MnFish1
10K Club member
@brandon429 might suggest you're comments about OTS are a little too general. because my guess is there are multiple causes. Since many people have used many ways of filtration in the past...
Old tank syndrome is vanquished in reefing now
- Thread starter brandon429
- Start date
- Tagged users None
OP
OP
New tank getting algae
Hello, so I purchased a used tank and was able to keep the old filter media and about 20lbs of the old sand. Once I got home I put some more live sand in and dry rock I had from previous tank. Tank has been running for about 4 weeks now. I've been testing my water every other day. Ph- 7.8...
www.reef2reef.com
hey check out this case study. His thread is best fixed with our deep clean method, its eutrophic due to waste destratification and upwelling
The irony is that my recommend sounds totally ludicrous, as in the worst possible action.
what dimension allows for the single worst sounding option to be the single best option of all: the dimension of cycling science in 2021. The old rules are that off base... they paint the right action as wrong and reefs die because the old reefs and books had us practicing eutrophication storage in order to not kill bacteria
backflushing this reef is exactly how to save it.
We save the eutrophic reefs. A new momentum is coming.
Until a formal article writer tackles the matter, we're stuck in the old west because we need to know how surface area dynamics work to be able to act safely and not trend to storage as default mode.
Last edited:
Vette67
Reefing since 1997
I did my last Rip Clean in 2012, when my tank suffered it's last OTS crash. I was 10 years into the tank and thought I figured out how to reef with no water changes. I think that caught up to me and caused my crash. So I blame myself and my poor maintenance for that crash. Since then, I changed a few things. First of all, I do semi regular water changes now. Secondly, I reduced the grain size of my sand bed, and it's depth. I also try to make semi regular additions of bacteria to my tank (real ocean live sand, not bottled). I had previously run a 2-3" deep arragonite bed, as did everyone in the late 90's early 00's. DSB's were all the rage. I now have about a 1/2" to 1" oolitic sugar sand bed. I believe the smaller grain size makes it harder for waste to penetrate deeper into the sand bed. With this setup, I have not touched my sand bed since 2012, going on 9 years now. I recently purchased a gravel vacuum, just the siphon hose with the big bell on the end. This thread has me questioning whether or not it is a good idea to just let the sand bed go. I may start siphoning sections over the next few months. I certainly don't want to do too much at once and disturb my well aged sand bed. But there's also another part of me that wants to see if I can beat my last record of not touching the sand bed for 10 years, and I'm almost there.... But that last stretch of no sand bed cleaning didn't end well.
One caveat is that I have noticed some cracking on the plastic center braces on my tank that has been in place since 2002, which may force me to get a new tank before that 10 years is up. And if I get a new tank, the old sand will be thoroughly rinsed before being moved. There literally would be no way to move it without disturbing it. And I can't imagine at this point, that it will smell pretty when I go to scoop it out.
One caveat is that I have noticed some cracking on the plastic center braces on my tank that has been in place since 2002, which may force me to get a new tank before that 10 years is up. And if I get a new tank, the old sand will be thoroughly rinsed before being moved. There literally would be no way to move it without disturbing it. And I can't imagine at this point, that it will smell pretty when I go to scoop it out.
OP
OP
Skynrd I do not know how I missed seeing your tank till just now
That's the reef I remember from the sand rinse thread, I know a man by his antlers.
yours was the tank of all corals full size, hardly any live rock as its overtaken by sps and merely an anchor, and it made me doubt surface area for that unspoken second, is that right
that's one sharp reef.
@Skynyrd Fish
That's the reef I remember from the sand rinse thread, I know a man by his antlers.
yours was the tank of all corals full size, hardly any live rock as its overtaken by sps and merely an anchor, and it made me doubt surface area for that unspoken second, is that right
that's one sharp reef.
@Skynyrd Fish
OP
OP
OP
OP
Another case study analysis against the backdrop of OTS pre, current and post conditions
www.reef2reef.com
the reason thats a case study is because 100% of readers will agree a rip clean is pre mature and destabilizing, waiting and slow patience is better.
but I present to the court:
The reef has had macro and micro dieoff from insults due to bad seam curing. This increases decaying biomass, that’s OTS upward bell curve fast and drop in active surface area due to plugging
we specifically would not adhere to the rule ride it out, nothing good happens fast in reefing, that’s a slow tank killer mode after mass loss such as above. Surgical wound flushing is directly indicated. Were that a bare bottom setup, you could skip surgery and just use aimed power heads to unplug all rocks and your roller setup will need changing for the next four weeks, slower means same outcome as the two hour rip clean.
where‘s the dead waste matter going to be distributed by currents? Into tiny pockets...your filter crevices. That’s OTS and all the current publicly-popular rules of wait, hold course, dose something (causes more plugging by killing cyano now, compounding) causes OTS for the masses vs reverses it. The reasons rip cleans seem like such a crazy destabilizing recommend is because the hobby directly wants you to store all waste, all the time, in the name of stability and then eventual crash. It’s our groupthink death loop we inflict without wanting to.
Buying any medication or doser or digestion bacteria (prodibio or waste away or mb7) is absolutely not indicated, those reduce surface area vs increase it like a rip clean does. A rip clean removes plugging mass from interstices. A doser run plugs more interstices with dead cyano mass, unexported. A doser robs your tank of yet more oxygen
eutrophic reefs tend to run low/problem zone o2 that’s a direct gaseous measure for plugged eutrophic systems, especially at night.
oligotrophic systems are high throughput low storage low plugging, you’ll never have o2 issues in a rip cleaned system.
blanketing, drops in nitrification rates, increase in surface mat scums and plants (forming on the rocks) and his recent mass loss forms a direct case study for pre eutrophication above. The system should be rip cleaned with all new water, it will then be added to page fifty of the OTS stoppage that is the sand rinse thread.
if we examine his presentation pic from the post we can see pre eutrophication and reduction of surface area as plain as day, and thats only ten inch field of view not counting the rest of the reef, we don’t have to wait until OTS is in full mode to stop it.
here we are spotting it with a pair of binocs from a safe distance.
Cyno outbreak. Questions
Hello all, a week ago I inadvertently poisoned my system by installing a DIY sump in wich I used silicone that had mold inhibitors added and killed 8 out of 10 fish an anemone and at least 2 of 9 corals don’t look to be coming back. I am very certain the culprit was the silicone as the MSDS...
www.reef2reef.com
the reason thats a case study is because 100% of readers will agree a rip clean is pre mature and destabilizing, waiting and slow patience is better.
but I present to the court:
The reef has had macro and micro dieoff from insults due to bad seam curing. This increases decaying biomass, that’s OTS upward bell curve fast and drop in active surface area due to plugging
we specifically would not adhere to the rule ride it out, nothing good happens fast in reefing, that’s a slow tank killer mode after mass loss such as above. Surgical wound flushing is directly indicated. Were that a bare bottom setup, you could skip surgery and just use aimed power heads to unplug all rocks and your roller setup will need changing for the next four weeks, slower means same outcome as the two hour rip clean.
where‘s the dead waste matter going to be distributed by currents? Into tiny pockets...your filter crevices. That’s OTS and all the current publicly-popular rules of wait, hold course, dose something (causes more plugging by killing cyano now, compounding) causes OTS for the masses vs reverses it. The reasons rip cleans seem like such a crazy destabilizing recommend is because the hobby directly wants you to store all waste, all the time, in the name of stability and then eventual crash. It’s our groupthink death loop we inflict without wanting to.
Buying any medication or doser or digestion bacteria (prodibio or waste away or mb7) is absolutely not indicated, those reduce surface area vs increase it like a rip clean does. A rip clean removes plugging mass from interstices. A doser run plugs more interstices with dead cyano mass, unexported. A doser robs your tank of yet more oxygen
eutrophic reefs tend to run low/problem zone o2 that’s a direct gaseous measure for plugged eutrophic systems, especially at night.
oligotrophic systems are high throughput low storage low plugging, you’ll never have o2 issues in a rip cleaned system.
blanketing, drops in nitrification rates, increase in surface mat scums and plants (forming on the rocks) and his recent mass loss forms a direct case study for pre eutrophication above. The system should be rip cleaned with all new water, it will then be added to page fifty of the OTS stoppage that is the sand rinse thread.
if we examine his presentation pic from the post we can see pre eutrophication and reduction of surface area as plain as day, and thats only ten inch field of view not counting the rest of the reef, we don’t have to wait until OTS is in full mode to stop it.
here we are spotting it with a pair of binocs from a safe distance.
Last edited:
MnFish1
10K Club member
Can you concisely explain (step by step) - what your definition of 'rip clean' is. I agree with yoru comments above - and I think whenever something like a major die off happens you need to remove toxins, etc etc. And of course - with a toxin in the silicone - you have to do a rip clean (becasue you need to replace the silicone) - but in general I'm not sure it makes sense to generalize (again depending on what 'rip clean' means can you just type it in the thread here step 1, 2, 3. ThanksAnother case study analysis against the backdrop of OTS pre, current and post conditions
Cyno outbreak. Questions
Hello all, a week ago I inadvertently poisoned my system by installing a DIY sump in wich I used silicone that had mold inhibitors added and killed 8 out of 10 fish an anemone and at least 2 of 9 corals don’t look to be coming back. I am very certain the culprit was the silicone as the MSDS...
the reason thats a case study is because 100% of readers will agree a rip clean is pre mature and destabilizing, waiting and slow patience is better.
but I present to the court:
The reef has had macro and micro dieoff from insults due to bad seam curing. This increases decaying biomass, that’s OTS upward bell curve fast and drop in active surface area due to plugging
we specifically would not adhere to the rule ride it out, nothing good happens fast in reefing, that’s a slow tank killer mode after mass loss such as above. Surgical wound flushing is directly indicated. Were that a bare bottom setup, you could skip surgery and just use aimed power heads to unplug all rocks and your roller setup will need changing for the next four weeks, slower means same outcome as the two hour rip clean.
where‘s the dead waste matter going to be distributed by currents? Into tiny pockets...your filter crevices. That’s OTS and all the current publicly-popular rules of wait, hold course, dose something (causes more plugging by killing cyano now, compounding) causes OTS for the masses vs reverses it. The reasons rip cleans seem like such a crazy destabilizing recommend is because the hobby directly wants you to store all waste, all the time, in the name of stability and then eventual crash. It’s our groupthink death loop we inflict without wanting to.
Buying any medication or doser or digestion bacteria (prodibio or waste away or mb7) is absolutely not indicated, those reduce surface area vs increase it like a rip clean does. A rip clean removes plugging mass from interstices. A doser run plugs more interstices with dead cyano mass, unexported. A doser robs your tank of yet more oxygen
eutrophic reefs tend to run low/problem zone o2 that’s a direct gaseous measure for plugged eutrophic systems, especially at night.
oligotrophic systems are high throughput low storage low plugging, you’ll never have o2 issues in a rip cleaned system.
blanketing, drops in nitrification rates, increase in surface mat scums and plants (forming on the rocks) and his recent mass loss forms a direct case study for pre eutrophication above. The system should be rip cleaned with all new water, it will then be added to page fifty of the OTS stoppage that is the sand rinse thread.
if we examine his presentation pic from the post we can see pre eutrophication and reduction of surface area as plain as day, and thats only ten inch field of view not counting the rest of the reef, we don’t have to wait until OTS is in full mode to stop it.
here we are spotting it with a pair of binocs from a safe distance.
OP
OP
All tanks from the sand rinse thread / rip clean thread follow this action set below whether we are combining tanks, moving homes, changing out sandbeds, going from bed to full bare bottom, fixing cyano or diatoms or in this case above recovering from dieoff compounding or reversing eutrophication:
drain down water and catch some of it while its clean for reuse if you do not want to make all new water. We prefer all new water matching temp and salinity when possible
house fish you catch and inverts in clean water totes, not with live rock (sometimes detritus waste is stuck in rocks and can kill fish in holding, our goal is to remove this liability)
corals can go in with fish and inverts keep substrates separate
now the tank is mostly drained, remove live rocks and twist-swish roughly in new or old -saltwater- to eject all pent up waste, you’ll be amazed how much every live rock takes up in the interstices, flush out the pores.
now the tank is 1/3 muddy brown water, and old sand. Take the entire tank down and clean the glass and pumps, scum free.
either replace the sand with new, or use the old, but prepare either one exactly this way: take portions of sand and rinse clean in a bucket under tap water until the sand is snowglobe clean. Final rinse is RO water, to eject the tap. Compile this clean sand for use.
*******do Not put a handful of old sand in the new tank******
now set up the tank again and it will skip cycle and be oligotrophic
re ramp all lights back like the LEDs are new, no full power for a week. If your rocks and sand bring back no clouding, the new tank will skip cycle. Tap rising sand didn’t hurt, we don’t need sandbed bacteria they’re a bioload we deal with, they’re not core required bacteria like live rock.
be feeding your fish and corals better than ever- we created this cleanliness so you can mass feed, gain coral mass vs starve them, and re fill up all the waste again circularly.
obviously in nanos this isn’t hard, but for 200 gallon tank owners it sure is, so rethink making large tanks with sand on the bottom under fish and rocks stacked on top, design another less storage-prone way.
hundreds of OTS reversed in one thread/
www.reef2reef.com
drain down water and catch some of it while its clean for reuse if you do not want to make all new water. We prefer all new water matching temp and salinity when possible
house fish you catch and inverts in clean water totes, not with live rock (sometimes detritus waste is stuck in rocks and can kill fish in holding, our goal is to remove this liability)
corals can go in with fish and inverts keep substrates separate
now the tank is mostly drained, remove live rocks and twist-swish roughly in new or old -saltwater- to eject all pent up waste, you’ll be amazed how much every live rock takes up in the interstices, flush out the pores.
now the tank is 1/3 muddy brown water, and old sand. Take the entire tank down and clean the glass and pumps, scum free.
either replace the sand with new, or use the old, but prepare either one exactly this way: take portions of sand and rinse clean in a bucket under tap water until the sand is snowglobe clean. Final rinse is RO water, to eject the tap. Compile this clean sand for use.
*******do Not put a handful of old sand in the new tank******
now set up the tank again and it will skip cycle and be oligotrophic
re ramp all lights back like the LEDs are new, no full power for a week. If your rocks and sand bring back no clouding, the new tank will skip cycle. Tap rising sand didn’t hurt, we don’t need sandbed bacteria they’re a bioload we deal with, they’re not core required bacteria like live rock.
be feeding your fish and corals better than ever- we created this cleanliness so you can mass feed, gain coral mass vs starve them, and re fill up all the waste again circularly.
obviously in nanos this isn’t hard, but for 200 gallon tank owners it sure is, so rethink making large tanks with sand on the bottom under fish and rocks stacked on top, design another less storage-prone way.
hundreds of OTS reversed in one thread/
Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread
If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...
www.reef2reef.com
Last edited:
MnFish1
10K Club member
Thanks. I have done this numerous times (when changing tanks or moving them) - with never any problems
OP
OP
Reef Tank CPR - power outage biology, crash arrest, and recovery
Team Don‘t add bottled bacteria to the display during crash arrest as the cycle bacteria aren’t killed in still water. There are times where bottled bacteria can lower ammonia in fish holding containers especially if travel or transport is occurring, but by rinsing these displays out vs dosing...
www.reef2reef.com
we will use the remedies for old tank syndrome to intercept and turnaround power outage / temp dropped crashed reefs.
Last edited:
Paul B
10K Club member
Excellence Award
Reef Tank 365
Reef Of The Month
Article Contributor
Rock Pool Reef Keepers
Quote"
drain down water and catch some of it while its clean for reuse if you do not want to make all new water. We prefer all new water matching temp and salinity when possible
house fish you catch and inverts in clean water totes, not with live rock (sometimes detritus waste is stuck in rocks and can kill fish in holding, our goal is to remove this liability)
corals can go in with fish and inverts keep substrates separate
now the tank is mostly drained, remove live rocks and twist-swish roughly in new or old -saltwater- to eject all pent up waste, you’ll be amazed how much every live rock takes up in the interstices, flush out the pores.
now the tank is 1/3 muddy brown water, and old sand. Take the entire tank down and clean the glass and pumps, scum free.
either replace the sand with new, or use the old, but prepare either one exactly this way: take portions of sand and rinse clean in a bucket under tap water until the sand is snowglobe clean. Final rinse is RO water, to eject the tap. Compile this clean sand for use.
*******do Not put a handful of old sand in the new tank******
End Quote
OMG, does anybody actually do this just for fun?
I do remember removing everything maybe 30 years ago just to see what was growing under my Reverse Undergravel filter but I don't think I really had to do it. Maybe I did, I don't remember because the space under the UGF was filled like it was the last time I removed it to move here 3 years ago.
My Son N Law here is removing the UG filter plates for the move here. You can see it is all mud but I think it was untouched for about 20 years or so. I removed most of that mud when I re instaled everything here. I did use most of the old water but some of it I used to rinse the mud out of the dolomite gravel. I never use sand and would not use gravel without using a reverse UG filter.
drain down water and catch some of it while its clean for reuse if you do not want to make all new water. We prefer all new water matching temp and salinity when possible
house fish you catch and inverts in clean water totes, not with live rock (sometimes detritus waste is stuck in rocks and can kill fish in holding, our goal is to remove this liability)
corals can go in with fish and inverts keep substrates separate
now the tank is mostly drained, remove live rocks and twist-swish roughly in new or old -saltwater- to eject all pent up waste, you’ll be amazed how much every live rock takes up in the interstices, flush out the pores.
now the tank is 1/3 muddy brown water, and old sand. Take the entire tank down and clean the glass and pumps, scum free.
either replace the sand with new, or use the old, but prepare either one exactly this way: take portions of sand and rinse clean in a bucket under tap water until the sand is snowglobe clean. Final rinse is RO water, to eject the tap. Compile this clean sand for use.
*******do Not put a handful of old sand in the new tank******
End Quote
OMG, does anybody actually do this just for fun?
I do remember removing everything maybe 30 years ago just to see what was growing under my Reverse Undergravel filter but I don't think I really had to do it. Maybe I did, I don't remember because the space under the UGF was filled like it was the last time I removed it to move here 3 years ago.
My Son N Law here is removing the UG filter plates for the move here. You can see it is all mud but I think it was untouched for about 20 years or so. I removed most of that mud when I re instaled everything here. I did use most of the old water but some of it I used to rinse the mud out of the dolomite gravel. I never use sand and would not use gravel without using a reverse UG filter.
OP
OP
those steps above are indeed for sand-on-the-bottom setups, Berlin style
the aerated ones from RUGF work oppositely, are inherently oxygenated, and don't completely kill reefs who stray from controlled access ordering.
I have many a link handy for those who tried to customize work with a Berlin setup and its painful.
we eliminate all risk in the surgical steps above with tap, though it seems odd agreed
I can not locate any live threads on Berlin sandbed biology using actual tank work examples. They're all reference articles, safe places...a live thread where they move homes 'll stress em to manage
since the only thread running that deals in the matter says tap, we better not stray~
the aerated ones from RUGF work oppositely, are inherently oxygenated, and don't completely kill reefs who stray from controlled access ordering.
I have many a link handy for those who tried to customize work with a Berlin setup and its painful.
we eliminate all risk in the surgical steps above with tap, though it seems odd agreed
I can not locate any live threads on Berlin sandbed biology using actual tank work examples. They're all reference articles, safe places...a live thread where they move homes 'll stress em to manage
since the only thread running that deals in the matter says tap, we better not stray~
Last edited:
OP
OP
Masked Gobies Spawned
I have a pair of masked Gobies in a 3 gallon pico tank and they decided to become a breeding pair! I know Gobies in general are pretty willing to spawn in captivity, but not sure if anyone has observed this with masked Gobies?
www.reef2reef.com
Looks like some plant action, some biodiversity and some accumulations we're primed to blast out have some counter benefits, says those gobies.
Wanted to show how what we consider a challenge tank might not really be in challenge, just to our visual standards. my remarks about ots are set to avoiding the plant-dominated condition...but if that is acceptable, and it is accomplishing things a cleaned pico doesn't- who's to say being mildly eutrophic is all bad... they got gobies to breed in a tiny nano by providing lush cover and diverse feed which is expected in the high mass plant condition as more hangers on/pods/benthic creatures. we know that natural reefs take on this condition they're not sheared down to just coralline and select coral stands alone, the in-betweens have life
Last edited:
SirRoadwolf
Active Member
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2018
- Messages
- 116
- Reaction score
- 77
My question is what is the cough syrup doing on a work bench
Paul B
10K Club member
Excellence Award
Reef Tank 365
Reef Of The Month
Article Contributor
Rock Pool Reef Keepers
LOL, That "cough syrup" is "SleepEze". I am a terrible sleeper and about 3 times a week need something "along" with and in addition to the Grand Marnier and melotinin I drink every night so I can sleep.My question is what is the cough syrup doing on a work bench
I supposedly have PTSD (which I think made me better, my wife doesn't think so) but according to the Veterans Administration the main reason I can't sleep. My mind can't shut off and I keep inventing all night in my bald head.
If I see any piece of machinery, a bent tree, Supermodel, weird fish, rock, duck or almost anything that is part of life, my mind will mull it over all night and try to re-invent it or in the example of the tree, see what I could make out of it. The Supermodel elicits other memories like when I worked for Playboy or the Victoria Secret Photo Shoots. (I wanted to put on their wings but they are like all 7' tall so I couldn't reach their shoulders)
Machinery, especially if it has gears, pulleys, belts, pistons, hydraulics, cams or almost anything made of metal drives me crazy because my mind can't just let that go as numerous configurations go through my head as to what I could do with those gears. What really cool device I could build from them to help mankind solve the energy problem, bring world piece, feed the hungry or figure out what is wrong with Dr. Zeuss books.
rog2961
Active Member
I havent cleaned my overflow since the tank was setup 6 years ago. In both overflows I have tons of sponges and have a bristleworm farm at the bottom of both that catch everything uneaten that goes into the overflow. I do RIP clean every now and then and it's been working well.
Paul B
10K Club member
Excellence Award
Reef Tank 365
Reef Of The Month
Article Contributor
Rock Pool Reef Keepers
I don't understand "RIP" clean and am glad I don't have to do it. To me a reef tank should be eternal, self sustaining, ever lasting and not fraught with problems as so many tanks seem to be. If a reverse Undergravel filter is the key, which it seems to be, why doesn't everybody do that?
I have never had to RIP clean anything except my man cave and I don't need extra work on a fish tank that I just want to sit there for 50 years without causing me any unnecessary, ridiculous work just to keep it doing what it is supposed to do.
I have never had to RIP clean anything except my man cave and I don't need extra work on a fish tank that I just want to sit there for 50 years without causing me any unnecessary, ridiculous work just to keep it doing what it is supposed to do.
Similar threads
