver", i'm not saying a certain product is junk or whatever /shrug. I'm referring to the hypersensitive "fanboy" crowd who'll get offended if you point out a flaw in something they like to use (See ATS conversation) or if you use a product aside from the one they like (also ATS conversation), or keep livestock in a way they don't like. As mentioned, there are no true "tang police", just people with an elitist and closed-minded attitude. This is where said "mandarin" example comes in. They'll often say "you can't keep a mandarin that way!" all while the plump and happy mandarin just keeps swimming in my display as it does everyday in sheer defiance of what "experts" say. Third, I know about captive bred frozen-trained mandarins. I've been training mandarins to eat frozen LONG before it became a commercial thing. I knew what nutramar ova was before most people. And yes, fish karens will still to this day insist that it's impossible to get a mandarin to eat anything else aside from pods. This is obviously not true judging by not just my experience but the fact that captive bred frozen-eating mandarins are an undeniable thing. Lastly the OP literally said someone wrote an entire essay on why he was wrong so obviously the "tang police" as some call them (not my description) is relevant here captain reading comprehension.

But someone just wrote an entire essay at me telling me why it’s bad.

 

[areefer01]

I talk to people with your mentality all the time and honestly the "oh i'm going to show YOU" attitude rarely works out the way you'd like it to. First off, where did I say only MY experience and opinion mattered? I'm happy to hear suggestions, but If I'm doing something that works and someone else says i'm wrong, how are they somehow correct? Is my plump and happy frozen-fed mandarin that's been cruising around my tank for the past five years on the verge of death just because some rando read a book and within twelve seconds of learning twenty year old "facts about mandarins" thinks i'm wrong? For that matter, where did I say that other opinions are automatically wrong? Please post it because honestly, your entire premise from "calling me out" is misguided. Secondly, when I mention "orange and silver", i'm not saying a certain product is junk or whatever /shrug. I'm referring to the hypersensitive "fanboy" crowd who'll get offended if you point out a flaw in something they like to use (See ATS conversation) or if you use a product aside from the one they like (also ATS conversation), or keep livestock in a way they don't like. As mentioned, there are no true "tang police", just people with an elitist and closed-minded attitude. This is where said "mandarin" example comes in. They'll often say "you can't keep a mandarin that way!" all while the plump and happy mandarin just keeps swimming in my display as it does everyday in sheer defiance of what "experts" say. Third, I know about captive bred frozen-trained mandarins. I've been training mandarins to eat frozen LONG before it became a commercial thing. I knew what nutramar ova was before most people. And yes, fish karens will still to this day insist that it's impossible to get a mandarin to eat anything else aside from pods. This is obviously not true judging by not just my experience but the fact that captive bred frozen-eating mandarins are an undeniable thing. Lastly the OP literally said someone wrote an entire essay on why he was wrong so obviously the "tang police" as some call them (not my description) is relevant here captain reading comprehension.

Wall of text aside what I get from it again is anyone who disagrees with you is an elitist or has a ego. To include equipment which has nothing to do with this thread. Or mandarins for that matter.

You said:
Just people who think they’re they authority on the proper way to do things

No one in this thread told the OP what a proper way was to do things. They asked for opinions and they received them. Like it or not that is how it works here. I really think you need to do what Frankie says and relax.

 

[MaxTremors]

I talk to people with your mentality all the time and honestly the "oh i'm going to show YOU" attitude rarely works out the way you'd like it to. First off, where did I say only MY experience and opinion mattered? I'm happy to hear suggestions, but If I'm doing something that works and someone else says i'm wrong, how are they somehow correct? Is my plump and happy frozen-fed mandarin that's been cruising around my tank for the past five years on the verge of death just because some rando read a book and within twelve seconds of learning twenty year old "facts about mandarins" thinks i'm wrong? For that matter, where did I say that other opinions are automatically wrong? Please post it because honestly, your entire premise from "calling me out" is misguided. Secondly, when I mention "orange and silver", i'm not saying a certain product is junk or whatever /shrug. I'm referring to the hypersensitive "fanboy" crowd who'll get offended if you point out a flaw in something they like to use or if you use a product aside from the one they like, or keep livestock in a way they don't like. As mentioned, there are no true "tang police", just people with an elitist and closed-minded attitude. This is where said "mandarin" example comes in. They'll often say "you can't keep a mandarin that way!" all while the plump and happy mandarin just keeps swimming in my display as it does everyday in sheer defiance of what "experts" say. Third, I know about captive bred frozen-trained mandarins. I've been training mandarins to eat frozen LONG before it became a commercial thing. I knew what nutramar ova was before most people. And yes, fish karens will still to this day insist that it's impossible to get a mandarin to eat anything else aside from pods. Lastly the OP literally said someone wrote an entire essay on why he was wrong so obviously the "tang police" as some call them (not my description) is relevant here captain reading comprehension.

I’ve never once seen anyone say that getting a mandarin to eat frozen was bad or impossible, in fact it’s usually recommended that you try to get them eating frozen. What people recommend against is getting a wild caught mandarin and putting in an immature tank without a robust copepod population with the hope that it’ll eat frozen, and rightfully so, putting a wild caught mandarin in a sterile dry rock tank is irresponsible.

 

[Crustaceon]

Wall of text aside what I get from it again is anyone who disagrees with you is an elitist or has a ego. To include equipment which has nothing to do with this thread. Or mandarins for that matter.

You said:
Just people who think they’re they authority on the proper way to do things

No one in this thread told the OP what a proper way was to do things. They asked for opinions and they received them. Like it or not that is how it works here. I really think you need to do what Frankie says and relax.

Nothing in my comment says I think anyone who disagrees with me is an elitist or has an ego. I can however point out the fact that if I’m literally demonstrating my point in real time in opposition to what someone else is saying, It doesn’t make much sense to give that other person the benefit of the doubt. It would be like me saying my tank has 50lb of rock in it, someone saying “no! there’s 40fps!”, me literally taking out a scale, weighing the rock, observing 50lbs and still having that person say there’s 40lbs. I’m not saying they’re an elitist. I’m demonstrating they’re WRONG. Common sense. Also, I responded to the OP. Not the comments that followed it. His comment mentioned someone venting about him being wrong because they felt like they were the authority. Shift the goalposts all you want by saying “no one in this thread says”. You didn’t have to reply to me in the first place.

 

[Crustaceon]

I’ve never once seen anyone say that getting a mandarin to eat frozen was bad or impossible, in fact it’s usually recommended that you try to get them eating frozen. What people recommend against is getting a wild caught mandarin and putting in an immature tank without a robust copepod population with the hope that it’ll eat frozen, and rightfully so, putting a wild caught mandarin in a sterile dry rock tank is irresponsible.
I had a conversation in a thread on this platform a few weeks ago where people were saying the exact opposite. This wasn’t a conversation about “wild caught or captive bred”. It was a generalization.

 

[areefer01]

I’ve never once seen anyone say that getting a mandarin to eat frozen was bad or impossible, in fact it’s usually recommended that you try to get them eating frozen. What people recommend against is getting a wild caught mandarin and putting in an immature tank without a robust copepod population with the hope that it’ll eat frozen, and rightfully so, putting a wild caught mandarin in a sterile dry rock tank is irresponsible.
I had a conversation in a thread on this platform a few weeks ago where people were saying the exact opposite. This wasn’t a conversation about “wild caught or captive bred”. It was a generalization.

Then ignore them and move on.

 

[areefer01]

Nothing in my comment says I think anyone who disagrees with me is an elitist or has an ego. I can however point out the fact that if I’m literally demonstrating my point in real time in opposition to what someone else is saying, It doesn’t make much sense to give that other person the benefit of the doubt. It would be like me saying my tank has 50lb of rock in it, someone saying “no! there’s 40fps!”, me literally taking out a scale, weighing the rock, observing 50lbs and still having that person say there’s 40lbs. I’m not saying they’re an elitist. I’m demonstrating they’re WRONG. Common sense. Also, I responded to the OP. Not the comments that followed it. His comment mentioned someone venting about him being wrong because they felt like they were the authority. Shift the goalposts all you want by saying “no one in this thread says”. You didn’t have to reply to me in the first place.

People shop for answers.

 

[Crustaceon]

Then ignore them and move on.

That would be the equivalent of never posting again just because people are jerks, which isn’t going to happen. If I annoy them, they can leave.

 

[Crustaceon]

People shop for answers.
I’m just going to kill this right here. I don’t want to go down the negative route like it’s so easy to do on political forums. I want people to feel welcomed here and not surrounded by antagonism. Say whatever you want, I don’t care. It’s done.

 

[Sink_or_Swim]

If you buy a tang for a smaller tank as a juvenile with plans for him to graduate when the time comes it's fine. I've seen a 6 inch yellow in a 75 and I understand why people don't like it. If you've got a 55 and the skills to raise a juvenile then fine but be ready to find him a home. They really do need to swim.

This. I put a juvenile tomini in a 32 gallon a couple months ago, and am upgrading to a 75 gallon (4' tank) in a week. Only plan on one more tang - baby captive bred yellow. If I wasn't planning to upgrade within a year, I would not have ordered the yellow and I most likely wouldn't have even added the tomini. But that is just me personally (and I'm far from a member of the tang police). I get attached to my fish and I would feel obligated to rehome it as it grew, and not want to. So better to avoid even getting one. I don't see anything wrong with the practice of putting a small juvenile tang in a smaller tank and rehoming when it outgrows the tank though. A lot of people use them for their utilitarian purpose and do rehome them later and just replace with a new little one. Rinse, repeat. Even Ryan at BRS is cool with it and I trust his expertise. Swapping fish out just isn't my jam, lol.

When I was a kid my dad had a 55 gallon FOWLR tank with 2 yellow tangs and a fox face. I think the footprint of that tank is the only reason that is "doable"... still not ideal, but probably the smallest I'd personally feel comfortable with any tang long term. Too small for an adult fox face as well in my opinion though. He didn't know any better. Nice though that yellow tangs were like $20/each back then!

I don't appreciate the "tang police" when they're rude (as some are, not all), but I 100% respect different opinions and personally, I agree with the overall reason they have concerns with keeping tangs in smaller than adequate tanks. They're such majestic fish and honestly do deserve as large a home as possible, like most of the fish we keep that aren't nano fish.

Last note I'll make is that over the years, I personally have started to have major reservations about buying anything other than captive bred fish. Especially with ones like tangs who swim for miles in the wild - just doesn't seem fair to box them into a tiny fish bowl basically, which even tanks that are hundreds of gallons are when compared to their natural home obviously. (For this reason, I struggle with justifying 2 tangs in my 75 gallon even - though, the tomini is the smallest of the tangs).

(Didn't realize I had this much of an opinion on this topic, haha).

 

[MichaelReefer]

I just want your thoughts because people are the tang police on social media. What is the minimum you can keep a tang in? I think it’s 50 gallons and I’ve seen it done successfully. Someone wants to put an Achilles Tang in 125 gallon tank and I said it was plenty of room especially when they are smaller. But someone just wrote an entire essay at me telling me why it’s bad. I know tangs need a big tank but I think people are overly offended when a tang (at least a yellow or blue one) is kept in a 50-60 gallon tank longterm. And yes the more room the better but I still think it can be done successfully. I just find it interesting that this is such a hotly debated topic.

100 Gallon display is what I think.

 

[MaxTremors]

This. I put a juvenile tomini in a 32 gallon a couple months ago, and am upgrading to a 75 gallon (4' tank) in a week. Only plan on one more tang - baby captive bred yellow. If I wasn't planning to upgrade within a year, I would not have ordered the yellow and I most likely wouldn't have even added the tomini. But that is just me personally (and I'm far from a member of the tang police). I get attached to my fish and I would feel obligated to rehome it as it grew, and not want to. So better to avoid even getting one. I don't see anything wrong with the practice of putting a small juvenile tang in a smaller tank and rehoming when it outgrows the tank though. A lot of people use them for their utilitarian purpose and do rehome them later and just replace with a new little one. Rinse, repeat. Even Ryan at BRS is cool with it and I trust his expertise. Swapping fish out just isn't my jam, lol.

When I was a kid my dad had a 55 gallon FOWLR tank with 2 yellow tangs and a fox face. I think the footprint of that tank is the only reason that is "doable"... still not ideal, but probably the smallest I'd personally feel comfortable with any tang long term. Too small for an adult fox face as well in my opinion though. He didn't know any better. Nice though that yellow tangs were like $20/each back then!

I don't appreciate the "tang police" when they're rude (as some are, not all), but I 100% respect different opinions and personally, I agree with the overall reason they have concerns with keeping tangs in smaller than adequate tanks. They're such majestic fish and honestly do deserve as large a home as possible, like most of the fish we keep that aren't nano fish.

Last note I'll make is that over the years, I personally have started to have major reservations about buying anything other than captive bred fish. Especially with ones like tangs who swim for miles in the wild - just doesn't seem fair to box them into a tiny fish bowl basically, which even tanks that are hundreds of gallons are when compared to their natural home obviously. (For this reason, I struggle with justifying 2 tangs in my 75 gallon even - though, the tomini is the smallest of the tangs).

(Didn't realize I had this much of an opinion on this topic, haha).

My problem with keeping juveniles in smaller tanks is that more often than not people don’t rehome them or upgrade or they wait too long, and the fish languish until they have health issues and die prematurely. This is why I don’t think it should be encouraged or recommended to people. People get attached, like you said, and rationalize that because their fish is ‘fat and happy’ (not understanding that obesity is part of the problem of keeping large active fish in tanks that are too small), that it’s okay.

Keeping large active species in tanks that are too small can cause them serious health issues. When these active fish don’t have enough room to swim, they stop producing Somatostatin, which is a growth regulating hormone. When they stop producing this it leads to a whole host of issues: obesity, fatty liver disease, stunted growth, compressed internal organs, stunted growth, lowered disease resistance, and drastically lowered lifespans.

Inadequate tank size can definitely toe the line or borderon animal abuse, and so I don’t think it’s a situation where it’s just a difference of opinion or that both opinions are of equal value and equally deserving of respect.

And there’s also a difference between people who do it out of ignorance and people who do it intentionally, who know that its wrong to keep a 5” sailfin in a biocube (or whatever), and do it anyway (and then post photos on social media and use one of three arguments to justify it, ‘it’s my money, I can do what I want with it’, or ‘no tank is as big as the ocean, so it doesn’t matter’, or ‘it’s just a fish, and people eat fish, so what’s the difference?’, which are all just beyond ignorant. People like that should be called out for what they’re doing, which is mistreating/abusing animals, and I see no reason to go out of my way to be polite to them.

 

[Sink_or_Swim]

My problem with keeping juveniles in smaller tanks is that more often than not people don’t rehome them or upgrade or they wait too long, and the fish languish until they have health issues and die prematurely. This is why I don’t think it should be encouraged or recommended to people. People get attached, like you said, and rationalize that because their fish is ‘fat and happy’ (not understanding that obesity is part of the problem of keeping large active fish in tanks that are too small), that it’s okay.

Keeping large active species in tanks that are too small can cause them serious health issues. When these active fish don’t have enough room to swim, they stop producing Somatostatin, which is a growth regulating hormone. When they stop producing this it leads to a whole host of issues: obesity, fatty liver disease, stunted growth, compressed internal organs, stunted growth, lowered disease resistance, and drastically lowered lifespans.

Inadequate tank size can definitely toe the line or borderon animal abuse, and so I don’t think it’s a situation where it’s just a difference of opinion or that both opinions are of equal value and equally deserving of respect.

And there’s also a difference between people who do it out of ignorance and people who do it intentionally, who know that its wrong to keep a 5” sailfin in a biocube (or whatever), and do it anyway (and then post photos on social media and use one of three arguments to justify it, ‘it’s my money, I can do what I want with it’, or ‘no tank is as big as the ocean, so it doesn’t matter’, or ‘it’s just a fish, and people eat fish, so what’s the difference?’, which are all just beyond ignorant. People like that should be called out for what they’re doing, which is mistreating/abusing animals, and I see no reason to go out of my way to be polite to them.

You know what - I completely agree with you. I've been thinking about this a lot as I prepare for my tank upgrade, and the more I think it, you make some great points. And yeah, like I said previously, I KNOW I'm a person who gets attached to fish because I consider them pets and would have a difficult time rehoming as they grow... and since I have a great respect and appreciation of these magnificent creatures (I spent half my childhood growing up on the Gulf Coast, being taught about the ocean and conservation, and even taking marine biology in school and having dreams of becoming a marine biologist), I decided in advance of starting up a saltwater thank that I would stock based on the needs of the fish I want, and not the other way around. I know not everyone feels the same way, and they're allowed that point of view even if it goes against what many believe to be in the best interest of the animals. Doesn't mean it's not worth pointing out to them the errors in that thinking... I've just learned with personal experience outside of the hobby, you "catch more bees with honey"... Have a better chance of influencing minds and getting people to listen, when you are as polite as you can handle. Totally get how frustrating it is when people ask for advice and refuse to take it though.

I see it the same way with dogs for instance - just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD keep a dog that requires space to run, etc in an apartment setting. Wait until you can provide that dog an appropriate home, or consider a different breed - it's that simple. It's putting the welfare of the animal before our sometimes selfish human wants. Like don't even get me started on exotic pets... but that's a WHOLE other discussion and I don't have time to go down that OR the dog rabbit-hole, lol. I could write a book on the topic.

I agree - there is no place for willful ignorance, and it should be called out when people are just flat out unwilling to learn and listen to those more experienced. Tough love. See it all the time in my industry (financial planning/investments). You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink... in many cases, unfortunately.

There are tons of fish I'd LOVE to keep in my own little slice of the ocean. But I'll just appreciate them from afar - I am considering taking up scuba diving for exactly that reason!