Stray Voltage in new tank. - Reliable way and any potential indicator to know before getting shocked

[BeanAnimal]

I dont put any of my systems on gfci's but that's a personal choice and something that's not required and I'm 100% comfortable with!

I also run this control system for all my tank power

I opted to not use PLC and instead DIY software and hardware to control (3) circuits branch circuit, each broken down into (2) GFCIs with individual low amperage breakers for each output.

DIN relays (mechanical, not SCR) for each channel and HOA switch for each channel. CT based current monitoring for each channel and each of the 6 GFCIs - and an SMS gateway for fault reporting.

This was retired and I have moved on to a GHL based setup. I am not longer interested in building things that I can buy.

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

Ohh and to clarify above -- I would not keep my system on a single GFCI, but it is useful for troubleshooting in some instances.



Yes they are "made up on site" - shall we explain the entire technical underpinnings of our power grid and how EXACTLY power is generated, distributed, stepped up and down, transformed to two 180 degree out of phase hot legs and a return conductor derived from a single phase of 3? Maybe explaining Delta - Delta, Delta - Wye, Wye-Wye, etc. and center taps will help illustrate the point to the guy with the bad powerhead or pump? I mean after all, it is important for a reefer to understand transformer secondaries and the wyes. While we are at it shall we discuss the typical distance between grounding points on the grid, the resistance of earth and other factors that affect how electrons flow from the generating station to your home and back... I mean I think a reefer should understand 3-phase distribution, phase angle and power factor too.

OR

Can we just boil it down into a much simpler form and indicate that the power company supplies a home with two basic differences in potential, HOT and NEUTRAL and we bond that NEUTRAL to "ground" at our panel board to derive our ground reference and that the NEUTRAL and its BOND to the ECG is far more important than the (often useless) ground rods and water pipe bond... as they often are terrible actual "grounds".

Say you don't want to be part of electrical threads while showing that you want to be the smart guy in electrical threads by telling other people that their comments are BS

Want to go to to toe on theory, practice or code? DM me and we can debate who is smarter until the cows come home.

I have no need to go anywhere with you, your colors have shown, in fact you can have this one, 3 edits later you obviously need it lol!

Have a good day

 

[BeanAnimal]

I have no need to go anywhere with you, your colors have shown, in fact you can have this one, 3 edits later you obviously need it lol!

Have a good day

That is a deflection. My colors were never hidden. I responded to your backhanded post with sarcasm.

True colors were shown when you (several times) prefaced your comments by thinly labeling others as idiots and the discussion being beneath your dignity.

Also - to be sure, there is no crime or mis-dead in editing a post to make corrections, clarifications or to further explain a point, especially before the post is responded to. It is a form of proofreading.

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

That is a deflection. My colors were never hidden. I responded to your backhanded post with sarcasm.

True colors were shown when you (several times) prefaced your comments by thinly labeling others as idiots and the discussion being beneath your dignity.

Also - to be sure, there is no crime or mis-dead in editing a post to make corrections, clarifications or to further explain a point, especially before the post is responded to. It is a form of proofreading.

I think you misunderstood and read into it the wrong way if that's how you feel, but we can drop it either way, im only looking to help the guy that was getting shocked. I have nothing to prove to anyone or reason to thinly label anyone anything, that's why I didn't write a 5 paragraph post about transformers and how they are supplied by power plants. I was honestly just trying to start a conversation with the o.p and start step by step to diagnose his issue, it is what I do for a living and thought it would be nice to help with something i know. you quoted me first and derailed my mission, but again I'd like to drop it and just worry about anyone who would be looking for help with what I may be able to help with, I have no intention or interest in arguing with someone about nonsense, and alot of it really doesn't make sense to me.

again have a good day don't let this get you all flustered it's not that big of a deal

 

[k2-]

Just one point i have to make here on general courtesy point of view - Every one here is brilliant in something - the question is in what. So even though un-intentional lets keep the mutual respect. Someone may be rocket scientist but i can bet they know very little about marine biology and such permutation combination are infinite. Lets help each other in solving each others issues as experts in that field. What its worth if it doesn't come to anyones help or worse makes you look like boastful or condescending (which none of us want).

Alright gentlemen - Take it easy and lets focus together on solving this issue. Here is the update.

Please bear with me cos it might be completely BS as well :

I believe the cause of concern in my case is stray current in ground itself. Here is how i think -

Neutral to ground probe connection. - has .5 V AC
Ground to ground (like actual floor) ~.041 V AC

I have a suspicion that this stray current - as soon as i turn on any equipment is one that is causing the issue. I did find few gems in my overall wiring (hot and neutral replaced) and fixed them - around 2 so far. But i believe there are many hidden gems still in my overall circuitry.

I have 3 aquariums in this space - and all ground probes are off now.

Looks like my next plan of action is to have a dedicated circuit run to my garage - Move all my aquariums one by one to this new circuit and then go from there. Until then i will continue to check one outlet at a time and see if i find any other hidden gems.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I think you misunderstood and read into it the wrong way if that's how you feel,

Thank you for the response. I will point out before moving on that you (at least twice) indicated that people pretend to be electrical experts and shouldn't. You then responded to my post and lumped me into that group. So I responded .

im only looking to help the guy that was getting shocked.

As am I. I simply added to your advice regarding ground probes and GFCIs because in many cases grounding probes create more danger than they prevent (to both humans and livestock), especially when full GFCI protection is not present. I take a moment to point this out whenever an opportunity arises.

I have nothing to prove to anyone or reason to thinly label anyone anything, that's why I didn't write a 5 paragraph post about transformers and how they are supplied by power plants.

That is why I boiled "neutral" down to being supplied by the power plant to differentiate it from the home's ECG. Of course I know where neutral is derived from but opted for a layman's explanation to get the point across. I think it is relevant and helpful (understanding the general relation between ground and neutral) in these type of threads because it gives context to the troubleshooting.

I was honestly just trying to start a conversation with the o.p and start step by step to diagnose his issue

Have at it - but you can't expect those following along to not add to the conversation as well.

Have a nice evening - The OP is all yours.

 

[BeanAnimal]

K2 - I will let @thatmanMIKEson walk you through what to look for next.

I will say that, In itself ground to neutral voltage (often referred to as Common Mode voltage) is not wholly uncommon and can have many causes, some of them benign. Shared neutral circuits with inductive loads (motors) can also be a cause. It may be a piece to the puzzle here, but will take some more digging to sort out what your issue is.

I assume you are in good hands, so will step back to not confuse the issue with too many cooks in the kitchen.

 

[Reefering1]

If I may add, @BeanAnimal and @thatmanMIKEson , though it got a little heated the back and forth between you two offered a very in depth explanation of the subject. I learned a couple things and I'm sure many others did too. You both clearly have a deeper understanding of electricity than 99% of people on here(myself included) and are assets to our community. Thank you both for sharing your knowledge!!

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

If I may add, @BeanAnimal and @thatmanMIKEson , though it got a little heated the back and forth between you two offered a very in depth explanation of the subject. I learned a couple things and I'm sure many others did too. You both clearly have a deeper understanding of electricity than 99% of people on here(myself included) and are assets to our community. Thank you both for sharing your knowledge!!

you can't cook up anything good without a little heat

 

[Reefering1]

Or energy, if you will;-)

 

[k2-]

So here is what I found after my extensive work today -

Turned off everything all my 4 aquarium including quarantine and disconnected everything - surprise to see that at that point there was still .25 v ac in the ground coming from rest of the house .

Checked rest of the house and found there were 2 dimmers that are on the same circuit - my first culprit

Then I connected the tank through an extension cable to a different circuit and wallah - everything is fine no shock and all equipment is fine - meter reads 0 between water and ground.


Tomorrow I am getting an electrician to run a dedicated circuit to the garage and then slowly clean up the complete setup - for now most of the electrical equipment which touches the water is moved to second circuit and hoping new circuit will solve the problem even for rest of the tanks as well

Mean while the old circuit need to be looked at as well because it doesn’t sound safe

 

[alton]

Security companies have a bad habit of using water pipe grounds which doesn't work today because everyone is feeding their homes water system with PVC. You need a minimum of 8' of 3/4" galvanized steel pipe in the soil to be able to use it as a grounding means. Your service ground needs to be upgraded because of your voltage/ current on your ground probes. Current is power and voltage is the unit that moves power. As a comparison if water was current then voltage is the pump that moves it. I am sure your electrician will figure it out so you can get back to reefing.

 

[k2-]

Latest Update on the issue -

I had a fresh new circuit installed. And same issue - Ground seem to have some residual voltage reading. Come to find out that home circuits do not have same requirements as commercials - which means neutral and ground make contact at the box - My electrician explained it to me.

For now i have manually removed ground (i know alot of you will call it un-safe) from the single plug feeding into the EB8's In this scenario even though i will not recommend anyone to do it but it turns out to be safer than back-feeding the current into the tank. Its an old house and for me to dig up the whole house to find where the fault is expensive and almost impossible as well.


Any recommendations from the folks here ? is installing a grounding copper rod just for this one plug will make it any safer ?

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

Latest Update on the issue -

I had a fresh new circuit installed. And same issue - Ground seem to have some residual voltage reading. Come to find out that home circuits do not have same requirements as commercials - which means neutral and ground make contact at the box - My electrician explained it to me.

For now i have manually removed ground (i know alot of you will call it un-safe) from the single plug feeding into the EB8's In this scenario even though i will not recommend anyone to do it but it turns out to be safer than back-feeding the current into the tank. Its an old house and for me to dig up the whole house to find where the fault is expensive and almost impossible as well.


Any recommendations from the folks here ? is installing a grounding copper rod just for this one plug will make it any safer ?

what do you mean you manually removed ground? if you mean the ground probe from your tank then I agree that's a good move.

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

Latest Update on the issue -

I had a fresh new circuit installed. And same issue - Ground seem to have some residual voltage reading. Come to find out that home circuits do not have same requirements as commercials - which means neutral and ground make contact at the box - My electrician explained it to me.

For now i have manually removed ground (i know alot of you will call it un-safe) from the single plug feeding into the EB8's In this scenario even though i will not recommend anyone to do it but it turns out to be safer than back-feeding the current into the tank. Its an old house and for me to dig up the whole house to find where the fault is expensive and almost impossible as well.


Any recommendations from the folks here ? is installing a grounding copper rod just for this one plug will make it any safer ?

if you had a licensed electrician install this circuit and you explained to him the reason you were paying to install a new circuit and he did not look at your system grounding at your electrical meter I would call a different electrician.

what country or US state are you located in?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Any recommendations from the folks here ? is installing a grounding copper rod just for this one plug will make it any safer ?

Just putting this out there...

A dedicated ground rod for the tank only is a serious safety issue. There is a very good reason that your cold water pipe, ground rods and neutral are all bonded at a single point. This prevents those different grounds from having a difference in potential.

Real world - (there are plenty of examples) something as simple as a nearby lightning strike (direct or indirect) could cause thousands to hundreds of millions of volts to arc between your two different grounds.

Or something much simpler. You have an Apex and it is plugged into an ethernet cable that runs back to a switch in your media room. That apex runs your power strip that is plugged into a different ground (your dedicated rod). You now have the dedicated ground rod attached through the power strip ground to the apex to through the ethernet cable to the ethernet switch that is plugged into the service panel and its ground. ZAP you fry the switch due to difference in potential.


As for the Neutral to Ground voltage - again, this is rather common and can depend on a lot of things. Is the circuit loaded or not, is there an induced current from something, etc. Reading this common mode voltage is not a single diagnostic value, it is simply one of many pieces to a puzzle. I would hope that the electrician did inspect the service panel and ensure that the neutral lug was not loose or corroded and that the ground and bond were also proper.

As mentioned above, I would not use a ground probe in my aquarium for any reason and if I did, then everything in or near the aquarium would be GFCI protected.

 

[k2-]

if you had a licensed electrician install this circuit and you explained to him the reason you were paying to install a new circuit and he did not look at your system grounding at your electrical meter I would call a different electrician.

what country or US state are you located in?

I am in California.

Manually removed - means the outlet that has EB8 connected doesn't have any ground. And yes all the grounding probes from all my 3 tanks are removed as well.

Yeah calling powell electric today again to see what is a miss. But installing a circuit is straight forward so i am sure the ground stray voltage is reaching upto the panel or something.

 

[k2-]

Just summarizing so i can keep my head wrapped around it.

1. No grounding probe - Thats established and the plug is GFCI
2. When i stand on my garage concrete floor and touch the water I get zapped
3. For me to not have that shock the Voltage differential between the floor i am standing and water should be 0.
4. Upon removing the "ground from the outlet" - The zapping stops - and all equipment seem to be working just fine
5. Old circuit has grounding and floor show voltage differential of around .040 to .076
6. New circuit shows the same ground to floor voltage differential
   1. I havent tried connecting everything to new circuit and touch the water

ps - Not sure if this minor detail matters - Garage is dug up and grounding rod is installed at an elevation from the garage floor (my house is on the hill side with a dug up garage).

Because of all the induced currents and nuances its very difficult for me to isolate what is going on - There is not a single reading that i can go by. My whole objective is to find a safe solution and not get zapped as explained earlier my wife does need to take care of my tank weeks at time and even though i can live with it - i doubt she will be fine.

Panel and grounding rods are new installs (approximately 1 year old) because of a new solar install at my property.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Are the three tanks connected together in any way (water, equipment etc.) other than their 120V power cords being plugged into the same place?

You have a lot going on, tanks, solar, etc. I think several of us can walk you through a lot of troubleshooting - but honestly, I would have a qualified and well referenced electrician look at this from end to end. Trying to diagnose this from afar is going to be very hard. That, and I don't think any of us fully understand your service equipment topology enough to give you a clear troubleshooting path.

Your garage floor may not be well grounded in context to the panel (at a higher potential than the ECG). There could be induced current somewhere. There could be a bad ground bond or bad neutral connection at the panel or improper grounding in context to the solar equipment. Whatever the case is, the GFCI does not trip at the tank when you get shocked so the fault is not likely coming from the hot side of the service through your aquarium equipment.

 

[k2-]

So finally issue is fixed and it was grounding issue at one of my circuits. Once it was fixed with a proper ground connection some of the power leaks disappeared.

The new circuit is well connected now and all my equipment is back to proper ground and no power leakage / shock when I did water change this week.