Bret Brinkmann
Well-Known Member
So I've read this whole thread now, as I said I would. There are a few things I think need to pointed out. I'm hoping this will spark some more in depth discussions. Overall I think you guys are doing good things here. Teaching reefers how to handle sand correctly will save countless livestock lives of all kinds.
1) The "live" in live sand refers to bacteria and NOT other lifeforms.
I still see people getting this wrong. Let's all get on the same page. Bacteria require 400X to 1000X magnification to see in a microscope. You can't see it any other way. They live on the surface and in the pores and the sand grains. Other lifeforms may live on top of the sand bed or burrow in it but they are NOT what makes the sand live. Only bacteria.
2) There are potentially several components to a cloud from sand.
The normal dustiness that is present when new, detritus that has built up over time, and other potential hazardous compounds like hydrogen sulfide which also build up over time. I don't think they are all harmful.
I'm not sure what is in the initial dust, but if anyone is interested I can get some ICP and DOC testing done on my 4 year old 4" DSB and even have it compared to new freash live sand dust. It would be nice to figure out exactly what it is.
I haven't ever noticed detritus to be harmful once a healthy bacteria population has taken hold. Any nitrites and ammonia is taken up immediately by bacteria. This is supported by the recent articles by Eli Meyer in the articles section entitled "Establishing a Healthy Microbiome in a New Aquarium Using Live Rock."
Hydrogen sulfide I think we can all agree is toxic though. I have been looking for ways to export S and found macroalgae, at least some, use S. I'm still looking into this deeper. However the buildup of such a compound isn't typical for a healthy sand bed and to me suggest a long term imbalance of importing various nutrients.
3) Sand beds are not an excuse to over stock and over fed your tank.
If you're using the sand as a diaper you're missing the point of sand, especially DSBs. Aside from the needs of certain livestock, sand is meant to supply additional surface area for nitrifying bacteria, not hold an infinite amount of poop. While bare bottom tanks have proven that sand isn't needed at all to establish the bacteria biome there is still a lack of data on the long term limits of rock vs sand.
Additionally DSBs provide for the anaerobic portion of the nitrification cycle. Something shallow sand beds do not. This layer is where the NO3 gets turned into diatomic N2, providing a means of N mass export. I have not seem any data comparing the abilities of LR to sand for this, especially in an aquarium environment, but I'd be very interested in it.
4) Sand clouds are the secondary reason livestock dies. Improper handling/prevention techniques are the primary reasons.
I agree and have witness livestock loss due to clouds. Afterwards we all say, "yeah I guess that was a dumb to not think the cloud was bad." Sand beds didn't kill our livestock, our ignorance did. You wouldn't under go a 12 hour transport of a fish in the middle of a Florida summer without some means of cooling. You wouldn't walk through a smoke cloud without covering your nose and mouth. So why would you subject your livestock to clouded water?
I did recently move my 29G tank and 10G fuge, both of which have DSBs. There were zero losses because I never disturbed the sand until the livestock was all in containers of clear tank water. I never cleaned the sand and still haven't.
5) CUC are too often miss used and held to extremely unreasonable expectations.
You wouldn't blindly add an unknown fish to your tank and then be shocked if things didn't work out. Why do we do this with CUC? Partly due to the disposable mentality most people have towards them. Treat them right and know their needs or please don't waste your time, money, and most importantly their lives. You don't add a lionfish for algae control. So why add an astrea snail to keep you sand clean. They won't do it. What you want are ceriths or certain conchs.
Sand can be maintained for over a decade with a combination of proper feeding habits and appropriate livestock. It's been done before. I actually want MORE cyanobacteria and algae growth in my sand because the snails that I am excited about keeping are running out of food. They do an amazing job of keeping invaders out because I bought the RIGHT animals for the job after doing my research.
6) Sand bed cleaning is NOT going to cure dinos.... Ever.
There is dino sticky in the algae forum. Read the 1st post. That sticky has more pages than this thread. If you follow the guidelines it will work. It did for me over a year ago and I had the worst case I'd ever seen or heard of.
The reason sand cleaning struggles to cute dinos is because removing them from the sand doesn't address the cause of their blooming in the first place, bottoming out nitrates and phosphates. For sand bed invading dinos, cleaning the sand is a good way to reduce their numbers but you NEED to dose inorganic nitrates and phosphates or they WILL come back.
I am willing to accept that there is an exception or two but the overwhelming amount of data shows dosing is the best approach by a long shot. So add inorganic sources of nitrate and phosphate to water after cleaning the sand if you do. They were in my sand too but I never cleaned it, just dosed and siphoned out the larger masses.
Dosing heavy amounts of bacteria like MicroBactor 7 have proven to work on sand dwelling dinos in conjunction with inorganic nitrate and phosphate dosing. These types of dinos are the most difficult to get rid of.
1) The "live" in live sand refers to bacteria and NOT other lifeforms.
I still see people getting this wrong. Let's all get on the same page. Bacteria require 400X to 1000X magnification to see in a microscope. You can't see it any other way. They live on the surface and in the pores and the sand grains. Other lifeforms may live on top of the sand bed or burrow in it but they are NOT what makes the sand live. Only bacteria.
2) There are potentially several components to a cloud from sand.
The normal dustiness that is present when new, detritus that has built up over time, and other potential hazardous compounds like hydrogen sulfide which also build up over time. I don't think they are all harmful.
I'm not sure what is in the initial dust, but if anyone is interested I can get some ICP and DOC testing done on my 4 year old 4" DSB and even have it compared to new freash live sand dust. It would be nice to figure out exactly what it is.
I haven't ever noticed detritus to be harmful once a healthy bacteria population has taken hold. Any nitrites and ammonia is taken up immediately by bacteria. This is supported by the recent articles by Eli Meyer in the articles section entitled "Establishing a Healthy Microbiome in a New Aquarium Using Live Rock."
Hydrogen sulfide I think we can all agree is toxic though. I have been looking for ways to export S and found macroalgae, at least some, use S. I'm still looking into this deeper. However the buildup of such a compound isn't typical for a healthy sand bed and to me suggest a long term imbalance of importing various nutrients.
3) Sand beds are not an excuse to over stock and over fed your tank.
If you're using the sand as a diaper you're missing the point of sand, especially DSBs. Aside from the needs of certain livestock, sand is meant to supply additional surface area for nitrifying bacteria, not hold an infinite amount of poop. While bare bottom tanks have proven that sand isn't needed at all to establish the bacteria biome there is still a lack of data on the long term limits of rock vs sand.
Additionally DSBs provide for the anaerobic portion of the nitrification cycle. Something shallow sand beds do not. This layer is where the NO3 gets turned into diatomic N2, providing a means of N mass export. I have not seem any data comparing the abilities of LR to sand for this, especially in an aquarium environment, but I'd be very interested in it.
4) Sand clouds are the secondary reason livestock dies. Improper handling/prevention techniques are the primary reasons.
I agree and have witness livestock loss due to clouds. Afterwards we all say, "yeah I guess that was a dumb to not think the cloud was bad." Sand beds didn't kill our livestock, our ignorance did. You wouldn't under go a 12 hour transport of a fish in the middle of a Florida summer without some means of cooling. You wouldn't walk through a smoke cloud without covering your nose and mouth. So why would you subject your livestock to clouded water?
I did recently move my 29G tank and 10G fuge, both of which have DSBs. There were zero losses because I never disturbed the sand until the livestock was all in containers of clear tank water. I never cleaned the sand and still haven't.
5) CUC are too often miss used and held to extremely unreasonable expectations.
You wouldn't blindly add an unknown fish to your tank and then be shocked if things didn't work out. Why do we do this with CUC? Partly due to the disposable mentality most people have towards them. Treat them right and know their needs or please don't waste your time, money, and most importantly their lives. You don't add a lionfish for algae control. So why add an astrea snail to keep you sand clean. They won't do it. What you want are ceriths or certain conchs.
Sand can be maintained for over a decade with a combination of proper feeding habits and appropriate livestock. It's been done before. I actually want MORE cyanobacteria and algae growth in my sand because the snails that I am excited about keeping are running out of food. They do an amazing job of keeping invaders out because I bought the RIGHT animals for the job after doing my research.
6) Sand bed cleaning is NOT going to cure dinos.... Ever.
There is dino sticky in the algae forum. Read the 1st post. That sticky has more pages than this thread. If you follow the guidelines it will work. It did for me over a year ago and I had the worst case I'd ever seen or heard of.
The reason sand cleaning struggles to cute dinos is because removing them from the sand doesn't address the cause of their blooming in the first place, bottoming out nitrates and phosphates. For sand bed invading dinos, cleaning the sand is a good way to reduce their numbers but you NEED to dose inorganic nitrates and phosphates or they WILL come back.
I am willing to accept that there is an exception or two but the overwhelming amount of data shows dosing is the best approach by a long shot. So add inorganic sources of nitrate and phosphate to water after cleaning the sand if you do. They were in my sand too but I never cleaned it, just dosed and siphoned out the larger masses.
Dosing heavy amounts of bacteria like MicroBactor 7 have proven to work on sand dwelling dinos in conjunction with inorganic nitrate and phosphate dosing. These types of dinos are the most difficult to get rid of.
