Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

brandon429 · Mar 2, 2020

AIO Build - XiholdtrueX 29g Biocube Build Thread

So I have had a 12g jbj nano cube going on 3 years years now https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/12g-nano-cube-dx-build.343654/page-5 But my reef was over growing itself and corals were battling it out, My wife bought me a biocube 29 2 years ago lol but finally got around to setting it up. I...

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Team, our example thread writer from above, Xiholdtruex, has started a new tank cloudlessly and he took time to document the exudate/detritus that comes off his live rocks being prepped, before the move over.

any source of surface area is a detritus catch he's showing, not just the sand. his new tank is skip cycle clean, so clean its not apparent there's water in the tank lol.

brandon429 · Mar 4, 2020

My friend LardLad and I exchange ideas about nanos via message. He let me know he was planning a rip cleaning this time, so I set up a little before and after questionnaire + outcome pics, this was a sound approach to guiding a tank and getting it ready to stock fully! Thank you LL for the additional work references, your live rock is gold standard nice, you've preserved it well. We want to use your work standards here to be copied many times over, and help others regain reefing enjoyment.

- why did you decide to rip clean -

instead of allowing my tank to hold me hostage and fill me with worry, I decided to get a grip on my little nano and perform what I will call the "Death Rip Cleaning".
First, this Fluval 13.5 EVO was started on Halloween 2019. So it is now a little over 4 months old....
Between the 2nd round of diatoms, the dinos, the green algae, the red turf algae, and the murderin' Reef Crab I had had it. This hobby was now officially NO FUN. And that's when I decided to do the Death Rip Cleaning. (With 100% water change). I had had enough of being hostage to this little nano-reef and I was gonna make a few changes.

*being active right up front is an excellent way to acclimate your animals to action, water exchange, being busy, just like a fringing reef zone would be

- how did you handle materials and implement the process -

To prepare, I bought a 20-gallon plastic barrel and mixed up 15 gallons of new RO water with the Red Sea Coral Pro at 38.2gm/Liter at 78F. I set aside one gallon in a glass jug to put livestock in with a heater while I ripped. I blew off the live rocks with the wavemaker pump until no more detritus came off of them, then placed them in the 15 gallons of new saltwater; circulated with a little pump and heater. Then I went to work on the tank. I stripped out everything from the chambers and siphoned them near dry. I cleaned all the glass as usual. Then I removed all the water and discarded it. I scooped all the sand out into a 5 gal bucket. Rinsed the tank down with saltwater and siphoned it out getting every last grain of sand into the bucket. I even used a turkey baster to get the last of the water out. The stench was great. It smelled like a dead fish rotting on the beach.
I have a hose that I hooked to hot water and went to my driveway and started ripping the sand. The water was scalding hot and I aggressively cleaned the sand over and over, dumping out the filth. It was so disgusting. I couldn't believe that this much filth and rotten garbage was coming out of my sand. Oh, the stink!!! And to think, I thought I was an aggressive 40% per week cleaning guy. It didn't matter. I repeated the process with wide-open scalding water at least 25 times. Once the water coming off the sand was totally clear, I switched over to cold water and did a few more rips. Then I tilted it up a little and let it drain out for a while. After tuning up the tank a little, I put all the sand back in. Filled with water (no cloud). Then fired it up and replaced the livestock.

-what did you least like about the process of rip cleaning the sand with full water change -

The only regret I have is that I killed all the coralline algae that were on the glass. The live rocks were fine because they stayed submerged in new saltwater. I guess the glass spent too long exposed to air. But it was worth it. My sand was better than new. I love having an aragonite substrate and would never consider a bare bottom. I just love the look. Now my tank smells fresh; like nothing. I feel great about this success and I feel great about murdering diatoms, dinos, and fish poo. I also think re-homing a bothersome reef crab hitchhiker was a necessary evolution. In the future. I will probably do a Death Rip Cleaning about once per year while maintaining aggressive siphoning once per week in the meantime. I think the Death Rip Cleaning at this time, was important because it cleared out so much garbage from the ugly phase and left me with a super clean well cycled tank that is ready to be loaded with some serious coral.

*thank you so much for your work and contribution. i cannot tell one iota that reef had diatoms or disagreeable growths, it looks laser clean and back to ideal balance. Nice way to force the condition vs coax and wait and hope for it.

and now for after pics! all these were sent to me promptly the day after a mega deep rip clean sand hot water tap rinse skip cycle (only the sand got tap water, rocks were held in saltwater)

Hyde2406 · Mar 28, 2020

What do you guys think, should I do a sand rinse? Pictures from front glass and FTS. Phosphates will drop to 0.07 after phosphate rx them jump back up in a week to. 7.
Right now
Salinity 1.025
Nitrates 5
Calcium 510
Alkalinity 8.7
Phos 0.37

brandon429 · Mar 28, 2020

I don’t mind leaving it as is, thats running sharp. Run it if you get problems

its nice how your ratio of sandbed to volume is workable, the animals are keeping top layer clean, in current eval Id say you are on cruise control and hold course. Mighty easy to clean it all back if needed

or if you were transferring tanks or moving homes

the nutrients featured in your bed compared to the top system are in balance, I’m not seeing a heavy fish bioload at all causing imbalance. extremely nice reef there, full coralline coverage low catch points for waste, easy access rock, that’s really an ideal pattern for anyone to follow for making an accessible tank

people think I hate all waste, no that above is balanced compared to topshots

those filter feeders like sitting right above those zones, if you rip clean it they’ll need strong frozen feed support / pods etc, it’ll be a busy time afterwards inputting feed nutrients back in the spaces cleared out by a deep cleaning.

JCTReefer · Mar 30, 2020

@brandon429 Read through whole thread. Dealing with what I think to be Amphidinium. Waiting on microscope to identify. Was thinking of pulling the whole sand bed and rinsing. What temps can bacteria withstand? Sand bed approximately 1 to 2 inches deep. Was thinking boiling hot to kill off everything. Not worried about the bac in the sand really. Or any of its critters. Lol. This is a 54 gallon tank. I’ve had nitrates and phosphates up for a while now. Previously had bottomed out. Respectively 5-10ppm No3 and 1.16ppm po4.. Haven’t started dosing silicates yet. Three day blackout helped, but dinos still linger. And this possible strain can go weeks in black out situations. Thought a sand rinse might help. ACTUALLY just moved the tank from living room to bed room a few weeks back. New floors going in. Then upgrade to 210. Before and after. Seems dinos are a bit better, but still there. Hard to tell, but second pic is actually cleaner than first.

brandon429 · Mar 30, 2020

JCT I can’t thank you enough for contributing. your reef there has very strong appeal to us here for several reasons, first of all is the resolve you brought

I can’t tell there’s anything wrong with that tank! looked like mild diatoms but I know you can id the dinos using exacting means / the tank is still in such balance and health we think it looks amazing even pre work.

You’ve done things to keep initial mass counts low on the dinos, it seems this tank isn’t blanketed over all surfaces like typical dinos? I’m so curious to know what physical jobs you’ve done to present such a clean tank... or has the growth self selected only as a light substrate manifest? This character gives a little insight to the rebound abilities of that particular set of dinos...if you’ve been fighting back mats daily to arrive that clean, or if the invader really doesn’t blanket corals but selects for the sand tells us a little bit about grow back veracity for planning.

most aquarists reef with magnitudes of surface area beyond what they need, but you do not. You catch and hold less detritus in that system by opening up spaces, for current, vs high surface area live rock. Rather striking reef design I’m eye glued to it.

***nobody has ever tested reef tank sand by itself pre and post rinse to know any data on max tolerances for bacteria... that data still needs filling in. We are all guessing at tolerances.
we try and rinse the sand so harshly while taken down so that all this disassembly work can be staved off as long as possible-any number of mean things can be done to kill target cells in rinsed sand and incidentally it’s a great idea based on where things manifest above: a sand rinse seems targeted to the only place the dinos exist above in the pic.

-you have the updated, throughput style aquascape that minimizes live rock and as a result your system is laser clear and corals we must preserve take up the visual area, not rock. This is opposite of most reefs, more sensitive. Big detail there
We don’t have oodles of surface area twenty football fields like normal. For the first time in this -entire thread- I think a nine dollar bottle of bio spira cycling bacteria should be input (the right dose amount) after we rip clean. I believe the surface area in the pic above from the live rock and coral stands will house the fish bioloading, plus all that dilution, but after we decimate that sandbed I would like to speed reactivate it instead of just depend on the rocks. adding the bottle bac simply pads our clean sand right back instantly. I can’t take chances with that much coral though I fully bet it would work without the bottle bac.

Dr Tim or bio spira etc, you win this one, we are using bottle bac well after a cycle let the record reflect I have yielded willingly to re purchasing bottle bac lol

—your system already runs low on stored organics, by design, so ripping a bed clean of what is there + targets isn’t really that insulting overall if you’ll disassembly clean it carefully / no detritus touches corals or fish. Most tanks we rip are crud level organics, ripped back to clean, we acclimate for that to avoid bleaching.

but you showed up already clean just with some targets, sharp. We still need to light ramp your new system, the leds have to be cut big time like new acclimation for a week or so after rip, and each coral spot fed targeted so they have all nutrients inside, be ramping back up to the right light amounts over a short time along with feeding and I’m 100% confident your reef will come out strong. The dinos won’t exist in the re input sand, and the rocks and corals are flushed lightly with saltwater in other containers before putting back in tank, you’ll have the fewest Dino cells you could have after a rip clean. Find a bag of pods like true crawling refugium gammarids, decent sized pods from places online, and input those into the clean tank ****if you think that is fish disease safe/ not breaking your disease protocol

I hear pods eat dinos and that’s why Paul has no trouble with his old reef. If pods aren’t indicated here, then after a rip clean dosing the silicates or any other approach is now working against the fewest cells possible vs full on levels

Sorry so long but that’s how much I thought about your pic before posting, thats a lot of biology on the line and we want the surgery featured here

JCTReefer · Mar 31, 2020

brandon429 said:
JCT I can’t thank you enough for contributing. your reef there has very strong appeal to us here for several reasons, first of all is the resolve you brought

I can’t tell there’s anything wrong with that tank! looked like mild diatoms but I know you can id the dinos using exacting means / the tank is still in such balance and health we think it looks amazing even pre work.

You’ve done things to keep initial mass counts low on the dinos, it seems this tank isn’t blanketed over all surfaces like typical dinos? I’m so curious to know what physical jobs you’ve done to present such a clean tank... or has the growth self selected only as a light substrate manifest? This character gives a little insight to the rebound abilities of that particular set of dinos...if you’ve been fighting back mats daily to arrive that clean, or if the invader really doesn’t blanket corals but selects for the sand tells us a little bit about grow back veracity for planning.

most aquarists reef with magnitudes of surface area beyond what they need, but you do not. You catch and hold less detritus in that system by opening up spaces, for current, vs high surface area live rock. Rather striking reef design I’m eye glued to it.

***nobody has ever tested reef tank sand by itself pre and post rinse to know any data on max tolerances for bacteria... that data still needs filling in. We are all guessing at tolerances.
we try and rinse the sand so harshly while taken down so that all this disassembly work can be staved off as long as possible-any number of mean things can be done to kill target cells in rinsed sand and incidentally it’s a great idea based on where things manifest above: a sand rinse seems targeted to the only place the dinos exist above in the pic.

-you have the updated, throughput style aquascape that minimizes live rock and as a result your system is laser clear and corals we must preserve take up the visual area, not rock. This is opposite of most reefs, more sensitive. Big detail there
We don’t have oodles of surface area twenty football fields like normal. For the first time in this -entire thread- I think a nine dollar bottle of bio spira cycling bacteria should be input (the right dose amount) after we rip clean. I believe the surface area in the pic above from the live rock and coral stands will house the fish bioloading, plus all that dilution, but after we decimate that sandbed I would like to speed reactivate it instead of just depend on the rocks. adding the bottle bac simply pads our clean sand right back instantly. I can’t take chances with that much coral though I fully bet it would work without the bottle bac.

Dr Tim or bio spira etc, you win this one, we are using bottle bac well after a cycle let the record reflect I have yielded willingly to re purchasing bottle bac lol

—your system already runs low on stored organics, by design, so ripping a bed clean of what is there + targets isn’t really that insulting overall if you’ll disassembly clean it carefully / no detritus touches corals or fish. Most tanks we rip are crud level organics, ripped back to clean, we acclimate for that to avoid bleaching.

but you showed up already clean just with some targets, sharp. We still need to light ramp your new system, the leds have to be cut big time like new acclimation for a week or so after rip, and each coral spot fed targeted so they have all nutrients inside, be ramping back up to the right light amounts over a short time along with feeding and I’m 100% confident your reef will come out strong. The dinos won’t exist in the re input sand, and the rocks and corals are flushed lightly with saltwater in other containers before putting back in tank, you’ll have the fewest Dino cells you could have after a rip clean. Find a bag of pods like true crawling refugium gammarids, decent sized pods from places online, and input those into the clean tank ****if you think that is fish disease safe/ not breaking your disease protocol

I hear pods eat dinos and that’s why Paul has no trouble with his old reef. If pods aren’t indicated here, then after a rip clean dosing the silicates or any other approach is now working against the fewest cells possible vs full on levels

Sorry so long but that’s how much I thought about your pic before posting, thats a lot of biology on the line and we want the surgery featured here

Holy cow! Thanks for the response! Wow! I need to digest this. Then rethink my protocol. Re read. Went to junk mail and found the reply. Weird. Here on reef2reef some goes to junk, some goes to inbox. Crazy. Btw, I’ve been reading your post for years, just never reached out. You mentioned Lubbock, Texas in one of your post. That’s ironic, I’ve lived here all my life. Don’t hear much mentioning about Lubbock these days. Thanks for reaching out!!!

brandon429 · Mar 31, 2020

Hey small world thats neat to meet fellow Lubbock reefer. I’m sitting here on the lockdowner remote reefing

wish I was packing up to ruidoso but they don’t want our Texas vectoring / unwelcome for six to eight weeks

BAUCE · Mar 31, 2020

nice discussion here guys

JCTReefer · Mar 31, 2020

brandon429 said:
JCT I can’t thank you enough for contributing. your reef there has very strong appeal to us here for several reasons, first of all is the resolve you brought

I can’t tell there’s anything wrong with that tank! looked like mild diatoms but I know you can id the dinos using exacting means / the tank is still in such balance and health we think it looks amazing even pre work.

You’ve done things to keep initial mass counts low on the dinos, it seems this tank isn’t blanketed over all surfaces like typical dinos? I’m so curious to know what physical jobs you’ve done to present such a clean tank... or has the growth self selected only as a light substrate manifest? This character gives a little insight to the rebound abilities of that particular set of dinos...if you’ve been fighting back mats daily to arrive that clean, or if the invader really doesn’t blanket corals but selects for the sand tells us a little bit about grow back veracity for planning.

most aquarists reef with magnitudes of surface area beyond what they need, but you do not. You catch and hold less detritus in that system by opening up spaces, for current, vs high surface area live rock. Rather striking reef design I’m eye glued to it.

***nobody has ever tested reef tank sand by itself pre and post rinse to know any data on max tolerances for bacteria... that data still needs filling in. We are all guessing at tolerances.
we try and rinse the sand so harshly while taken down so that all this disassembly work can be staved off as long as possible-any number of mean things can be done to kill target cells in rinsed sand and incidentally it’s a great idea based on where things manifest above: a sand rinse seems targeted to the only place the dinos exist above in the pic.

-you have the updated, throughput style aquascape that minimizes live rock and as a result your system is laser clear and corals we must preserve take up the visual area, not rock. This is opposite of most reefs, more sensitive. Big detail there
We don’t have oodles of surface area twenty football fields like normal. For the first time in this -entire thread- I think a nine dollar bottle of bio spira cycling bacteria should be input (the right dose amount) after we rip clean. I believe the surface area in the pic above from the live rock and coral stands will house the fish bioloading, plus all that dilution, but after we decimate that sandbed I would like to speed reactivate it instead of just depend on the rocks. adding the bottle bac simply pads our clean sand right back instantly. I can’t take chances with that much coral though I fully bet it would work without the bottle bac.

Dr Tim or bio spira etc, you win this one, we are using bottle bac well after a cycle let the record reflect I have yielded willingly to re purchasing bottle bac lol

—your system already runs low on stored organics, by design, so ripping a bed clean of what is there + targets isn’t really that insulting overall if you’ll disassembly clean it carefully / no detritus touches corals or fish. Most tanks we rip are crud level organics, ripped back to clean, we acclimate for that to avoid bleaching.

but you showed up already clean just with some targets, sharp. We still need to light ramp your new system, the leds have to be cut big time like new acclimation for a week or so after rip, and each coral spot fed targeted so they have all nutrients inside, be ramping back up to the right light amounts over a short time along with feeding and I’m 100% confident your reef will come out strong. The dinos won’t exist in the re input sand, and the rocks and corals are flushed lightly with saltwater in other containers before putting back in tank, you’ll have the fewest Dino cells you could have after a rip clean. Find a bag of pods like true crawling refugium gammarids, decent sized pods from places online, and input those into the clean tank ****if you think that is fish disease safe/ not breaking your disease protocol

I hear pods eat dinos and that’s why Paul has no trouble with his old reef. If pods aren’t indicated here, then after a rip clean dosing the silicates or any other approach is now working against the fewest cells possible vs full on levels

Sorry so long but that’s how much I thought about your pic before posting, thats a lot of biology on the line and we want the surgery featured here

I purposely laid out the aquascape to be minimum with good flow. I wanted plenty of negative space. I wanted to be able to vacuum every bit, without moving stuff around. I wanted to be able to stir the whole bed without moving stuff around also. By nature I hate clutter. Corals are color coordinated and grouped by compatibility also. 5/3rds and Iwagumi was applied the best I could. I’ll nuke the sand bed. Already have a bottle of biospira on hand. And a full bottle of microbacter7.. My upgrade will be minimalistic also. Very open aquascape. After the sand rinse, I’ll update. Also ordering a big a** UV for the new build. Insurance, I say. If the the sand bed rinse doesn’t work, coupled with elevated nutrients, I’ll pull rock and scrub clean. Peroxide and all, and see what happens. Cheers! The are you tired of dealing with dinos was a long read. Can’t wait for the scope! Maybe I can figure out what the h*ll is in my tank!!!!

jrlg · Mar 31, 2020

Add one for the sand rinse-ers! I started my 200g with dry live rock and dry sand I rinsed for hours (5 x 40lb bags) and have enjoyed the fruit of my labor. No sand storms if I have to dig in the bed and even use a gravel vac if the sand gets a little out of control. First tank I could not say that and dreaded the old power head in the sand mishap. But not this tank the power heads are turned up so about every 2 weeks I have to rake some areas back down to make it not show glass on the bottom.

JCTReefer · Mar 31, 2020

Speaking of Lubbock. It sucks we don’t have quality LFS store anymore. Mr. aquarium/aquarilease was my go to back in the day. Yes, you heard that right aquarilease. Lol. I’m 41 and have been doing this since I was 19 years old. Grew up in books and wetwebmedia/Bob Fenner and Anthony Calfo. Been from small tanks to big tanks, then back to small. As life/babies would permit. This upgrade, I told my wife she doesn’t have a choice. It’s happening! Thanks @brandon429 for all of your contributions. They are a little hard to decipher at times, but usually I can “get it”.,, I’ve never met anyone that words things quite like you do. Very unique! Ha!!

JCTReefer · Mar 31, 2020

For the record, I’ve always used Carib sea special grade and rinsed the heck out of it! Little by little, until all sediment/silt wasn’t present. When I could churn it with my hand and no cloudiness came about, I knew it was good. Always thought this was the norm.

brandon429 · Mar 31, 2020

no we would have been ridiculed in 2003 if posting that, you killed the bac lol

well I’m so happy to see the level of dedication and planning in your tank it’s a lot of life on the line and very delicate art, am confident in the plan fully. all the corals in my current nano reef came from aquarilease / Kyle except for one: my super old blasto. from hi tech / Kevin from 2003 not a joke before he went out of biz I spent many years there

Jrig
when I hear of big tanks like that I think of that stick-stirring thread where everyone started with clean sand and just disturbed it really well as prevention, some had been doing this years and had nice clean sand and no follow up deep cleans, nice only to have to do one if possible for large tanks

jrlg · Mar 31, 2020

brandon429 said:
Jrig
when I hear of big tanks like that I think of that stick-stirring thread where everyone started with clean sand and just disturbed it really well as prevention, some had been doing this years and had nice clean sand and no follow up deep cleans, nice only to have to do one if possible for large tanks

the current sand stirring is the lack of a cleaning crew in the tank, 3 hermits and 8 snails and 4 nassarius snails. Plus its a cleaning method I couldn't even attempt with the first tank. Before anyone thinks that to small there are only 6 small fish in it, after the year mark I will look into adding more sand shifters and algae eaters (and more fish). But slow and steady wins the race

JCTReefer · Mar 31, 2020

You know, I run into Kyle and Jennifer every now and then. Wonder if he’s doing the eye glass/frames things still. It’s been a while. Always liked Kyle

Currently washing my sand bed. Next tank will have a very shallow bed. Just enough for my Melanurus Wrasse to burrow. I’m thinking @evolved said an inch would sufficient.

GrumpyDaddy68 · Apr 8, 2020

@brandon429

Hi,

I have read most of the trail and I think you are doing an excellent job with this option.

I have had a 25 gal tank running for about 8 months with really low bio-load (2 clowns, 1 angelfish); about a month ago I added some CuC (2 emeralds crabs, 1 hemicrab and 3 snails... not sure the type). One of the snails died and I have like a mini-cycle... I had some diatoms that I tried to clean by sand stirring... however, I believe it was a mistake because I created a bacteria bloom and my water was 'cloudy brown'.
I tried for 3-4 weekends doing ~50% water changes with no luck... the water was never completed clear and after a week it was bad again.
I follow your recommendations and I did a 'deep clean':
- Moved my rocks (with only a few anemones - no coral) to a temporary tank (I also did a little bit brushing with some hair algae that was showing).
- Removed and rinsed/washed all the sand from the tank.
- Completely clean all the tank with RODI water.
- Put everything back together.

It took a couple of days but now I have crystal clean water... unfortunately, I have no before pictures but here is one after.

I have now a few questions for you:
- How often and how much should I sand stirring every time that I do water changes?
- I still have a little bit hair algae (minimum); what type of CuC would you suggest (all snails died). I think the two emerald crabs are not enough.
- I am afraid to brush the hair algae in the display tank before water changes.

- In general, what recommendations do you have to avoid the same issues in the future?

Thanks in advance,

brandon429 · Apr 8, 2020

check out that low-swimming fish in that shot; universal proof of no free ammonia here and no mini cycle as he'd be burned at the gills and hovering at the top or darting, unable to excrete waste and respire through the same organs (gills)

laser clear water, thats such a great job!! I dont think anyone has the perfect prevention measures in place; how to prevent the buildup again. Lots of people go with bare bottom so that detritus can't stick, but is kept in suspension for filter removal or piled in a corner for easy remove. I am so happy you posted that work for us to copy on future jobs!

Our friends in that large tank stirring thread do it weekly, and its keeping their huge sandbeds all cleaned up. here it is for a good refresher, Blusops thread on clean sand via stick stirring:

" MY WHITE SAND METHOD "

thanks again i know what type im getting next lol Im usually on RC and havent been around R2R much but i think im going to start looking around the site more:) Thats right before i forget to ask ive found the petco type of gardener on #bay (dont know if i can use the name on here yet?) anyone...

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even though what we do is brutish and uses up a bunch of water, its simply the most life-extending thing we can do currently to reset the lifespan counter of our reefs. By jetting out all the surface area reducing mulm, you open up all channels back for business and function and non-acid production etc, it literally stabilizes a reef to be this thorough in execution. it increases nitrification by excluding competing heterotrophs and their housing and by restoring water contact to surface area, formerly all gunked up. That reef above looks like a gem.

GrumpyDaddy68 · Apr 9, 2020

@brandon429

Thanks for reply and for the link; I am planning to start reading that thread.

brandon429 · Apr 9, 2020

BMattingly tank swap and skip cycle, clear detritus from rocks before setting up new tank

Reef tank swap

Hey guys wasn’t sure where to add this question. I have a 150g cube that I’m moving into a 65g jbj aio. I currently have 40 lbs of new live sand and 30 gallons of salt water in the jbj. Can I safely add the rest of the water from the 150g, live rock and live stock into the jbj? Or will this...

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