OK am opinionated but it annoys the heck out of me.

[atoll]

Fish don't have "a will to survive". They don't have a will at all.

You know that do you. The will is embedded in their genetics in fact all animals have it including humans. A will by anyother name.

 

[FSP]

I don't have strong feelings about this topic in particular, but I appreciate it when successful hobbyists share their opinions. Especially controversial ones Whether or not I agree with them or to what extent ultimately doesn't matter, their reasoning and subsequent rebuttal/affirmation makes for a good read and me a better informed hobbyist.

The "less experienced" line reads like "but what about the children?" Quality points have been raised for both sides. "Clowns live in anemones in nature; it's natural," and "clowns have been bred in the hobby for a long time without anemones" are both true statements, and the folks who read this thread and threads like it can come to their own conclusions.

Unless atoll starts breaking into people's houses and dropping anemones in their clown tanks (you aren't doing that, right? ), what's the harm? I'd much rather read a thread that presents a question (I know he didn't ask. The question is obvious ) AND a response, because it seems to give the rest of the discussion more focus.

Oh, and I don't like clowns, but if a "Why clowns are the greatest asset to the saltwater hobby" thread starter broke into my house and forced me to keep a pair, they would likely not have an anemone

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

You know that do you. The will is embedded in their genetics in fact all animals have it including humans. A will by anyother name.

Yes, I do know that. Instinct and will are not the same. Fish and other lower vertebrates have no "will", emotions, or any of the other things you're attributing to them. They respond to basic fight/flight/freeze stressors and that's about it. It's threat or no threat, that's what they "feel".

 

[atoll]

Yes, I do know that. Instinct and will are not the same. Fish and other lower invertebrates have no "will", emotions, or any of the other things you're attributing to them. They respond to basic fight/flight/freeze stressors and that's about it. It's threat or no threat, that's what they "feel".

Quote​

"More than all of this, fish are sentient (they have feelings!)​

It's clear to us that fishes are sentient beings, meaning that they're individuals, capable of experiencing pain and feeling emotions such as fear. Did you know that fishes who are hooked by an angler will try to avoid returning to the area where it happened? This suggests that they felt pain and don't want a repeat experience...

Fishes are also likely to be capable of experiencing positive emotions too - many people who look after pet fish report seeing fishes playing in bubble streams or swimming up to the water surface to 'greet' them when they approach.

Evidence for fishes being sentient also comes from the 'mirror self-recognition test'. This test involves placing a mirror in front of the animal to see whether they recognise their reflections as themselves, or see them just as 'another animal'.

Manta rays and cleaner wrasses can pass this test - something only a handful of all animals have been found to do. Although failing the test does not rule out the possibility that the animal is sentient, the fact that some fishes can pass the test is strong evidence that they're sentient and self-aware."

 

[damsels are not mean]

If clowns needed anemones then they'd always prefer them. But they don't, and especially not captive-bred ones.

My clown has had her pick over the years. I've had a couple species of anemones and several suitable corals between tank crashes, yet she prefers the cave. She ventures out to suck on the mushrooms every few minutes and then goes back in. She scours the back wall for copepods from inside the cave and strikes when she sees one. I think she has learned that being in an anemone is not going to do much for her. She has no predators for 10 years now and has a buffet right outside her current home.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Please cite your source

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Quote​

"More than all of this, fish are sentient (they have feelings!)​

It's clear to us that fishes are sentient beings, meaning that they're individuals, capable of experiencing pain and feeling emotions such as fear. Did you know that fishes who are hooked by an angler will try to avoid returning to the area where it happened? This suggests that they felt pain and don't want a repeat experience...

Fishes are also likely to be capable of experiencing positive emotions too - many people who look after pet fish report seeing fishes playing in bubble streams or swimming up to the water surface to 'greet' them when they approach.

Evidence for fishes being sentient also comes from the 'mirror self-recognition test'. This test involves placing a mirror in front of the animal to see whether they recognise their reflections as themselves, or see them just as 'another animal'.

Manta rays and cleaner wrasses can pass this test - something only a handful of all animals have been found to do. Although failing the test does not rule out the possibility that the animal is sentient, the fact that some fishes can pass the test is strong evidence that they're sentient and self-aware."

Fish absolutely don't "recognize their reflection". In fact, placing a mirror against the glass is a method to stop an aggressive fish from targeting tank-mates since it becomes focused on the "other" fish (its reflection) and keeping an eye on it. If the fish saw the reflection as itself, it would not work.

I'm not going to argue this with you though. After many years of academic research and degrees in biology and psychology I'm confident in my previous statements.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

many people who look after pet fish report seeing fishes playing in bubble streams or swimming up to the water surface to 'greet' them when they approach.

...and this has nothing to do with the fact that they have learned we feed them...

It's clear to us

Who is "us"??

Did you know that fishes who are hooked by an angler will try to avoid returning to the area where it happened? This suggests that they felt pain and don't want a repeat experience...

Um, yes, no one has suggested that fish don't feel pain or cannot learn... but applying a human emotion to positive or negative reactions to stimuli is silly.

If you are truly worried about your fish feeling "emotions", then hopefully I've relieved your concerns.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

.

 

[fish farmer]

It's clear to us that fishes are sentient beings, meaning that they're individuals, capable of experiencing pain and feeling emotions such as fear. Did you know that fishes who are hooked by an angler will try to avoid returning to the area where it happened?

I can think of many occasions of fish I've caught and released going right back to where they were.....and come take a bait or fly minutes later to be caught again.

 

[Paul B]

Unless atoll starts breaking into people's houses and dropping anemones in their clown tanks (you aren't doing that, right? ), what's the harm? I'd much rather read a thread that presents a question (I know he didn't ask. The question is obvious ) AND a response, because it seems to give the rest of the discussion more focus.

Atoll is a friend of mine and if he posts a thread about something I am not particularly interested in, I don't go on it and I am sure he doesn't read many of my very opinionated threads.

It's like politics, many of my friends don't agree with me because they are stupid..........I mean,,,,, because they just have different opinions. It's all good.

My threads are really weird and I am sure I get a lot of people stirred up. But they either get over it or read something else,,,Perhaps "Horton Hears a Who".

No one is here to purposely start an argument so if you don't like this thread, go and read mine.

 

[Peace River]

Friendly reminder to everyone - R2R was founded on the simple premise to develop a warm, friendly, suitable place to gather and discuss this hobby for people of all ages, backgrounds, and experience levels. The “Be Nice” policy is something we take very seriously. This can be especially challenging when we perceive trolling activity or perceived personal judgments - please work to separate the problem from the people and focus on addressing the problem. We will continue to monitor and review this thread and may take additional action.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I agree with Peace River as to the purpose and mission of forums including this one.
Too many take things personal and often become insultive and disrespectful without cause. I myself have viewed disagreeable statements and just moved on. It shows respect and dignity. in an addition to avoiding conflict.
Atoll is entitled to his feelings and opinions and if he calls a Puffer a goat, I accept that.

It appears its the very same persons pulling the attitudes and insults and its past time they are addressed or removed.
Did I ever take things personal at one time- Peace River can attest to that- It was he who opened my eyes

 

[Paul B]

Atoll is entitled to his feelings and opinions and if he calls a Puffer a goat, I accept that.

I know Atoll and he would never call a puffer a goat. Cow, maybe......Duck Billed Platypus or Aardvark,
Never.

 

[atoll]

What's a puffer?

I know Atoll and he would never call a puffer a goat. Cow, maybe......Duck Billed Platypus or Aardvark,
Never.

 

[atoll]

It's a forum with people I have never met probably never will, most don't know me or my philosophy to reefkeeping. Mud doesn't stick here but I don't throw it anyway. I help many when I can on here and have always done so. My views are my own they may not be yours, it matters not if people don't agree with them, thats fine. Have a nice day people, life's too short.

 

[Paul B]

It's a forum with people I have never met probably never will, most don't know me

Most people in the US don't know where Wales UK is but think "Wales" live in the sea and eat shrimp or the occasional anchovy.

 

[vetteguy53081]

What's a puffer?

Its a fish with normal behavior. . . .Putting jokes to the side

 

[PlumbTuckered]

If someone gets rattled over a complete strangers rant, then maybe reading posts aren't conducive to a happy life... see what I did there?? Hehe

If the crazy hair brain rants of a guy like Paul doesn't rattle your cage, I think you're safe to continue reading posts. He should be the litmus test.

The difference is @Paul B doesn't attack. Paul will tell you what he thinks, but only when asked!

 

[i cant think]

Most people in the US don't know where Wales UK is but think "Wales" live in the sea and eat shrimp or the occasional anchovy.

I’ve met people over here who never knew wales existed, I feel sorry for some people who taught them in schools…