Stray Voltage in new tank. - Reliable way and any potential indicator to know before getting shocked

[Rp8]

Thanks guys - just upgraded my receptacle to gfci, it didn’t take long and now eb8 and ground probe are connected to it.

Another dumb question here - will gfci help against dc voltage as well ?

Not trying to insult you or anything, but are you a fingernail biter? Sometimes I have clipped my finger nails to short and the result I feel when I put my finger in the tank is a slightly painful shock.
I have literally done this felt a shock, put my multimeter in and it read 0. Concluded that the salt on the fresh exposed skin is what caused it.

 

[gbru316]

Cool - ignoring your first line and your previous comment.

Thanks for the tip - I guess thats where my learning is going

Apologies if my comments came across as a personal attack. they weren’t meant to be. I probably could have phrased it in a more tactful manner.

It was just an observation that the skills required to build a circuit from scratch capable of detecting a voltage difference and turn on some sort of alarm when it exceeds a certain threshold include the background that would answer to the questions you originally asked. Given sufficient time and desire, I’m sure you could learn it.

Glad to see you added GFCI protection.

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

Not trying to insult you or anything, but are you a fingernail biter? Sometimes I have clipped my finger nails to short and the result I feel when I put my finger in the tank is a slightly painful shock.
I have literally done this felt a shock, put my multimeter in and it read 0. Concluded that the salt on the fresh exposed skin is what caused it.

some times when I twist wire nuts, or just working with wires I feel a shock, and it's actually just my body and I'm not getting shocked at all, some times I have to lick my fingers and tap the wire again to be sure, usually my multimeter is farther than I want to walk.

lots of times I think I'm getting shocked and it's just a wire poking me.

I get what your saying!

 

[exnisstech]

I dont put any of my systems on gfci's but that's a personal choice and something that's not required and I'm 100% comfortable with!

As to your system all I can say is WOW. I have trouble keeping track of what's on a 6 outlet power strip.
I tend to agree about the use of gfci's especially on critical systems like return pumps. I have had too many fail for no reason. Had a family member that had one tripping all the time in the bathroom. Tech replaced it several times with no improvement. Got lucky once when he was there and the dang long haired cat jumped up and walked along the wall and pop there goes the gfci. Static from the cat was causing it to pop.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

As to your system all I can say is WOW. I have trouble keeping track of what's on a 6 outlet power strip.
I tend to agree about the use of gfci's especially on critical systems like return pumps. I have had too many fail for no reason. Had a family member that had one tripping all the time in the bathroom. Tech replaced it several times with no improvement. Got lucky once when he was there and the dang long haired cat jumped up and walked along the wall and pop there goes the gfci. Static from the cat was causing it to pop.

Oh, sure... just blame the cat

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

As to your system all I can say is WOW. I have trouble keeping track of what's on a 6 outlet power strip.
I tend to agree about the use of gfci's especially on critical systems like return pumps. I have had too many fail for no reason. Had a family member that had one tripping all the time in the bathroom. Tech replaced it several times with no improvement. Got lucky once when he was there and the dang long haired cat jumped up and walked along the wall and pop there goes the gfci. Static from the cat was causing it to pop.

yeah there's alot of reasons a gfci could trip other than dangerous conditions and risk of electrical shock, but people have misconceived perception about what is involved when using a gfci, and what is and isn't required and where.

first and foremost is having safe quality electrical installation and quality equipment in good working condition. there's a reason heaters have a warranty on them even though they continue to work after 3 years, part of that is the manufacturer covering their liability from possibly faulty equipment over time.

people also like to buy cheap Chinese equipment that doesn't adhere to our safety standards or UL listing. if these are used it's best to replace these types of units well before they "need" to be. salt water is a highly corrosive environment mixed with time and heat it does all kinds of stuff to electronics over time including insulation breakdown.

I dont like to have my system turn off for potentially days because a 20$ device made in China says there is a groundfault when really there is no issue but a cat walking by. you know what i mean

that picture is a 3ph 480v control cabinet I was working on yesterday, not my tank controller lol

 

[k2-]

Update from yesterday & Today-

GFCI hasn't tripped yet. Ground probe is connected to GFCI outlet 1 and EB8 is connected to GFCI outlet 2.
I unplugged everything - I mean everything (even probes) - still when i put my finger on the water and step on the floor i have a shock - not the tingling under the finger but not a 110Volt shock either.

Now i am really not sure what the heck is going on.

Observation - When i am wearing my rubber sole obviously and as expected no shock. Infact the reason i found out about this stray current is when i was rescaping my rock work i happen to touch my standing ladder and felt shock everytime.

- Checked all the wire connection and tighten them
- All my equipment is listed on my build thread. New everything - Dalua pump and skimmer, Panta Rhei ECm 63 powerhead and Hygger heaters (but they are off because temp is still under the threshold) - To me it sounds like new BRS heaters were victim of this anomaly as previously mentioned they were leaking current
- Lights and light wiring has no connection with the tank as they are hung above the tank
- Power supply to my under the tank for equipment is a metal clad wire and is installed on the wooden stand (dry) and volt meter doesnt read any voltage on clad itself this wire connects my power supply to under the stand GFCI
- Shadow box lights are off and unplugged
- Wooden Tank stand is raised around 4 inches from ground

Multimeter reading

1) Water to neutral -> 120 MV
2) Floor to Neutral - 2V

This might be counter intuitive - but could something is touching the floor and causing stray voltage (i have 2 more aquariums in the same vicinity however none of the tanks have any stray voltage in the water and may be some wire fell on the ground causing this .

Will dig - may be i am going out of the scope or over complicating but it surely is strange and difficult to find out. I dont want to blame an equipment and return it because of suspicion.

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

Update from yesterday & Today-

GFCI hasn't tripped yet. Ground probe is connected to GFCI outlet 1 and EB8 is connected to GFCI outlet 2.
I unplugged everything - I mean everything (even probes) - still when i put my finger on the water and step on the floor i have a shock - not the tingling under the finger but not a 110Volt shock either.

Now i am really not sure what the heck is going on.

Observation - When i am wearing my rubber sole obviously and as expected no shock. Infact the reason i found out about this stray current is when i was rescaping my rock work i happen to touch my standing ladder and felt shock everytime.

- Checked all the wire connection and tighten them
- All my equipment is listed on my build thread. New everything - Dalua pump and skimmer, Panta Rhei ECm 63 powerhead and Hygger heaters (but they are off because temp is still under the threshold) - To me it sounds like new BRS heaters were victim of this anomaly as previously mentioned they were leaking current
- Lights and light wiring has no connection with the tank as they are hung above the tank
- Power supply to my under the tank for equipment is a metal clad wire and is installed on the wooden stand (dry) and volt meter doesnt read any voltage on clad itself this wire connects my power supply to under the stand GFCI
- Shadow box lights are off and unplugged
- Wooden Tank stand is raised around 4 inches from ground

Multimeter reading

1) Water to neutral -> 120 MV
2) Floor to Neutral - 2V

This might be counter intuitive - but could something is touching the floor and causing stray voltage (i have 2 more aquariums in the same vicinity however none of the tanks have any stray voltage in the water and may be some wire fell on the ground causing this .

Will dig - may be i am going out of the scope or over complicating but it surely is strange and difficult to find out. I dont want to blame an equipment and return it because of suspicion.

wait so nothing in this tank is plugged in, and you still feel this?

just for science sake turn off the main for your house and see if that fixes the issue then we can go from there.

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

Almost sounds like a problem they had with some Residential Swimming Pools around here. People were getting shocked in a neighborhood, when they touched the water. Local Electric Company ended up running several miles of Ground Wire, of course they denied that was the problem. Have you checked your ground an neutral connections in your panel, also are you running off of a Sub-Panel? The Grounds and Neutral are Separated in a Sub-Panel. Neutral is on an Isolated Terminal bar.

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

Almost sounds like a problem they had with some Residential Swimming Pools around here. People were getting shocked in a neighborhood, when they touched the water. Local Electric Company ended up running several miles of Ground Wire, of course they denied that was the problem. Have you checked your ground an neutral connections in your panel, also are you running off of a Sub-Panel? The Grounds and Neutral are Separated in a Sub-Panel. Neutral is on an Isolated Terminal bar.

thats 3 steps after where I was heading, but no source voltage should eliminate the issue unless it's psychological (not insulting in any way, just going step by step to figureit out)

 

[exnisstech]

Multimeter reading

1) Water to neutral -> 120 MV
2) Floor to Neutral - 2V

Disclaimer :I'm not an electrician and not even above average intelligence and maybe even below. But I don't understand how a person can feel 120mv or 2v through contact with skin

 

[Reefering1]

yeah there's alot of reasons a gfci could trip other than dangerous conditions and risk of electrical shock, but people have misconceived perception about what is involved when using a gfci, and what is and isn't required and where.

first and foremost is having safe quality electrical installation and quality equipment in good working condition. there's a reason heaters have a warranty on them even though they continue to work after 3 years, part of that is the manufacturer covering their liability from possibly faulty equipment over time.

people also like to buy cheap Chinese equipment that doesn't adhere to our safety standards or UL listing. if these are used it's best to replace these types of units well before they "need" to be. salt water is a highly corrosive environment mixed with time and heat it does all kinds of stuff to electronics over time including insulation breakdown.

I dont like to have my system turn off for potentially days because a 20$ device made in China says there is a groundfault when really there is no issue but a cat walking by. you know what i mean

that picture is a 3ph 480v control cabinet I was working on yesterday, not my tank controller lol

Lol. I knew it. Figured this guy either owns sea world or that's not for a aquarium. Still a impressive set up- nice and neat

 

[k2-]

Funny notes all around .

Matter of fact , I am getting shocked and i tried to isolate almost everything except the apex flow sensor and hence i am trying to isolate and get ideas from the community if something might be a miss.

Let me try that as well and touch the water again but lets see if i get shocked.

Errata from above note - When i say between neutral and water / floor - I meant Ground to water / floor.

But why i am getting shocked yet to be found out. Will keep this interesting conversation going on. Thanks all for participating.

Disclaimer :I'm not an electrician and not even above average intelligence and maybe even below. But I don't understand how a person can feel 120mv or 2v through contact with skin

 

[BeanAnimal]

. imo remove the ground probe unless it's installed on a gfci receptacle!

does all your equipment have a ground prong?

No wiggle room here… if a ground probe is used ALL equipment in or near the aquarium MUST be protected by GFCI. The ground probe creates fault path that puts you in harms way.

 

[alton]

You said everything was unplugged and you got shocked, sounds like the ground probe was still in the sump? Take it out and see if you still get shocked. At the same time make sure your lights if they sit on top of the tank with salt creep are not causing the issue.

 

[YOYOYOReefer]

Do you have halides. Are you perhaps touching the fixture and becoming the ground.

 

[The_Paradox]

With everything off, stick your finger in the tank twice. Do you get shocked once or twice?

 

[k2-]

You said everything was unplugged and you got shocked, sounds like the ground probe was still in the sump? Take it out and see if you still get shocked. At the same time make sure your lights if they sit on top of the tank with salt creep are not causing the issue.

Ok so latest is this -

Ground probe was taken out and no shock - Now i am confused that my ground is faulty ... then why my GFCI is not tripping ?

Do you have halides. Are you perhaps touching the fixture and becoming the ground.

Nope thats not the case.

 

[k2-]

You said everything was unplugged and you got shocked, sounds like the ground probe was still in the sump? Take it out and see if you still get shocked. At the same time make sure your lights if they sit on top of the tank with salt creep are not causing the issue.

On the light part system is super new (started cycling a week ago) so no salt creep there.

 

[The_Paradox]

Ok so latest is this -

Ground probe was taken out and no shock - Now i am confused that my ground is faulty ... then why my GFCI is not tripping ?

Nope thats not the case.

Because the voltage is outside the circuit.