Red Sea Tank Fails, AGAIN! Any Recommendations?

[A_Blind_Reefer]

Look we are all expressing some ideas on the cause. I have fabricated both glass and acrylic tanks over the decades I participated in the industry. I would never build a stand or cabinet that did not support the entire tank bottom especially when using rimless glass or acrylic. Next I would assure that the stand was rigid and could not deform with the pressure exerted by the tank and contents. Adding a series a small adjustable feet that are under rated to the entire load is not good design. Tell me how someone can adjust the back feet when the tank is up against the wall for example? Without experience how can you tell the feet have equal pressure? Now what kind of flooring are you placing the load on does it deform like carket or vynal flooring does? Couple that with all the movement in the knock down furniture cam locks and you have an Ikea stand that is not going to handle the weight if there is some mis adjustment of the tiny feet. You need strong structure with very little deflection to handle these loads. These stands are the failure point in this tank design in my experience. MDF should never be used for a stand ever due to the swelling when they get just a little wet. I have seen MDF cause panel failures on All Glass framed tanks after the owner spilled small amounts of water while cleaning the glass. I also witnessed a multi base failure in a customer's store that wanted to save money and had a local cabinet company install laminate over MDF in large retail store. He rejected the welded tubular steel, powdered coated stands with weight rated leveling feet I offered in the bid. In just a few months from use he called in a panic because the bases were swelling and getting soft! I had to disassemble the entire store and replace the MDF with new steel stands at his expense. The tanks were all acrylic by the way an may be the reason he had no leaks. These stands are not adequate for the long term use on most aquarist in my experience.

The weight of all these tanks should be directed down the long axis of the tank perimeter to the floor without exception. This would prevent the failures associated with these rimless tank designs. The custom tank designers use much better stand design in all their custom tanks for a reason. If I bought either RedSea or WaterBox or any of the mass produced tanks I would just buy the tank only and throw the stand away. The stands are probably the flaw in the design in my opinion and experience.

I’ve mentioned the feet thing in the past as well. I don’t know about other models but on my tank you have to remove the sump floor panels to adjust the feet from inside the cabinet before you install the sump and plumbing. The funny thing (well to me anyways) is that I pulled my skimmer out today for cleaning…..I know my vision sucks and all but I swear the four feet on my rs rsk900 (which is just a few pounds) are the same size as the feet on my rs 750xxl. Which really doesn’t mean anything, but it made me laugh thinking of these threads while cleaning!

 

[BeanAnimal]

May I ask how many feet are on these?

 

[MnFish1]

May I ask how many feet are on these?

How many feet are on what? each tank has a different number (each size)

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

May I ask how many feet are on these?

Not enough, ha. Not entirely sure but going off my memory…which isn’t entirely there, I think around twenty on my 750. They are probably metric but were maybe 1/4-20 with a half inch or so diameter foot

 

[BeanAnimal]

So 200 gallons ~2000 pounds
20 feet = 100 pounds per foot.
Not too bad unless all feet are not making contact.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

So 200 gallons ~2000 pounds
20 feet = 100 pounds per foot.
Not too bad unless all feet are not making contact.

Making contact, equal-ish load bearing, and squareness of stand. The acknowledged failures on the 750 were a snapped bottom pane, front to back, exactly where the vertical divider between sump and electronics section is. This was supposedly due to a fulcrum effect from the ends of the tank sagging ever so slightly (it doesn’t take much) and why the retrofit kit came with wood blocking pieces to be installed tightly up against the underside of the wood top at both ends. The other failures were the front pane seam blowing out just to the right of where the two sump doors meet due to the top sagging and why the retrofit kit came with the jack screw brace to strengthen the span. I’m sure the rear panel gets some (speculative) support from the overflow box and lack of door cutouts.

 

[Reefer1978]

I will add to the "engineering" part of the comments from myself and others above with context to trimmed vs trimless.

Trim (top and bottom) in general, act to prevent seam separation by (in essence) clamping the seams together at their extents and in the case of the bottom, along the length. This should be obvious.

However what is also extremely important is that fact that the TOP trim (be it plastic or eurobrace) forms a partial (not ideal, but partial) torsion box out of the tank by transferring stress from loaded sections to a broader area, as well as stiffening the long axis of the panels and preventing the entire system from racking (putting stress on the seams).

A braced aquarium is many times stronger than an unbraced aquarium. Seams can't peel apart and stress on the seams is somewhat mitigated by the stiffness imparted by the frame.

I do't think you are 100% correct. You are right in one sense, all pre-build standard size tanks use moulded trim, some thick and solid, and it does add to strength. All custom tanks use a custom cut trim base and top. It adds no strength at all, it's there for 2 purposes. protect glass edges / even out load if glass is not cut perfectly, and hide sloppy silicone jobs. This is first hand from a custom tank manufacturer (one of the biggest in NY Metro Area, I won't get into details which one).

The top is just ornamental. On my old tank I ordered from them it even came off, it was held to the tank by a tiny bead if silicone.

So in summary, molded standard size bracing - I agree with you, custom tanks, I do not.

 

[Reefer1978]

On a separate note, came across a FB post where a 1-yearold WaterBox leaked (170.4/5) and apparently WB did nothing about it, not even provide a replacement tank. Grass is not greener on the other side.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I do't think you are 100% correct. You are right in one sense, all pre-build standard size tanks use moulded trim, some thick and solid, and it does add to strength. All custom tanks use a custom cut trim base and top. It adds no strength at all, it's there for 2 purposes. protect glass edges / even out load if glass is not cut perfectly, and hide sloppy silicone jobs. This is first hand from a custom tank manufacturer (one of the biggest in NY Metro Area, I won't get into details which one).

The top is just ornamental. On my old tank I ordered from them it even came off, it was held to the tank by a tiny bead if silicone.

So in summary, molded standard size bracing - I agree with you, custom tanks, I do not.

Why are we splitting hairs here on semantics? Cosmetic trim is just that, cosmetic. Functional trim, be it molded, eurobrace or substantially stiff is just that, functional and strengthens the system.

 

[BeanAnimal]

On a separate note, came across a FB post where a 1-yearold WaterBox leaked (170.4/5) and apparently WB did nothing about it, not even provide a replacement tank. Grass is not greener on the other side.

I don’t see 10, 50 or 100, etc waterbox leak threads…. So warranty or customer service may not be greener, but system integrity may be. Only time will tell I guess.

 

[Reefer1978]

Why are we splitting hairs here on semantics? Cosmetic trim is just that, cosmetic. Functional trim, be it molded, eurobrace or substantially stiff is just that, functional and strengthens the system.

Just adding clarity in case someone reads a pretty generic description.

I don’t see 10, 50 or 100, etc waterbox leak threads…. So warranty or customer service may not be greener, but system integrity may be. Only time will tell I guess.

You also don't see sale numbers comparisons.

 

[nuxx]

Is it general consensus that the stands are the main culprits here?

My larger tanks always had welded steel stands with complete contact to the floor.

Wonder if issues with the feet would be enough to cause the issues. Are they generally just the larger tanks as well?

 

[BeanAnimal]

You also don't see sale numbers comparisons.

Everyone keeps going in circles with this.

I can only base my responses on what I see. 30+ years in the SW hobby since dialup BBS days, and never have I seen this concentration of failure reports regarding one brand, let alone that many failure reports to begin with. Most of those being the result of clearly gross user error...

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

Is it general consensus that the stands are the main culprits here?

My larger tanks always had welded steel stands with complete contact to the floor.

Wonder if issues with the feet would be enough to cause the issues. Are they generally just the larger tanks as well?

Not solely the feet but a flat pack, ikea style stand can’t hold a candle to a solid piece of heavy duty furniture or welded subframe in my opinion. Obviously shipping and storage of a huge stand was a major concern. I remember back in the day the lfs had new stands and aquariums stacked two or three high and would toss them around like Donkey Kong threw barrels.

 

[nuxx]

Not solely the feet but a flat pack, ikea style stand can’t hold a candle to a solid piece of heavy duty furniture or welded subframe in my opinion. Obviously shipping and storage of a huge stand was a major concern. I remember back in the day the lfs had new stands and aquariums stacked two or three high and would toss them around like Donkey Kong threw barrels.

Yeah didn't think about that...

I know it's a PITA and maybe won't look as nice, but welded stands are cheap (plenty of welders) and easy to design and can take all the weight.

I totally understand just buying a full turn key system though...

 

[BeanAnimal]

Is it general consensus that the stands are the main culprits here?

My larger tanks always had welded steel stands with complete contact to the floor.

Wonder if issues with the feet would be enough to cause the issues. Are they generally just the larger tanks as well?

I don't think we can determine what the culprit is. Stand setup issues, stand design issues, tank design issues, etc.

If I were betting, it would be (as mentioned numerous times) not a single causal issue, but a combination of common real world issues that result in failure.

So not the light weight brake shoes, not the narrow wheel base, not the front biased weight distribution, not the slightly above average speed compared to design, not the overloaded trunk... but all of those things combined that were not accounted for during engineering but happen every day. Take away any one of them and the car doesn't fail in the corner.

 

[FlyPenFly]

Everyone keeps going in circles with this.

I can only base my responses on what I see. 30+ years in the SW hobby since dialup BBS days, and never have I seen this concentration of failure reports regarding one brand, let alone that many failure reports to begin with. Most of those being the result of clearly gross user error...

Seeing all the failures definitely has dissuaded me from considering any large RedSea tank in the future or recommending them.

Unless they start showing serious over-building of their stands and tanks, I would never look at them again. Especially for the prices they charge.

 

[nuxx]

I don't think we can determine what the culprit is. Stand setup issues, stand design issues, tank design issues, etc.

If I were betting, it would be (as mentioned numerous times) not a single causal issue, but a combination of common real world issues that result in failure.

So not the light weight brake shoes, not the narrow wheel base, not the front biased weight distribution, not the slightly above average speed compared to design, not the overloaded trunk... but all of those things combined that were not accounted for during engineering but happen every day. Take away any one of them and the car doesn't fail in the corner.

Make total sense

BTW : Thanks for your design, used it on my 470... not sure how we would have lived with a loud tank 20 feet away from our living room...

 

[areefer01]

I don't think we can determine what the culprit is.

Of course we can't. There is only half data present here and never a root cause or closure. Not sure why it is taking 300+ posts to see this.

Also not sure if you remember but there was a series of failures on Marineland 300 DD's. I do not claim or care to search percentages to see if it compares to this thread. Just remember reading plenty on them back in the day.

Edit: I am fully aware that people here are working with what data they have and the other half is held in check by manufacturer

 

[MnFish1]

So 200 gallons ~2000 pounds
20 feet = 100 pounds per foot.
Not too bad unless all feet are not making contact.

This is a good point - and is an extreme disadvantage of having the adjustable feet IMHO. Why? In our house the area at the back of the tank is somewhat more uneven - and once the aquarium and stand is 'where its supposed to be' - there is no way to adjust the back feet. The ones on the side and front can be - the back cannot - even if you wanted to - without moving the tank and stand (which of course negates the idea of having all the feet down. Now - some will say - well if the tank is level, you know the feet are right - except - you don't know that. I tried to use kind of a plumb line to determine how to adjust the back feet to match the floor. Then - one the tank is filled (and the sump) - the weight means they need to be adjusted again - and you cannot adjust (or see) - the feet in the back of the tank. In other words my tank is level - but I have no clue whether the back feet are actually contacting the floor. - except at the corners.