OK am opinionated but it annoys the heck out of me.

[StatelineReefer]

Hey, cats need to kill live animals and eat their raw meat since its natural for them like its natural for clownfish to host anemones!!!

It is not natural for clownfish to host anemones... it is perfectly natural for the anemone to host the clownfish though.

It is also not natural for a cat to host a clownfish.

 

[OrionN]

I am more of a dog person. Here is my youngest daughter pretend she is her brother.

 

[BirdFish5000]

Don't calm down

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

2 cats and a dog.

 

[Miami Reef]

It is also not natural for a cat to host a clownfish.

It actually is. My cat hosted a clown fish inside its belly.

 

[Latte]

I belive a clownfish is happiest in it's natural associated anemone and ascsuch is a healthier in body and mind due ainly to less stress.

There are acceptions the lack of a predator being possibly the only one

Common but not natural and yes I believe depremental to the wellbeing of the fish.

its at this point we disagree. The need forcan anemone is built into the genetics of the fish and I believe a clown with its host anemone is healthier in body and mind.



Again within the generics of the fish unless it has somehow been bred out of them through constant selective breeding. I guess that's possible over continous breeding.

agreed and is what I believe I more or less stated in my origional post.



Not immediate harm but long term psychological at least and in turn physically. Stress is a big killer in this hobby and the more wevdo to limit it the better forvthe overhaul health of the fish.

what weird behaviours as I have dived and snorkeled many times and can't recall any behaviour that I could consider weird. Swimming up to my mask warding me off was observed on a number of occasions but that would be natural given the fish would probably connsider me a threat.

I'm away atm so am sure this has already been brought up but I haven't read the whole thread, sorry if it has. But... Aren't they literally called clownfish because they've been observed to swim in erratic and bizarre ways around their anemones?

Additionally, you're making a lot of assumptions based on very little here. Clownfish have been known to live way longer lives in captivity without the presence of an anemone than they generally do in the wild. This suggests to me there isn't some psychological scarring or trauma going on.

Additionally, you don't know what the fish want or need. It's fine in that circumstance to suggest you think they might need an anemone, but someone else saying "mine seem happy and fine without one, seeing as they have no predators they need protection from in my tank" is equally, if not more valid, as this is following decades of experience keeping these fish in those conditions that seem to live healthy and very long lives.

There's a term used a lot in animal welfare that I think might apply here - anthropomorphisation. Essentially, when we attribute human cheacteristics (such as how we feel emotions, our wants and desires etc.) To animals that aren't human.

Just because you see the clownfish and think "I would be so sad without my anemone" doesn't mean that the clownfish thinks that. And more likely, the clownfish doesn't feel sad at all. Stress is of course very different to other more human emotions, and fish in our tanks certainly can exhibit signs of stress, I'm just doubtful that clowns aren't perfectly content in tanks where they are fed regularly, able to snuggle up somewhere to hide if they desire and face no threat from predators.

I do think that this style of thinking is generally beneficial in the hobby, we should try our best to provide the environments that our fish would feel the most comfortable in, I just disagree in this particular case with the points that:

- clowns swimming erratically is because they lack an anemone
- clowns are stressed in tanks without an anemone (where they are able to otherwise feel adequately safe)

 

[atoll]

Really? I thought a RBTA would keep reproducing and decide to walk around, stinging any coral on its path

 

[atoll]

Lol!!! Clownfish - their doing the same thing to tentacles of nems or coral is just instinct.

And that's a fact is it.

 

[atoll]

I guess my cats are unhappy too. They eat processed food - the same stuff every day, never have to hunt for food to survive, are indoor only and never have to fear any predators, and are spayed and neutered.
Biologically (genetically), they have zero reason to live. Survival of a species is the biological imperative (and only reason to live) of all but primates and (potentially) other higher order creatures. My cats are so depressed that they are both contentedly putting on my lap (ok, one is lap-adjacent at this point)...

To think that lower species like fish have any concept of "happiness" is absurd.

You're mixing up a will to survive with natural instinct and genetics. Also what is happiness for one isn't necessarily happiness for another.
Now my thread is about natural and what is natural behaviour for a particular spec of fish. I contest bobbing up and down in the corner of the tank far from natural for a clownfish while frolicking in the tentacles of and anemone is.

 

[atoll]

Hey, cats need to kill live animals and eat their raw meat since its natural for them like its natural for clownfish to host anemones!!!

They have also been bread in domestically over thousands of years and in many cases have lost their wild instincts. Clownfish have only been bread a few tens of years.

 

[atoll]

I'm away atm so am sure this has already been brought up but I haven't read the whole thread, sorry if it has. But... Aren't they literally called clownfish because they've been observed to swim in erratic and bizarre ways around their anemones?

Additionally, you're making a lot of assumptions based on very little here. Clownfish have been known to live way longer lives in captivity without the presence of an anemone than they generally do in the wild. This suggests to me there isn't some psychological scarring or trauma going on.

Additionally, you don't know what the fish want or need. It's fine in that circumstance to suggest you think they might need an anemone, but someone else saying "mine seem happy and fine without one, seeing as they have no predators they need protection from in my tank" is equally, if not more valid, as this is following decades of experience keeping these fish in those conditions that seem to live healthy and very long lives.

There's a term used a lot in animal welfare that I think might apply here - anthropomorphisation. Essentially, when we attribute human cheacteristics (such as how we feel emotions, our wants and desires etc.) To animals that aren't human.

Just because you see the clownfish and think "I would be so sad without my anemone" doesn't mean that the clownfish thinks that. And more likely, the clownfish doesn't feel sad at all. Stress is of course very different to other more human emotions, and fish in our tanks certainly can exhibit signs of stress, I'm just doubtful that clowns aren't perfectly content in tanks where they are fed regularly, able to snuggle up somewhere to hide if they desire and face no threat from predators.

I do think that this style of thinking is generally beneficial in the hobby, we should try our best to provide the environments that our fish would feel the most comfortable in, I just disagree in this particular case with the points that:

- clowns swimming erratically is because they lack an anemone
- clowns are stressed in tanks without an anemone (where they are able to otherwise feel adequately safe)

Ever seen a clownfish in the wild without an anemone? No, I haven't either. Why is that? A clownfish wouldn't last long without one. Their genetic makeup tells them with an anemone they should be. The behaviour clownfish exhibits in an anemones is not erratic its normal. A clownfish without an anemone will exhibit unnatural behaviour something it would never choose to do in the wild. Thats my definition of natural and unnatural. The clownfish can vote with their feet or should I say fins

 

[Miami Reef]

@atoll

Your tank is so peaceful! I love it so much, especially the diamond and Firefish goby pairs!

 

[atoll]

As a final shot from me. We can all put our own interpretation on natural and unnatural. We can consider what we believe is happiness or a form of happiness in a fish. For me it's a simple task of giving a fish what it's genetic makeup tells it as best I can. I try and do and provide that with all my animals in my care. You may disagree, that's fine. I have said my bit and it's been a good mostly civilised debate.

 

[atoll]

Ever seen a clownfish in the wild without an anemone? No, I haven't either. Why is that? A clownfish wouldn't last long without one. Their genetic makeup tells them with an anemone they should be. The behaviour clownfish exhibits in an anemones is not erratic its normal. A clownfish without an anemone will exhibit unnatural behaviour something it would never choose to do in the wild. Thats my definition of natural and unnatural. The clownfish can vote with their feet or should I say fins

Thanks, peaceful most of the time that is until my male fireball angel does the odd chacing around another fish.

 

[Miami Reef]

Thanks, peaceful most of the time that is until my male fireball angel does the odd chacing around another fish.

How many gallons is your tank?

 

[Latte]

Ever seen a clownfish in the wild without an anemone? No, I haven't either. Why is that? A clownfish wouldn't last long without one. Their genetic makeup tells them with an anemone they should be. The behaviour clownfish exhibits in an anemones is not erratic its normal. A clownfish without an anemone will exhibit unnatural behaviour something it would never choose to do in the wild. Thats my definition of natural and unnatural. The clownfish can vote with their feet or should I say fins

I also haven't seen one in the wild without an Anemone, but I've also not seen one in the wild without there being a bunch of natural predators around also. I'm saying there is a bit difference between removing the anemone in the wild, and removing the anemone in a predator-free reef tank.

Obviously a slow swimming small fish won't last long in the wild without it's protection, but just because that's true in the wild doesn't mean it is necessarily true in your fish tank. This is demonstrated by, like you said, clowns not lasting in the wild without anemones but lasting, breeding and thriving for decades in captivity without them.

Natural doesn't always equal good either.

You say the behaviour of clown fish in anemones isn't erratic, it is normal. Sure.. but when you compare it to almost any other fish it is bizarre, hence why they saw the fish and thought "wow that's a weird fish behaving weirdly, let's call it a clownfish." Similarly, when someone new to the hobby sees a clownfish swimming in a way not normal to other fish, they are told it's normal. 9/10 times when I see a post asking if a clownfish's behaviour is normal, they're exhibiting the same behaviour they would with an anemone.

 

[atoll]

I also haven't seen one in the wild without an Anemone, but I've also not seen one in the wild without there being a bunch of natural predators around also. I'm saying there is a bit difference between removing the anemone in the wild, and removing the anemone in a predator-free reef tank.

A/I say there isn't at all as the clown IMO still thinks if it goes too far away from its host anemone it will be attached and is fearful of being eaten even in a tank.

Obviously a slow swimming small fish won't last long in the wild without it's protection, but just because that's true in the wild doesn't mean it is necessarily true in your fish tank.

This is demonstrated by, like you said, clowns not lasting in the wild without anemones but lasting, breeding and thriving for decades in captivity without them.

A/As my answer to your first point above.

Natural doesn't always equal good either.

A/Maybe not always but 95% of the time, close enough for me.

You say the behaviour of clown fish in anemones isn't erratic, it is normal. Sure.. but when you compare it to almost any other fish it is bizarre,

A/We aren't comparing one species natural behaviour with a nother though are we. Take a frogfish it doesn't or hardly swim like most fish but it's movements are natural. However, the uneducated may think differently only because they have only seen fish swim one way.

hence why they saw the fish and thought "wow that's a weird fish behaving weirdly, let's call it a clownfish."

A/Humans can call it whatever they want but as above you don't compare completely different species behaviour and call it unnatural because an angelfish say doesn't swim that way.

Similarly, when someone new to the hobby sees a clownfish swimming in a way not normal to other fish, they are told it's normal. 9/10 times when I see a post asking if a clownfish's behaviour is normal, they're exhibiting the same behaviour they would with an anemone.

A/ it's normal to swim normal for a clownfish but it's not normal to hide out hardly moving away from a corner because normal that clown would be in its anemone frolicking in its tentacles it would be in the wild. I belive being in the corner like that is making the most of a less than ideal place for it to be when it would much rather be in its natural place in an anemone.

Right, it's getting rather repetitious so time for me to draw a line under it. Have a nice day all and may your reef be a very happy environment for your animals.

 

[atoll]

How many gallons is your tank?

115 UK gallons. UK gallons are larger than US gallons so about 130 US gallons

 

[PlumbTuckered]

That's fine, you could start a thread about such.
However, Iike I said I make no apologies for rattling somebody's cage. I quite expected some to be so but then I only have the welfare of the fish I keep at heart and to explain why I believe what I do. Thank you for your opinion even if its nothing to do with this thread. Have a good day.

No, I wouldn't start such a thread. People come here for help not condemnation. And when you start a thread such as this, it only serves to intimidate the less experienced.

You're welcome to be opinionated, but keep your opinions to yourself unless asked.

I don't understand what would inspire someone to "rattle a cage" for no reason other than to stir up detritus on the forum for no reason. I view this as an attack without an intended target. It is clear that you arbitrarily throw garbage against the wall to see what sticks and then you run with it.

You are a drama queen and I've already given you more attention than you deserve.

Stop being a trouble-maker.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

You're mixing up a will to survive with natural instinct and genetics. Also what is happiness for one isn't necessarily happiness for another.
Now my thread is about natural and what is natural behaviour for a particular spec of fish. I contest bobbing up and down in the corner of the tank far from natural for a clownfish while frolicking in the tentacles of and anemone is.

Fish don't have "a will to survive". They don't have a will at all.