Stray Voltage in new tank. - Reliable way and any potential indicator to know before getting shocked

[YOYOYOReefer]

something is putting some voltage to that ground plug, either a neutral wire getting hot or the casing of an appliance getting a partial or intermittent short to ground Most likely.

where is the ground probe actually cconnected? At the outlet, at the main, or to a water pipe or grounding rod. You don’t seem to have a proper ground.

 

[k2-]

Thats the impression I am getting -

Ground probe is connected to the outlet. And the main ground of the house is a grounding rod connected with the water pipes.

So first thing i am doing going through the receptacles in the house and testing if they all are correctly installed - there seem to be botched up job with 2 of them. So will firstly fix that (wont know the gem i find until i open the plate - but that should happen after wife goes for grocery).

if that doesnt fix my plan is to go through an extensive exercise of shutting down each circuit on the main panel to isolate which circuit is causing the issue. I am hoping its nothing serious and finding the circuit should open the next set of doors. Its an old house and i wont be surprised there are some Gems.

Will keep everyone posted.

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

is your pump submerged in your water?

if not does it shock you when you touch the housing?

if submerged does it shock you when you put your hand in the water?

if it shocks you when you put your hand in the water and the pump is submerged, does it shock you if you remove your ground probe?

is this just a slight tingle or is it knocking you on the ground?

having a ground probe without a gfci can allow current to flow, and your water could provide enough resistance allowing the circuit to operate without tripping the breaker. imo remove the ground probe unless it's installed on a gfci receptacle!

does all your equipment have a ground prong?

if any of the above...why haven't you replaced this faulty equipment?

No wiggle room here… if a ground probe is used ALL equipment in or near the aquarium MUST be protected by GFCI. The ground probe creates fault path that puts you in harms way.

thats exactly why I said and have said before those ground probes can alow current to flow without tripping the circuit or tripping a gfci, they are better when paired with a gfci because they could allow the gfci to trip when a regular recpticle would continue to work but that is not a guarantee, either way having a ground in your tank is a potential for current to flow, a tank is normally isolated and has no potential for current flow. but everyone's an electrician right..

I'm not sure what you were getting at with my post @BeanAnimal I think you were agreeing with me.

 

[YOYOYOReefer]

Try grounding to a water pipe or at your main. Bet it fixes the problem. Beans right never use a ground plug without a gcfi. That’s 100 percent correct. But only use a ground plug that’s hooked to a real ground. Otherwise you become the ground when you put you hand in the salt water

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

Thats the impression I am getting -

Ground probe is connected to the outlet. And the main ground of the house is a grounding rod connected with the water pipes.

So first thing i am doing going through the receptacles in the house and testing if they all are correctly installed - there seem to be botched up job with 2 of them. So will firstly fix that (wont know the gem i find until i open the plate - but that should happen after wife goes for grocery).

if that doesnt fix my plan is to go through an extensive exercise of shutting down each circuit on the main panel to isolate which circuit is causing the issue. I am hoping its nothing serious and finding the circuit should open the next set of doors. Its an old house and i wont be surprised there are some Gems.

Will keep everyone posted.

stop using the ground probe! I would also check your houses grounding situation you should have 2 ground rods 6' apart and Coldwater grounded at your meter with a solid #4awg wire uninterrupted to your meter.

if not call an electrician to have this installed correctly, alot of old homes do not have this or it is compromised

 

[James w Lewis]

When you have nothing plugged in, do you have any voltage between the grounded slot and the grounding slot on your wall receptacle? If you pull your grounding probe out out of your tank do you still get shocked? Black = Ungrounded, White = Grounded, Green/Bare is Grounding. I made a house call to a friend who had a poorly grounded service and it was using his tank as a grounding means along with his copper pipe so yes he was getting shocked while taking a shower also.

What is a grounding probe

 

[BeanAnimal]

thats exactly why I said and have said before those ground probes can alow current to flow without tripping the circuit or tripping a gfci, they are better when paired with a gfci because they could allow the gfci to trip when a regular recpticle would continue to work but that is not a guarantee, either way having a ground in your tank is a potential for current to flow, a tank is normally isolated and has no potential for current flow. but everyone's an electrician right..

I'm not sure what you were getting at with my post @BeanAnimal I think you were agreeing with me.

Agreeing but taking it a step further by saying that ‘should’ is ‘must’ and not just the pump but ALL equipment that has any contact with the aquarium or is close enough to have contact. The fault path is deadly if you are the bridge between the grounded tank and any non gfci protected fault.

 

[k2-]

So fixed one outlet and seems like there is still stray voltage (my multimeter in NCV mode keeps beeing when closer to tank water).

 

[Reefering1]

Agreeing but taking it a step further by saying that ‘should’ is ‘must’ and not just the pump but ALL equipment that has any contact with the aquarium or is close enough to have contact. The fault path is deadly if you are the bridge between the grounded tank and any non gfci protected fault.

That's something to think about.. so say someone is vacuuming with a old metal kirby, that's plugged into bedroom outlet(not gfci) and faulting to its ground, then reaches into tank "real quick"... the GFCI outlet that the grounding probe is plugged into won't trip.(if I'm understanding correctly?) May as well take the toaster in the bathtub

 

[YOYOYOReefer]

So fixed one outlet and seems like there is still stray voltage (my multimeter in NCV mode keeps beeing when closer to tank water).

It’s not your outlet. Even if you meter reads zero don’t ground to an outlet, find a real ground. You really should get an electrician if you don’t understand this. Don’t put that probe in your tank till you get the grounding issue fixed. Do keep a gcfi on it

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

It’s not your outlet. Even if you meter reads zero don’t ground to an outlet, find a real ground. You really should get an electrician if you don’t understand this. Don’t put that probe in your tank till you get the grounding issue fixed. Do keep a gcfi on it

yes

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

with a good meter you can read milli volts in the air.

 

[BeanAnimal]

So fixed one outlet and seems like there is still stray voltage (my multimeter in NCV mode keeps beeing when closer to tank water).

Let’s all stop using the term ‘stray voltage’ - it is not stray and it is not ‘voltage’. The tingle you feel is current flow. I could be from a fault or it could be induced or even static charge (water pipes, friction) Your NCV can’t likely tell the difference.

You need to measure current and voltage from the water to ground Without a ground probe. Measure also from neutral to ground without an open receptacle. These should be zero. You need to measure continuity from water to ground without a ground probe. There should be none. You need to use 1 receptacle and one device at a time alone, do the same adding (test voltage and current water to ground without probe). 1 device at a time until you find the fault. You need to do this from ONE receptacle for now.


You can also plug everything into a GFCI receptacle 1 device at a time and then additive WITH the ground probe in the tank. The faulting device should trip the GFCI.

 

[BeanAnimal]

That's something to think about.. so say someone is vacuuming with a old metal kirby, that's plugged into bedroom outlet(not gfci) and faulting to its ground, then reaches into tank "real quick"... the GFCI outlet that the grounding probe is plugged into won't trip.(if I'm understanding correctly?) May as well take the toaster in the bathtub

The GFCI does not know about ground. It only knows how much current is being driven through the hot leg and expects the same amount on the neutral leg. If it senses a mismatch, current is going somewhere that it should not be… and it trips.

So yes touching anything on the grounded tank while touching a faulted non-GFCI protected device is a shock or electrocution hazard.

 

[k2-]

Sure thing - will test tomorrow and report back

 

[Reef By Steele]

I guess i was trying to get an idea about is there a way to find this out retroactively - recently 2 BRS heaters (new) and new skimmer seem to be giving issue when during setup it wasn't the case (after turning them on) So trying to understand the causes and if its some kind of systematic thing causing the issue, is there a way to get alerted so while i am away from home my wife has no issues or she knows not to touch the water and inform me.




haha - thats presumptuous but Cool - I don't know everything and not afraid to start with stupid questions.

There is no such thing as a stupid question. That being said when it comes to electricity you can know enough to be dangerous. As a contractor, who started this career after remodeling a home I purchased, I was able to do my own electrical work, but know my limitations. I would assume that if there is voltage in your tank using the volt meter would be by far the best way to determine it. As for your wife, make sure your tank is able to be fully shut down without any issues like sump over filling etc and have her unplug, or wire in a master switch to disconnect all power for her and your piece of mind.

My stray voltage came from Finnex titanium heaters, and I won’t usually dump on a vendor or product, but they absolutely did nothing about the problem because they were slightly out of their generous 6 month warranty. At the time I owned 12 in DT’s and several for heating my mixing water and QT’s. I will never purchase another finnex product. But I determined it in the manner above. Voltage meter and Dixon ext one product at a time.

If you search the forums I think you might find that there is different types of current that you could detect (this is from memory and over a year ago) but things like pumps with coils and magnets I believe can create some voltage readings in the tank, but not the same thing as what is shocking you. Then there is the stray current that is actually “flowing” from a product yet not exactly a short and finally the dangerous current which comes from a faulty item either due to water getting where it doesn’t belong, frayed cord busted seal. These are the items that can result in really bad things.

I detected mine from light “zaps when touching the water. Even the slightest of that, should drive you to find and replace the culprit.

 

[BeanAnimal]

It’s not your outlet. Even if you meter reads zero don’t ground to an outlet, find a real ground. You really should get an electrician if you don’t understand this. Don’t put that probe in your tank till you get the grounding issue fixed. Do keep a gcfi on it

There is nothing wrong with using the receptacle ground in this case.

"Ground" really is not what you think it is. While, in theory your AC power is delivered from the power plant over a "hot" wire and that circuit is completed via "ground" (the earth) back to the power plant, this is not how it really works.

Your house is fed from a transformer via at least 1 hot leg and 1 neutral leg. the "neutral" is the return conductor in reference to the power company, instead of relying on "earth" to complete the circuit. The ensures a predictable difference in potential.

You home's electrical panel is fed with the HOT and NEUTRAL coming from the power plant. As an added measure of safety, the transformer on the pole and your electric panel tie (bond) that NEUTRAL to EARTH. This is your "ground".

This is typically done with 2 or more 10' (or longer) ground rods driven into the soil at your home and then connected to your cold water pipe AND your electric panel's metal 'can' as well as the NEUTRAL in your panel.

The middle (round) prong on your receptacle is therefore BONDED to the NEUTRAL in your panel AND your cold water pipes AND the EARTH and by proxy your neighbors GROUND, etc.

It should be noted that (as stated above) the power company supplies the NEUTRAL because EARTH ground is not reliable (I don't want to get into the details).

Where we run into major problems is when the POWER COMPANY has a poor NEUTRAL connection at the pole or your meter and EARTH GROUND actually has to work as the current return path. This creates a dangerous situation when YOU can easily become part of that return path if the earth ground is not perfect.

It follows that if you are able to read a current flow between GROUND and NEUTRAL on your receptacle, then something is wrong with your grounding system. This can be a poor bond in your panel or the pole or a faulting device some where on the same circuit. This is part of what one of those little plug in receptacle checkers attempts to diagnose.

Likewise, if you have equipment plugged into your tank from DIFFERENT circuits in your home and feel a tingle/shock but DON'T feel it if everything is plugged into the same circuit, that would indicate a fault of some type on one of the circuits (typically a poor neutral connection). Current can flow through things like grounded metal heater shells... or metal heater shells fed by a two prong cord where the shell is in contact with either conductor, etc.

In most cases "shocks" when placing your hands in your tank are from a powerhead or heater where the insulation or seal is broken down enough to allow a small amount of current to pass. You typically would not notice unless you are barefoot on a concrete or tile floor or touching a grounded metal fixture like your lighting or metal return pump casing, etc.

I would NOT keep dipping my hand into the tank to test for the tingle. I would put EVERYTHING on a single GFCI - ground the tank water and use process of elimination to figure out what actually trips the GFCI. It takes very little to stop the heart of cause it to spasm, kicking off a heart attack. It may tingle when testing, but who knows when one of those tests results in a serious shock.

 

[Harpo]

WOW this is very informative

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

this is why I should stay out of these electrical debates because everyone is an electrician, but I will only say that the "power plant" doesn't supply a neutral they are made up on sight, most of everything else is bs too, good luck

 

[BeanAnimal]

Ohh and to clarify above -- I would not keep my system on a single GFCI, but it is useful for troubleshooting in some instances.

this is why I should stay out of these electrical debates because everyone is an electrician, but I will only say that the "power plant" doesn't supply a neutral they are made up on sight, most of everything else is bs too, good luck

Yes they are "made up on site" - shall we explain the entire technical underpinnings of our power grid and how EXACTLY power is generated, distributed, stepped up and down, transformed to two 180 degree out of phase hot legs and a return conductor derived from a single phase of 3? Maybe explaining Delta - Delta, Delta - Wye, Wye-Wye, etc. and center taps will help illustrate the point to the guy with the bad powerhead or pump? I mean after all, it is important for a reefer to understand transformer secondaries and the wyes. While we are at it shall we discuss the typical distance between grounding points on the grid, the resistance of earth and other factors that affect how electrons flow from the generating station to your home and back... I mean I think a reefer should understand 3-phase distribution, phase angle and power factor too.

OR

Can we just boil it down into a much simpler form and indicate that the power company supplies a home with two basic differences in potential, HOT and NEUTRAL and we bond that NEUTRAL to "ground" at our panel board to derive our ground reference and that the NEUTRAL and its BOND to the ECG is far more important than the (often useless) ground rods and water pipe bond... as they often are terrible actual "grounds".

Say you don't want to be part of electrical threads while showing that you want to be the smart guy in electrical threads by telling other people that their comments are BS

Want to go to to toe on theory, practice or code? DM me and we can debate who is smarter until the cows come home.