Possible solution to end RTN forever?!?

[MnFish1]

As already speculated and from what I’ve read in white papers regarding RTN, environmental conditions and damage trigger adverse conditions, advise conditions effect the bacteria’s surrounding the coral and tissue. This is where it’s iffy, the corals tissue is comprised allowing the bad bacteria to attack the tissue and then protozoans step in and finish the job.

That’s been my take of all the reading I’ve done so far.

Or it could just be a primary bacterial infection - and the ciliates are a clean up crew. At least we can read/analyze and question the methods/results/conclusions/logic of the published papers (none of which say ciliates are responsible for White Band Disease). We can't do that here - and thats the problem (IMHO). I tried t0 ask some questions as to how the product would be used before - received no answer. I tried to get some statistics as to how often the product is successful - received no answer. Frankly I'm not sure what the discussion is about at all at this point.

The videos that @Reefahholic posted were compelling - watching all of those ciliates attacking that (must have been a very small piece of) coral. Then I got to thinking - how is it know 'what' those ciliates are? Is it really possible to identify them exactly? etc etc.

@reefaholic - as to not seeing bacteria eating coral - check out the studies - there are plenty of examples. And you would not see them with the type of microscope that is used in the videos against a solid piece of coral. The way to identify bacteria for the most part is not looking under a microscope - all tank/reef water will have bacteria in it. The way is - take a sample of damage area - look at it under an electron microscope or other high powered instrument, take a sample of damaged area and culture that in various media (which allows identification of the bacteria responsible) due to staining properties and antibiotic sensitivity, or do DNA analysis and look for patterns. All of these things have been done - in 2014 and later. The results are in. Bacteria are there. Antibiotics that kill bacteria stop RTN. Antibiotics that kill ciliates slow RTN. Antibiotics that kill both bacteria and ciliates STOP RTN.

Lastly - reading the website - the ingredients are not listed - but it says its contains 'all natural floral extracts'. Well - nightshade (for those of you that don't know what it is you can google it) is also a natural floral ingredient - as is aspirin. So again - I have no clue - but I would really appreciate the answer from Dr. D - at least for these couple questions:

1. What is the success rate in treating RTN with this product.
2. Reading the website - it seems to me that the recommendation is not a 1 time treatment in the tank - but an addition every 2 weeks (I believe (not positive that I understood completely) that Prime Certified Coral sellers need to agree to repeated dosing) - is this what you would expect in a home aquarium as well?
3. Do you have any before and after pictures of coral treated with the products compared to control corals?

 

[MnFish1]

Any links to literature about the Philaster ciliate being parasitic?

SO the definition of a parasite is :By definition, parasites are those animals which occupy the last niche, i.e. live in or on another species, their host.

Some of these ciliates are not 'obligate parasites' (like cryptokaryon that needs a host to survive) - but they are facultative parasites. A facultative parasite is an organism that may resort to parasitic activity, but does not absolutely rely on any host for completion of its life cycle.

Nagleria fowleri (that terrible infection we read about now and then in the paper where a child has jumped into a pond and a couple days later has the 'brain eating disease') is a facultative parasite - it lives quite happily in a pond doing nothing - but if you inhale it into your nose you may develop a big problem.

 

[MnFish1]

ON a slightly different note - and @Reefahholic I dont want to hijack your thread - how do you think this product differs from 'Revive'

 

[Reefahholic]

Where is this from?

It’s an article written by Terry D. Bartelme

References

1. Blasiola GC: Diseases of Ornamental Marine Fishes. In Gratzek JB, Matthews JR editors: Aquariology: the science of fish health management, Morris Plains , NJ., 1992, Tetra Press, pp. 275-300.
2. Bassleer G: Uronema marinum a new and common parasite on tropical saltwater fishes, Freshwater Mar Aquar 6:14:78-79, 1983.
3. Cheung PJ, Nigrelli RF, Ruggieri GD: Studies of the morphology of Uronema marinum Dujardin (Ciliata: Uronematidae) with a description of the histopathology of the infection in marine fishes, J Fish Dis 3:295-303, 1980.

 

[MnFish1]

@Prime Coral I guess after spending the day in bed with a torn meniscus - when I was in the MRI today - I thought a bit about my participation here. To Dr. D - Im sorry if my posts made you feel like your information wasnt interesting or insignificant - I thought it was fantastic seeing the ciliates chomping on (something coral related). I only got involved when I thought some of the comments (its the cure, its the cause, its fact, its been proven) seemed to overstate the evidence.

Personally - I learned a heck of a lot about ciliates and coral and RTN today (by googling it myself) - and for that I thank you a lot. I appreciate that you took time out of your day to try to answer some questions. I think it comes down to not who is right or wrong - but its an interesting topic to discuss. Like I've said I learned something about discussing these types of things in a public forum - hopefully everyone here has. Again its not about who is right or wrong its about sharing information everyone can use.

I would hate to see someone use a product in a tank for example - and have 'all ciliates' killed - which then causes some other imbalance or problem. Even if this takes care of RTN (I dont know) - what happens if it causes other long-term problems - especially with the long-term use recommended on your website. Again - there is no data to decide. So I hope you understand the questioning - not in a negative personal way - but instead a 'help us understand' why this is beneficial.

 

[MnFish1]

It’s an article written by Terry D. Bartelme

References

1. Blasiola GC: Diseases of Ornamental Marine Fishes. In Gratzek JB, Matthews JR editors: Aquariology: the science of fish health management, Morris Plains , NJ., 1992, Tetra Press, pp. 275-300.
2. Bassleer G: Uronema marinum a new and common parasite on tropical saltwater fishes, Freshwater Mar Aquar 6:14:78-79, 1983.
3. Cheung PJ, Nigrelli RF, Ruggieri GD: Studies of the morphology of Uronema marinum Dujardin (Ciliata: Uronematidae) with a description of the histopathology of the infection in marine fishes, J Fish Dis 3:295-303, 1980.

thanks - I meant the specific quote.

 

[MnFish1]

-says no legit scientist ever

A mad legitimate scientist might... Not defending the comments but everyone - including legitimate scientists have feelings and emotions

Edit - by mad I meant angry

 

[Reefahholic]

SO the definition of a parasite is :By definition, parasites are those animals which occupy the last niche, i.e. live in or on another species, their host.

Some of these ciliates are not 'obligate parasites' (like cryptokaryon that needs a host to survive) - but they are facultative parasites. A facultative parasite is an organism that may resort to parasitic activity, but does not absolutely rely on any host for completion of its life cycle.

Nagleria fowleri (that terrible infection we read about now and then in the paper where a child has jumped into a pond and a couple days later has the 'brain eating disease') is a facultative parasite - it lives quite happily in a pond doing nothing - but if you inhale it into your nose you may develop a big problem.

Key word...some.

So you do realize that some ciliates are parasitic right?

Let me ask you a question. What’s the difference between a Parasite, Protozoa, and a Ciliate?

 

[Reefahholic]

ON a slightly different note - and @Reefahholic I dont want to hijack your thread - how do you think this product differs from 'Revive'

I have no clue. Never used it and don’t know what’s in either of them.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Gentlemen I have no words. My disappointment continues. Well of to another thread. Good luck getting answers after running off the person who had to spend hours defending himself just to make a point. It might have been better to use honey than vinegar to get the answers you so much wanted to hear.

I did in my short life manage a dental laboratory which was tasked with repeatable results for the doctors who owned it. See in a laboratory you have to have repeated results in an effort to treat patients successfully. That implies using techniques that are repeatable as often as possible. I am glad MnFish1 mentioned the doctor that discovered a link to bacteria and ulcers. He was treated like a loon by most of the profession until low and behold some listened and had repeatable success with their patients that required no surgery...what a shock! By that time he literally had hundreds of cases with patients that recovered without surgery. Still progress takes time due to the inherent stubbornness of academia. Please reread the quote from the Doctor that lead the New England Journal of Medicine it should be alarming to all of us. I can tell you other tales that support her claims but I digress.

Next consider the tale of Dr. Bruce W. Halstead who was the worlds leading authority on poisonous fish and sea snakes. He was by profession a physician who was attracted to fish in such a way it nearly killed his medical career during medical school. But certain individuals needed his expertise like the U.S. Navy and Jacque Cousteau. Next thing you know he is a academic and research rock star and he is featured on many training videos for the Navy and with Jacque Cousteau. I wish I could say his life ended well but I will let you discover that for yourselves. The point is he was not trained to any degree for fish....it was just an area of interest that lead to very vital discoveries for the Navy and others. His intellect and curiosity sent him down that path and as a result many lives may have been saved by his knowledge of the toxins.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

It might have been better to use honey than vinegar to get the answers you so much wanted to hear.

This... I thought about what I wrote earlier and this is what I should have said instead. Pretty much sums up how I felt.

 

[Scott Campbell]

Key word...some.

So you do realize that some ciliates are parasitic right?

Let me ask you a question. What’s the difference between a Parasite, Protozoa, and a Ciliate?

I know some ciliates are parasitic, but most are not. I have not been able to find literature indicating the Philaster ciliates are parasitic. And you don't seem able to show me references proving they are. If the ciliates are not parasitic - that seems rather relevant to this discussion.

I believe ciliates are a sub-group of protozoa. And "parasitic" is a descriptive term referring to any organism that on occasion makes use of a host organism. An animal that feeds on dead or dying animals (like a vulture) would not be considered a "parasite". At least this is my understanding. So if the Philaster ciliates are not parasitic then it seems less likely to me that they are the cause of RTN and more likely they are the clean-up crew. Killing off your tank's protozoan clean-up crew might not be a good idea.

 

[MnFish1]

Key word...some.

So you do realize that some ciliates are parasitic right?

Let me ask you a question. What’s the difference between a Parasite, Protozoa, and a Ciliate?

Sorry im not going to bite into this. Respond to the research already presented.

 

[MnFish1]

Key word...some.

So you do realize that some ciliates are parasitic right?

Let me ask you a question. What’s the difference between a Parasite, Protozoa, and a Ciliate?

Actually - I will suggest that you google these things - why should someone else do it. I will start though - some protozoa are parasites. some ciliates are parasites. Some protozoa are parasites,. Some protozoa are not parasites,.,,

What is your point

 

[Reefahholic]

Just looking at that one study they suggest RTN or WBD (white band disease) is caused by microorganisms rather than by physiological stress.

The study goes on to say that RTN/STN is a polymicrobial disease associated with multiple specific microorganisms that are consistently associated with diseased samples but absent or undetectable in healthy samples. They say that up to 16 specific microorganisms have been found.

14 bacteria, one archaea, and one ciliate.

Anybody wanna guess which ciliate that was? Yep, it was Philaster Lucinda. So we know this guy is consistently on scene.

Then it says, “One of these, the ciliate Philaster Lucinda has recently been shown to be consistently associated with the coral disease WS in the Pacific and within Aquaria, which all have identical visible and histopathological disease signs, namely the advancing band of cleared skeleton immediately adjacent to visible normal tissues.”

But they still think it’s unlikely to be a primary pathogen of RTN/STN. Which really means nothing to me, because they misidentified a pathogen during the study.

Can anybody help me to understand this? This is why they think that’s it’s not a primary pathogen:

“However, selective elimination of this pathogen using the antibiotic metronidazole failed to arrest disease lesion progression in controlled experiments, indicating that the Philaster ciliate is unlikely to be a primary pathogen of WBD.”

How would this make it unlikely? Not sure I understand.

 

[Reefahholic]

Actually - I will suggest that you google these things - why should someone else do it. I will start though - some protozoa are parasites. some ciliates are parasites. Some protozoa are parasites,. Some protozoa are not parasites,.,,

What is your point

Well, I was just making a point. You really didn’t understand what you were taking about even though you google it. It’s ok though. Let’s move on.

 

[marlinmon]

Well, I was just making a point. You really didn’t understand what you were taking about even though you google it. It’s ok though. Let’s move on.

Mods gonna close the thread if the back-and-forth doesn't cease soon...

 

[MnFish1]

Just looking at that one study they suggest RTN or WBD (white band disease) is caused by microorganisms rather than by physiological stress.

The study goes on to say that RTN/STN is a polymicrobial disease associated with multiple specific microorganisms that are consistently associated with diseased samples but absent or undetectable in healthy samples. They say that up to 16 specific microorganisms have been found.

14 bacteria, one archaea, and one ciliate.

Anybody wanna guess which ciliate that was? Yep, it was Philaster Lucinda. So we know this guy is consistently on scene.

Then it says, “One of these, the ciliate Philaster Lucinda has recently been shown to be consistently associated with the coral disease WS in the Pacific and within Aquaria, which all have identical visible and histopathological disease signs, namely the advancing band of cleared skeleton immediately adjacent to visible normal tissues.”

But they still think it’s unlikely to be a primary pathogen of RTN/STN. Which really means nothing to me, because they misidentified a pathogen during the study.

Can anybody help me to understand this? This is why they think that’s it’s not a primary pathogen:

“However, selective elimination of this pathogen using the antibiotic metronidazole failed to arrest disease lesion progression in controlled experiments, indicating that the Philaster ciliate is unlikely to be a primary pathogen of WBD.”

How would this make it unlikely? Not sure I understand.

Can you give the reference? otherwise no one can determine what youre talking abut

 

[Reefahholic]

Mods gonna close the thread if the back-and-forth doesn't cease soon...

We’re being civil. No name calling or low blows. Just friendly discussion.

 

[MnFish1]

Gentlemen I have no words. My disappointment continues. Well of to another thread. Good luck getting answers after running off the person who had to spend hours defending himself just to make a point. It might have been better to use honey than vinegar to get the answers you so much wanted to hear.

I did in my short life manage a dental laboratory which was tasked with repeatable results for the doctors who owned it. See in a laboratory you have to have repeated results in an effort to treat patients successfully. That implies using techniques that are repeatable as often as possible. I am glad MnFish1 mentioned the doctor that discovered a link to bacteria and ulcers. He was treated like a loon by most of the profession until low and behold some listened and had repeatable success with their patients that required no surgery...what a shock! By that time he literally had hundreds of cases with patients that recovered without surgery. Still progress takes time due to the inherent stubbornness of academia. Please reread the quote from the Doctor that lead the New England Journal of Medicine it should be alarming to all of us. I can tell you other tales that support her claims but I digress.

Next consider the tale of Dr. Bruce W. Halstead who was the worlds leading authority on poisonous fish and sea snakes. He was by profession a physician who was attracted to fish in such a way it nearly killed his medical career during medical school. But certain individuals needed his expertise like the U.S. Navy and Jacque Cousteau. Next thing you know he is a academic and research rock star and he is featured on many training videos for the Navy and with Jacque Cousteau. I wish I could say his life ended well but I will let you discover that for yourselves. The point is he was not trained to any degree for fish....it was just an area of interest that lead to very vital discoveries for the Navy and others. His intellect and curiosity sent him down that path and as a result many lives may have been saved by his knowledge of the toxins.

Its important to document others contributions - I dont see it here - sorry @Lowell Lemon and you normally persuade me .....