Possible solution to end RTN forever?!?

[jda]

Just imagine the "this is the problem with the world today" or other "get off my lawn posts" if these kind of statements went unchallenged and tanks crashed, people paid and saw no benefit. The plethora of "why was this not mentioned before" posts would be insane. The studies by Jose alone which show that Philaster can be killed safer with metro are enough to cause anybody to rethink these claims without a lot more info - ONLY THE GUY SELLING THE STUFF SAYS THAT METRO DOES NOT WORK. Combine this with nearly every hobbyist experience where a single STN event is not followed up by total destruction and there is more than a basis for concern.

Why is disagreement, concern or skepticism seen as disrespectful or bashing? This used to be known as constructive to actual adults and you were just immature if you could not take it. You always can learn more from people that you disagree with than people that thing the same as you - if everybody is thinking the same thing, then nobody is thinking. There, I just had a get off my lawn moment.

 

[Reefahholic]

Ok so you do realize that contradicts what hes saying right?

Yes I do. I agree with almost everything, but this is where we differ slightly. However, I may change my mind later after learning more. We all have our opinions and that’s ok. Would like to continue to learn more and see more testing.

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks for doing the experiment. I appreciate the information you collected. How can we check to see if we have the protozoans in our tanks? What do they look like under a microscope?

According to everything read they are 'ubiquitous' in tanks and the worlds oceans.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

guy: does some research on RTN
guy: comes up with some novel conclusions and develops a medication
guy: manufactures medication and offers it for sale stating it's limitations with regards to success/fish viability
some other guy: posts about it on reef forum
guy: not in the forum conversation or sponsoring/promoting the purchase of said product on forum
ravenous forum members: Shred apart and impugn guy's research, product, and motives as financial before he is even in the forum/thread without having done any research or detailed study of RTN themselves
Edit - guy: joins forum discussion and continues to be ravaged as if he'd been hawking the product from the get go

...sounds about right

Count me out on this conversation going forward. I'll leave it to the keyboard warriors. Starting to feel a lot like that other old reef forum in this thread... Some of the OG's here may want to look in the mirror

 

[Reefahholic]

This close minded dogmatism is exactly why we have been without answers about RTN and STN for 50 years.
1. I used a microscope for all experiments. You can see bacteria with a microscope, that’s how they were first discovered. There were no funguses nor viruses nor bacteria, only protozoans and their bellies were full of coral tissue and zooxanthella. No other microorganism was present. I used a microscope and micro pipette to isolate Philaster
2. Protozoans are not worms
3. Extensive testing was performed on treated systems and there were no effects on anything in the reef system except the protozoans and if overdosed fish will die. The in tank treatment affects fishes ability to have gas exchange across their gills, that is the reason.

This is exactly my logic Dr.

If a man is holding a smoking gun with shell casings at his feet and blood on his clothes and a video captured the murder- why would I look elsewhere for the killer. I think you’ve found our answer.

Thanks for also letting us know why it could possibly kill our fish when overdosed. So better to use an airstone when treating in-tank right?

 

[MnFish1]

This is exactly my logic Dr.

If a man is holding a smoking gun with shell casings at his feet and blood on his clothes and a video captured the murder- why would I look elsewhere for the killer. I think you’ve found our answer.

Thanks for also letting us know why it could possibly kill our fish when overdosed. So better to use an airstone when treating in-tank right?

Curious - what if a man is holding a smoking gun with shell casings at his feet and blood on his clothes - and a video of a shooting. But the bullet removed from the dead body did not match the smoking gun....... Thats my logic. (said tongue in cheek)

 

[MnFish1]

guy: does some research on RTN
guy: comes up with some novel conclusions and develops a medication
guy: manufactures medication and offers it for sale stating it's limitations with regards to success/fish viability
some other guy: posts about it on reef forum
guy: not in the forum conversation or sponsoring/promoting the purchase of said product on forum
ravenous forum members: Shred apart and impugn guy's research, product, and motives as financial before he is even in the forum/thread without having done any research or detailed study of RTN themselves
Edit - guy: joins forum discussion and continues to be ravaged as if he'd been hawking the product from the get go

...sounds about right

Count me out on this conversation going forward. I'll leave it to the keyboard warriors. Starting to feel a lot like that other old reef forum in this thread... Some of the OG's here may want to look in the mirror

Except for the part where you insult 3/4 of the people posting on this thread - I actually agree with your points - it was not Dr. D that started the hyperbole - he only stepped in when someone accused someone else of working for him.

That said - your summary missed a couple other things from the thread (IMHO):

In addition to what you wrote above I would add:

Guy refuses to acknowledge there are studies that contradict his idea.
Guy doesn't respond to all questions - and sometimes can appear to be abrasive
Guy states he is a scientist, has a for sure treatment and answer to a problem but gets angry when people point out other possible solutions and other scientific reasons. IMHO and its only IMHO - this is different than me (as a layperson) saying - I have 3 tanks set up one with dip a one with dip b and one with dip c - and through I have no scientific background, I post that dib b will be perfectly safe and kill all pathogens in a tank (of course that was just a silly example) but I think there is a difference - is it science or is it a hobby experiment t

 

[jda]

guy: sells some stuff with claims that nobody else can verify with inconsistent logic and reasoning
reefers: here is some info that says otherwise
guy: you must think that the world is flat if you just don't take what I say at face value
reefers: here are some basic questions that would help us understand
guy: <crickets>
reefers: want to let people know that this does not make sense so that they can decide for themselves
other reefers: you are haters and bashers for looking out for other hobbyists

This is a hobby board. Hobbyists taking the time to express their concerns with anything should be encouraged.

 

[shred5]

guy: does some research on RTN
guy: comes up with some novel conclusions and develops a medication
guy: manufactures medication and offers it for sale stating it's limitations with regards to success/fish viability
some other guy: posts about it on reef forum
guy: not in the forum conversation or sponsoring/promoting the purchase of said product on forum
ravenous forum members: Shred apart and impugn guy's research, product, and motives as financial before he is even in the forum/thread without having done any research or detailed study of RTN themselves
Edit - guy: joins forum discussion and continues to be ravaged as if he'd been hawking the product from the get go

...sounds about right

Count me out on this conversation going forward. I'll leave it to the keyboard warriors. Starting to feel a lot like that other old reef forum in this thread... Some of the OG's here may want to look in the mirror

Except you had to post so now you are no different to what others are doing.

But I am sorry if people are debating what the claims are, is that not what the forums are for? Do you except everything on the market as fact and have no doubts about a product? I doubt it.
What if this product turns out to be real bad? What if the product is nothing but a cheap common medication you can buy on the market already?

Must not have read the whole thing because insult were hurled by the sponsor.

Did you research the RTN yourself before saying those who have doubts are wrong?

But I do think people need to chill on both sides because allot is now lost in this thread. There has been some pretty good info in it and I would hate to see it closed..

 

[Reefahholic]

Part of the issue MIGHT be - that (and I'm not trying to bash @reefaholic - the OP ) is that when the thread started it was presented by the OP like it was the second coming of Jesus (or whoever you think might be coming). People even suggested he was working for the company. This started the ball rolling (at least to my reading of the first couple pages). Dr. D wasn't involved in some of the claims until later.

Having said that - I just hope Dr. D can answer the couple of questions I've asked - as well as discuss some of the research that seems to contradict his position. In the thread mentioned above by Miguel - there was a very interesting actual PICTURE of coral with RTN/WBD being treated with nothing, various antibiotics including metronidazole Metronidazole - which killed Philaster did not Halt the spread - the antibiotics (ampicillin esp) did. ND is No Disease (control), WBD is white band disease. amp is ampicillin, gent is gentamicin metronidazole is the last

I almost felt like it was the second coming of Jesus when I watched all his videos! LOL.

All these years we’ve really had NO CLUE, but I feel like finally found the issue.

It really makes me smile to think that just maybe we can all enjoy our reefs w/o any or very little RTN. If that doesn’t get you excited then I really don’t know what will.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

Except you had to post so now you are no different to what others are doing.

But I am sorry if people are debating what the claims are, is that not what the forums are for? Do you except everything on the market as fact and have no doubts about a product? I doubt it.
What if this product turns out to be real bad? What if the product is nothing but a cheap common medication you can buy on the market already?

Must not have read the whole thing because insult were hurled by the sponsor.

Did you research the RTN yourself before saying those who have doubts are wrong?

But I do think people need to chill on both sides because allot is now lost in this thread. There has been some pretty good info in it and I would hate to see it closed..

I never said anyone was right or wrong - I was enjoying the discussion about a topic that seems to have a lot of interest and isn't fully understand. I only made that post because I had to stop reading right around when the Prime Coral guy joined the discussion answering questions and had his head torn off before he could explain himself. Any insults that were exchanged after are unfortunate and I feel a product of the tone that was set from the start of this thread by a few ppl before the Prime Coral guy joined in. That's just my opinion so carry on guys. Hoping a few ppl will look in the mirror and resume vigorous but CIVIL debate

 

[Demonic]

I have to say I am disappointed by academics eating their own.

This discussion mirrors the problems in our nation and world with political parties, races, and tribes. In all these cases civility goes a long way in the discussion. That should preclude the necessity to thump your own chest and shove your superior intelligence down the throat of the rest of the poor unwashed masses who would like to learn from an intelligent discussion.

Look it is a know fact that each cubic milliter of sea water holds about 1 million bacteria and about 10 million viruses. This begs the question of how these organisms interact and how does it affect the disease process? This does not even include the possible ciliated protozoa, and other micro fauna included in those samples. There is a lot of unknown possible interactions in the soup we call sea water.

@MnFish1 , @Big Johnny , @Demonic @ca1ore , @sde1500, @jda with the exception of MnFish1 no one else has put up their bonfides but leveled lots of hostility and I have to ask for what reason? It must go beyond just some skepticism and I am not sure why? We all have a choice in how we respond and with several of you this is part for any discussion you enter and I just have to ask why? Are you threatened by someone else's opinion or their apparent success? Are you deluded enough to think you are the smartest person in the room and cannot learn something useful from someone else? I have the least bonfides in the group I am sure! Respect and civility are lacking in our nation and world. Can you not with you superior intellects see that this is part of the problem and not the solution? Perhaps some of you are just trolls that live for the lowbrow dig and if so a real discussion will not miss you in the least since you have nothing of value to offer.

I may not be qualified to comment but some things stand out in the conversation. Other sources have verified the presence of the these ciliates in several samples world wide. The doctor has identified what he believes to be a suspect group of organisms and using the four step process outlined established his theory and presented to you for your consideration. Now it is up to you to go to the your lab and disprove his theory and work. If and until you can do that ask respectful questions and treat each other as fellow investigators. So show respect and give respect to you fellow researcher or hobbiest whatever the case may be.

Speculation and skepticism without the ability to back it up with some intelligent and respectful questions just presents itself as ignorance and arrogance. Can we now proceed with an intellectual, honest, and civil discussion? Please avoid the gotcha attempts to trip up various presenters that is just lowbrow and counter productive. Ask questions for clarification not with the intent to attack or belittle. We all mispeake or choose the wrong words or arguments when trying to short cut our communication. Give each other time to be civil and stop assuming the worst about each other and this presentation.

By choosing how you respond you can choose to be the solution and not the problem. I will drop in again since this is a vital and important topic. Good day gentlemen and ladies!

I was just a skeptic at first and was hopeful something was found that would great for the hobby. It wasn't until I watched his demeanor and attitude towards the people with questions that my attitude changed. This guy is on the biggest horse he could find and wont and is better than anyone he meets.

 

[LMDAVE]

I don't know the the history of RTN and what past discussions were on this, but I can admit when the OP claims to have zero affiliation of the product, but is pushing it hard on this forum and other forums, just seems like a sales pitch. And the Dr's part of the video seemed very sales oriented instead of a calm informative video, for it to be just a not-for-profit solution that can help everyone's RTN problem. I linked early to the a video with Prime Coral saying the same product can also have an effect that can help eliminate vermetid snails. (another reef pest with no real known solution). Just gives it a bad snake-oil type of vibe. Like I said, from me, a reefer with only 1 year experience, something just seemed like there needed to be some discussion from the other experienced people here on it. Nothing wrong with that at all.

I think it's healthy to have a discussion with listening to both sides from all who have some past history.

 

[Scott Campbell]

This is exactly my logic Dr.

If a man is holding a smoking gun with shell casings at his feet and blood on his clothes and a video captured the murder- why would I look elsewhere for the killer. I think you’ve found our answer.

Because life is complicated. Maybe someone hired the man with the smoking gun to commit the murder. A mob boss can go to prison for murder without actually pulling the trigger you know.

The question at hand - is the Philaster ciliate initiating the disease or simply finishing the job? If the Philaster ciliates are ubiquitous and ever-present it doesn't seem plausible to me that they are causing disease. Why are they not devouring corals 24/7? I am more inclined to think of them as marine maggots - rapidly consuming a dead or dying organism but not initiating the death. Corals existing as colonies of individuals may add an extra layer of complexity. So that ridding the environment of "maggots" may help some members of the colony survive after the disease begins. Which means there could be a benefit to the treatment being discussed. But I would be hesitant to try to remove an "ubiquitous" organism from my tank.

 

[Scott Campbell]

Curious - what if a man is holding a smoking gun with shell casings at his feet and blood on his clothes - and a video of a shooting. But the bullet removed from the dead body did not match the smoking gun....... Thats my logic. (said tongue in cheek)

I think my metaphor response might be better. <lol>

 

[Reefahholic]

According to everything read they are 'ubiquitous' in tanks and the worlds oceans.

This is what I believe. As I stated above...I feel like they are opportunistic feeders like Uronema. Most likely present in every tank. As with anything there could be the rare exception. I believe they’re triggered to attack only the weaker corals that are stressed for whatever reason. Too much/little light, flow, temp, alk, trace, nutrition, PO4, NO3, etc. As somebody suggested on my YouTube channel- it could be that the coral sheds some of its slime coat and the door swings wide open.

The main question I want to know is this:

Can they infect a totally strong and healthy acropora colony that isn’t not stressed. If they can...and assuming his stuff works (I’ve seen enough video that I believe it does) we need to do the in-tank treatments to keep the numbers down. While it may be impossible to eliminate them all together, I do believe we can gain significant control by dipping new arrivals and treating the tank periodically. How frequently is something we need to figure out. I think of the Philaster like ICH. It’s very difficult to keep out, but it can be managed and controlled. Who knows, we might be able to completely nuke them.

Again, I appreciate everybody that’s participating in this thread. It’s become a very interesting debate, but I wish we could keep it friendly. Reefers unite!

 

[Reefahholic]

Because life is complicated. Maybe someone hired the man with the smoking gun to commit the murder. A mob boss can go to prison for murder without actually pulling the trigger you know.

The question at hand - is the Philaster ciliate initiating the disease or simply finishing the job? If the Philaster ciliates are ubiquitous and ever-present it doesn't seem plausible to me that they are causing disease. Why are they not devouring corals 24/7? I am more inclined to think of them as marine maggots - rapidly consuming a dead or dying organism but not initiating the death. Corals existing as colonies of individuals may add an extra layer of complexity. So that ridding the environment of "maggots" may help some members of the colony survive after the disease begins. Which means there could be a benefit to the treatment being discussed. But I would be hesitant to try to remove an "ubiquitous" organism from my tank.

Remember...Uronema (once introduced) is ever present. They do not require a host. Yet they cause infection. They target the weak. They are IMO much like the Philaster parasite who likely takes advantage of our slight Swing in Alkalinity or any other issue that may happen that stresses the corals.

 

[sde1500]

I was just a skeptic at first and was hopeful something was found that would great for the hobby. It wasn't until I watched his demeanor and attitude towards the people with questions that my attitude changed. This guy is on the biggest horse he could find and wont and is better than anyone he meets.

Honestly this was how I felt after following it for a bit as well. Product may work, but man, his means of communicating it to the general public was terrible. Enough for me to lose most interest in considering using it. I'm still interested, would love to see follow up on it, better documentation, more research. But the arrogance was off-putting.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

All these years we’ve really had NO CLUE, but I feel like finally found the issue.

Huh? We’ve more than had a clue.

 

[Scott Campbell]

Remember...Uronema (once introduced) is ever present. They do not require a host. Yet they cause infection. They target the weak. They are IMO much like the Philaster parasite who likely takes advantage of our slight Swing in Alkalinity or any other issue that may happen that stresses the corals.

Is the Philaster ciliate actually parasitic? Most ciliates are not.