Seeking advice - Moving forward after Ich / Velvet

Fasthandsslowmind · Jun 6, 2023

Hi all,

I’m hoping for some insight & advice into my next moves here. My scenario:

On my newly setup 265G peninsula, I’ve been stocking fish slowly over a few months. Latest addition was a Purple Tang from TSM, and total stock, in order introduced:

2x Blotched Anthias
CB multibar angel
2x clown pair (transfer from my established tank)
CB marine Betta (transfer)
Yellow banded possum wrasse (transfer)
White tail bristletooth (LFS purchase, did not QT)
Mandarin (same)
Purple tang

Soon after I introduced the Purple tang, who arrived very healthy and large from TSM, I noticed white spots. They would come and go, some days being completely absent. They were mostly, but not always, around his mouth. Still eating a ton and very active.

Weeks passed, the white spots came and went, and came again. Everyone had been in the tank for at least a few months and was eating like pigs and very happy.

Then things started to take a turn for the worse. First the multibar also showed spots. His appetite slowed. He was a pretty small fish, but feisty, and he was obviously slowing down. I tried in vain to catch him for copper treatment, but my tank makes that difficult. He died after not eating for a few days. Never did observe any swimming into the powerheads. This is a sensitive species so at this point I still think it was Ich.

Then a few weeks later, things rapidly go downhill, and I lost one anthias, then one clown, then the other Anthias, all separated by 3-6 days.

I was able to capture the Purple tang (who was always eating and active through the whole ordeal), the Bristletooth,(who was certainly sick and on the way out) and the remaining clown. I got them in a hospital tank for the last few weeks at 2.5ppm Copper Power and they’re now looking and eating great. Today marks 14 days in the copper.

The remaining fish are in the reef and I can’t catch them to save my life. The betta shows no sign of disease (It’s easy to observe him close up with a magnifier) and has been his usual self. The mandarin has visual signs of disease, spots, but otherwise eats and swims. The Pygmy wrasse, like the betta, is doing fine.

SOOOO all that brings us here - What now? I wouldn’t mind going fallow, although keeping 6 fish (2 tangs!) in my 30G hospital tank for 12 weeks might be a problem, but that currently seems impossible due to my inability to capture the Betta, wrasse, and mandarin.

Maybe reintroduce the 3 in the hospital tank after 2 weeks with no symptoms and hope for the best?

I still don’t know if it’s Ich of velvet, or both. I’m guessing both, and my LFS guy agrees. I’d be surprised to see Ich kill two healthy anthias and a clown. The multibar I could believe.

PLEASE, if you’re knowledgable and experienced in this area, let me know what you know!

Fasthandsslowmind · Jun 6, 2023

Apologies for the graphic photo, but if it helps….

This is the smaller of the two anthias, just before he passed. 12 hours earlier, he was eating well and only showed visual symptoms, nothing behavioral.

The tang, on his bad days, had cloudy eyes as well.

Jay Hemdal · Jun 6, 2023

Did you see rapid breathing in the days before any of the fish died?

This is a tough situation - the betta, mandarin and wrasse are fairly ich resistant, but can pass it on. Here is an idea, I’m not 100% sold on this just a thought:
Get a big UV for your display and start ich management in there with those fish. Pull the affected ones and treat with copper. Having had ich, they may gain some immunity. Then - after 30 days of copper and two weeks of isolation, decide if the fish in your DT are “disease free”. If so, then add the treated fish back and go full ich management - UV, great diet and water, nightly sand siphoning, even peroxide additions.
Jay

vetteguy53081 · Jun 6, 2023

Also, please post pics under white lighting

Fasthandsslowmind · Jun 6, 2023

Jay Hemdal said:
Did you see rapid breathing in the days before any of the fish died?

This is a tough situation - the betta, mandarin and wrasse are fairly ich resistant, but can pass it on. Here is an idea, I’m not 100% sold on this just a thought:
Get a big UV for your display and start ich management in there with those fish. Pull the affected ones and treat with copper. Having had ich, they may gain some immunity. Then - after 30 days of copper and two weeks of isolation, decide if the fish in your DT are “disease free”. If so, then add the treated fish back and go full ich management - UV, great diet and water, nightly sand siphoning, even peroxide additions.
Jay

Good question - I think they did, but to be honest, it’s hard for me to tell.

Just before I pulled him out, and when he was looking his worst, the PT would swim -sort of- into the power head, hovering about the rock in front of it.

As for heavy breathing, I’d have to say yes, but not with 100% confidence.

They all did become more reclusive as they neared the end, but I suppose that doesn’t help.

Fasthandsslowmind · Jun 6, 2023

I failed to mention -

I did attempt a 30-40 minute Formalin dip (had some on hand in anticipation of adding a school of anthias) on the multibar and one of the anthias, a few weeks apart.

Both fish were pretty rough before the dip, and in both cases, the fish passed away shortly after the dip (1-2 days). It seemed to provide temporary relief for the multibar, and raised my hopes, but he didn’t make it. I think in both cases, the dip was done too late.

EliMelly · Jun 6, 2023

Jay Hemdal said:
Did you see rapid breathing in the days before any of the fish died?

This is a tough situation - the betta, mandarin and wrasse are fairly ich resistant, but can pass it on. Here is an idea, I’m not 100% sold on this just a thought:
Get a big UV for your display and start ich management in there with those fish. Pull the affected ones and treat with copper. Having had ich, they may gain some immunity. Then - after 30 days of copper and two weeks of isolation, decide if the fish in your DT are “disease free”. If so, then add the treated fish back and go full ich management - UV, great diet and water, nightly sand siphoning, even peroxide additions.
Jay

Hi Jay, what is the recommended amount of peroxide to add for a tank with Ich?

Jay Hemdal · Jun 6, 2023

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EliMelly said:
Hi Jay, what is the recommended amount of peroxide to add for a tank with Ich?

I would use polyp lab medic, as the dose is worked out. Don’t use it as a sole medication, I feel it must be used as one part of ich management. And then, management doesn’t always work.
Jay

GARRIGA · Jun 6, 2023

Worth mentioning that UV should be sized for parasites and not bacteria. Being the cautious type, I would add two on separate returns, if possible, because management might be the best solution vs eradication for many with existing tanks not having the facility to house it's occupants for extended periods without potentially introducing other issues due to stress. Plus who wants to maintain another system(s) that's mostly bare tanks and keep strict copper tolerances? I'm also a believer in building immunity.

EliMelly · Jun 6, 2023

Jay Hemdal said:
I

I would use polyp lab medic, as the dose is worked out. Don’t use it as a sole medication, I feel it must be used as one part of ich management. And then, management doesn’t always work.
Jay

Got it, I was just looking into that. I believe it says the UV needs to be off for it to work. Is polyp lab a better option than leaving the UV on or would it be wiser to keep it on and off?

Fasthandsslowmind · Jun 6, 2023

So is there any use in attempting eradication with the 3 asymptomatic fish still in my DT? I still have 2-3 weeks for the tangs & clown in the copper treatment, so maybe meanwhile I can medicate the DT with something (Medic + Peroxide+ elevated temps?

I REALLY wanted to stay away from UV sterilizers. The expense and added plumbing, plus the end goal of operating a mixed reef in a more natural method is strongly pulling me away from going that route, but maybe I don’t have a choice.

vetteguy53081 · Jun 6, 2023

Fasthandsslowmind said:
So is there any use in attempting eradication with the 3 asymptomatic fish still in my DT? I still have 2-3 weeks for the tangs & clown in the copper treatment, so maybe meanwhile I can medicate the DT with something (Medic + Peroxide+ elevated temps?

I REALLY wanted to stay away from UV sterilizers. The expense and added plumbing, plus the end goal of operating a mixed reef in a more natural method is strongly pulling me away from going that route, but maybe I don’t have a choice.

UV does not fully eradicate but will address what passes through the channel of the unit. It is a belief it kills all parasites and will NOT address what is pre-existing and there is resistance, not immunity with disease. Good water quality and diet are part of management and Prevention is the strongest part of management. If display is left without fish for 6-8 weeks, the lifecycle of ich, even velvet is stopped and the cysts/tromonts die off. No need to treat. If you wish to- Ruby rally pro or Medic will help with assurance but medic is Peroxide salt based and no need for additional peroxide.

GARRIGA · Jun 6, 2023

Was all about eradication but have since changed my mind based on how I’ve handled it in FW, how I’ve managed my commercial breeding collection of boas under the supervision of my vet and other sources including HumbleFish. I think this video pretty much rounds up how I’m approaching it now and plan was to use micron filters or DE in QT but that’s becoming to problematic and way more effort than I typically apply to anything. Was even planning on using micron filters in the display by stepping down to 5 microns. Still planning on going down to 20 micron knowing that as it clogs that will filter out smaller particulates but gone is the notion of eradication. Plus Paul B is onto something with guy loading and just makes more sense plus aligns with the three decades of keeping and breeding boas. At the point I see my vet now once every ten years and otherwise let my animals fend fir themselves while spending more effort in providing stress free and clean living plus they whole rats which take care of the gut.

Jay Hemdal · Jun 6, 2023

EliMelly said:
Got it, I was just looking into that. I believe it says the UV needs to be off for it to work. Is polyp lab a better option than leaving the UV on or would it be wiser to keep it on and off?

Sorry! I didn’t realize medic and UV were not compatible! If I had to choose one, I’d opt for using the oversized UV.
Jay

Fasthandsslowmind · Jun 6, 2023

I wonder if an Ozone reactor would be as effective as a UV sterilizer in this regard?

Jay Hemdal · Jun 6, 2023

Fasthandsslowmind said:
I wonder if an Ozone reactor would be as effective as a UV sterilizer in this regard?

Ozone is tricky to dose at a level high enough to control protozoans. Unlike UV that leaves no residual, ozone produces oxidants that travel out into the tank.
I like to use ozone in low doses to improve water quality.
Jay

Fasthandsslowmind · Jun 6, 2023

Gotcha. I’ve long been tempted by the Avast reactor, which has a carbon post filter to prevent excessive ozone release into the tank, but I imagine you’re correct. Biggest advertised benefit is water clarity, so it may do little or nothing for parasite managment.

Jay Hemdal · Jun 6, 2023

Fasthandsslowmind said:
Gotcha. I’ve long been tempted by the Avast reactor, which has a carbon post filter to prevent excessive ozone release into the tank, but I imagine you’re correct. Biggest advertised benefit is water clarity, so it may do little or nothing for parasite managment.

I’m pretty sure that carbon only removes free ozone. Ozone oxidants require a reducing agent to remove them, like sodium thiosulfate. Carbon *might* act as a catalyst for that reaction, but I don’t think so.
Jay