Keeping Expert Fish?

[Reef By Steele]

So you are perusing your favorite saltwater fish source whether online or a great LFS, and you see it. That perfect fish, the one you have always wanted, a true centerpiece! But wait, it is marked or you have read, heard etc. that this fish is an expert only fish. What does this mean, why is it for sale, I want it, I want it!!!



So there are a number of reasons for marking fish as expert only and we will explore and discuss them. For some online retailers (my favorite one included) mark some species as expert only as this means they do not honor any warranty beyond “Arrive Alive”, for an example, this applies to eels from my favorite source, and has little to do with ability to keep, but rather their ability to carpet surf. Other species though are given this destination as they are difficult to impossible to keep in an aquarium for various reasons. Some species have very specific dietary needs that are not easily duplicated in an aquarium. Some Angelfish and Moorish Idols (Zanclus cornutus) require sponge, Anthias, certain Wrasses, and other fish have such high metabolisms that they will wither and starve without a constant and consistent food source. Other species just can’t acclimate to tank life because they stress too much for lack of open swimming space, adequate structure for hiding, improper temperature ranges, or intolerance to anything less than pristine water parameters.



You will have people on this and other forums who state it is cruel and unethical to purchase these fish. Let’s avoid that debate as in some cases I 100% agree and others not so much. But if a person is going to choose one of these species, there are actions they can take to try to achieve success. If you desire one of these species with unique care requirements, a harder level of difficulty, what can you do in order to fulfill that desire?



The first and probably most important step is to gather information about the specific species and its specific or unique needs. This will help you to understand what is required to improve your chances of success. It may also lead you to determine you cannot provide for this animal’s requirements, which would hopefully lead you to determine that this species is not right for you. So what are these requirements and how can we overcome them?



I have always loved the Blue Ribbon Eel (Rhinomuraena Quaesita), having tried one 20 years ago (zero knowledge purchased from an LFS is Denver) assuming they would be like other eels and easy to care for. Didn’t go well. Now I have read threads about them and it seems they can be kept with proper food availability and a series of pvc tunnels under the sand for them to have a secure den. This would be a species that I would consider setting up a system for, now that I have more knowledge and a source (our beloved Reef2Reef) for information that wasn’t available to me in the 90’s.



Once I got back into the Hobby in 2021 the internet became my best friend. Instead of coming home and looking up fish in Dr. Axelrod’s encyclopedia of Marine fish, I could now look them up in my phone while in the LFS. My wife @Ocean_Queenie made me promise to look up all our fish purchases to ensure compatibility, reef compatibility, and to avoid fish outside of my capabilities. I followed this agreement so well, until it came to the Purple Queen Anthias (Pseudanthias tuka). I had been looking at Dispar Anthias (Pseudanthias dispar) but not finding any at the LFS when I happened upon a school of Tukas. Had three of them in a bag and headed home before I looked them up. When I got home I looked them up and found out they had far different needs than I expected. I placed an order for pods (this was before I started culturing my own) but assume either not enough, too late, or the wrong pods. Turns out they would probably have faired better with free swimming pods like Acartia and Parvo as they have such high a metabolism requiring them to eat almost nonstop. Having an endless supply of pods, I would seriously consider trying these or a similar constant forager, but would caution others to avoid them unless they are going to setup a subscription for pods or culture their own. Also need to be committed to constant observation (after lights out) of tanks pod levels to ensure there is an adequate food supply. I am wondering if a consistent supply of rotifers, baby brine shrimp and adult brine in addition to pods would make keeping these guys possible, or as some suggest, it’s better to leave these guys in the ocean?



Since then, I have been very deliberate and cautious in my fish choices. As time has passed I have had the opportunity to try my hand at other challenging species with a mix of success and failure.



One such fish was a Blue Boxfish (Ostracion meleagris), which unfortunately was a failure. However I am not convinced that the fish was not starving when it came in. All the pictures that I have seen show their sides being straight giving them a “box” appearance, this fish came with inverted v shape, leading me to believe it was emaciated. To prepare for the receipt of this fish, I stocked up on live foods with the knowledge that it is often easier to get a fish to take live foods as you transition them to frozen or prepared foods. However we never witnessed him eating.



Sherry then gave me the nod on getting a Warty Frogfish (Antennarius maculatus). I will say this has been one of my favorite fish. Such personality and a face that almost looks human. I loved watching the lure come out attracting that unsuspecting meal. Watching it crawl on “hands and feet”. The absolute flash as he attacked, unbelievably fast. Daily attention was given to this beautiful fish as we fed live shrimp, and the occasional Molly. Reading about the difficulty of keeping these guys I prepared by stocking up on feeder shrimp and made the occasional trip to Petsmart for some fresh mollies. I really did awesome with this little guy, and felt so proud of how he had adapted and was taking krill, frozen shrimp and silversides from me. I found that using fishing line (no hook lol) worked really well to mimic live action, after feeding him this way for a time, he finally got to where he would take food without teasing as long as the flow moved it a little. Everything I knew told me to feed them sparingly, however Sherry would express concern that I wasn’t feeding enough. I knew they had slow metabolisms, but forgetting why I didn’t feed more and not wanting Sherry to feel I was abusing the little guy, I started feeding daily with everybody else. It wasn’t too long before I noticed our little guy looked bloated. Yeah, don’t over feed anglers because they digest really slowly and can get constipated. So after having this little guy for nearly a year, we lost him, and it was totally my fault. Once you do the research, don’t ignore what you learned.



Our latest addition to challenging species is our Ornate Leopard Wrasse (Macropharyngodon ornatus) named “Sparky”. These wrasses provide a challenge to adapt to an aquarium environment and need fed constantly throughout the day much like Anthias. We have had ours for 6 months now and he has quickly become one of my wife’s favorites. After a lengthy QT period (we dosed pods routinely during the process) she has been moved to our S1000 and is very active right up front. Not shy about eating at feeding time, and Sherry says she sees her hanging with our Falco Hawkfish (Cirrhitchthys falco) “Hacksaw McGraw” and they seem to be buddies. Having a sand dish and providing large amounts of live pods is a couple of steps we took to help this fish to thrive.



What are some fish you either want to keep that are touted as being difficult to raise? What difficult fish have you kept successfully, and what tips and or pointers can you share with us?

 

[ryanjohn1]

You mentioned a few that I really like and have wanted. Frogfish box fish. But I think the cow fish is cool too. But. Currently focusing on sps so.

 

[Reef By Steele]

Our favorite LFS had a huge yellow cow fish named “Besse” that my wife loved to watch when we were in there. I don’t remember how long they had it, but it was years. Unfortunately it passed a year or so ago.

 

[twentyleagues]

I've had two anglers in my life time. The first one was about 18 years ago. I had him for just over 2 years still not sure how I lost him. He would eat anything I hand fed to him. Dont remember what its called off the top of my head but he really liked those frozen gel cubes of food. I'd feed him once or twice a week and I'd vary it between mollies, live ghost shrimp, gut loaded on algae waffers or pellets, and the cubes about 1/3 to 1/2 a cube. He would eat soft pellets if I hand fed them. Like I said anything I tried to give him from my hand he would try, some he would spit out. I am not sure their lifespans in the wild. He was very small when I got him so I'd guess pretty young.

The second one got me back in to the hobby only had him a year. This one was very difficult to feed. It would often lure me to feed it then refuse to eat. I tried guppies didnt eat them, I now have about 20 saltwater guppies and hundreds of fresh water ones. He would eat the occasional molly. I didnt have good luck with breeding the mollies not sure why (actually think they eat more of their young then guppies). He really only wanted silversides most of the time, I tried to only get the ones @lion king suggests in his threads which was difficult but not impossible. He wouldn't touch the silversides if I put any vitamins on it and would actually not eat and would hide for 2-3 weeks if I tried to use vitamins. I started to put a couple veggie pellets in the silversides but it seemed like he figured it out and wouldnt touch them if I did that after the first couple times. Not feeding him too much was pretty easy as most of the time he didnt want to eat anyway. He grew, about doubled in size from when I got him. He actually wasnt much smaller then my first one when he died ( that was last week).

If I ever get one again I will get the molly breeding thing down and maybe ghost shrimp too, first.

 

[Reef By Steele]

I've had two anglers in my life time. The first one was about 18 years ago. I had him for just over 2 years still not sure how I lost him. He would eat anything I hand fed to him. Dont remember what its called off the top of my head but he really liked those frozen gel cubes of food. I'd feed him once or twice a week and I'd vary it between mollies, live ghost shrimp, gut loaded on algae waffers or pellets, and the cubes about 1/3 to 1/2 a cube. He would eat soft pellets if I hand fed them. Like I said anything I tried to give him from my hand he would try, some he would spit out. I am not sure their lifespans in the wild. He was very small when I got him so I'd guess pretty young.

The second one got me back in to the hobby only had him a year. This one was very difficult to feed. It would often lure me to feed it then refuse to eat. I tried guppies didnt eat them, I now have about 20 saltwater guppies and hundreds of fresh water ones. He would eat the occasional molly. I didnt have good luck with breeding the mollies not sure why (actually think they eat more of their young then guppies). He really only wanted silversides most of the time, I tried to only get the ones @lion king suggests in his threads which was difficult but not impossible. He wouldn't touch the silversides if I put any vitamins on it and would actually not eat and would hide for 2-3 weeks if I tried to use vitamins. I started to put a couple veggie pellets in the silversides but it seemed like he figured it out and wouldnt touch them if I did that after the first couple times. Not feeding him too much was pretty easy as most of the time he didnt want to eat anyway. He grew, about doubled in size from when I got him. He actually wasnt much smaller then my first one when he died ( that was last week).

If I ever get one again I will get the molly breeding thing down and maybe ghost shrimp too, first.

so sorry you lost him. The first one sounds amazing. mine wouldn't let me reach in anywhere around him. had to feed with a feeding stick or get the food to fall close to him as he wouldn't take it if it quit moving. but his little lure would sure pop out.

 

[twentyleagues]

so sorry you lost him. The first one sounds amazing. mine wouldn't let me reach in anywhere around him. had to feed with a feeding stick or get the food to fall close to him as he wouldn't take it if it quit moving. but his little lure would sure pop out.

Thanks. Yeah I was pretty bummed out but kind of expected it.

The first one was in my display fuge. I would tap on the glass and he would come tromping out of the caulerpa field waving his lure. He took on the colors of the caulerpa greenish yellow and a darker greenish grey banding. He was white and orange when I got him. Amazing fish love them so much.

 

[FernBluffReef]

I agree with your comments around some critters being classified by the sellers as expert only that maybe are not so much expert only but rather have poor survival rates from shipping and/or acclimation.

My tank is 3 months since getting wet and started with dry rock yet we got a Ritteri / Mag anemone at 30 days. Many say not to get a BTA until a year old let alone something like a Ritteri/Mag. Ours came with a bacterial infection (as many do) and had to be treated with a course of antibiotics. Since treatment, it’s only gotten strong and stronger in my tank that it “should not be in” and is now very healthy and looking for me to turn up the lights which I’m now slowing increasing and it’s enjoying itself and we are enjoying it as are the clowns.

We just recently acquired 4 Anthias (male + 3 females). These were pre-quarantined and really healthy. They were trained on mysis and had zero interest in pellets. They are now eating pellets like pigs and are ready for an autofeeder should we go on travel. I’m not worried about them starving. Folks do need to keep in groups hence why we have four.

Many would tell me I should not have any of these at all, let alone in such a young tank. I personally think in the cases I shared above it’s more about hard to ship and acclimate not so much expert care once acclimated. Hopefully I’m not proven wrong in the end.

That isn’t to discount the other fish as you say with very specialized diets etc. Those are truly expert only fish. I’m just piling onto your comments around some being classified as expert solely to avoid having to guarantee hard to ship and acclimate critters.

As to other expert fish I’d like to have. An Achilles tang comes to mind but I don’t believe my 112 gallons tank to be large enough for one. I wouldn’t mind a copperband (not quite expert) but the other half doesn’t like them and wanted the Anthias instead. With 18 fish already in the the tank now, it is fully stocked if not overstocked so my copperband may not happen.

Pic attached. Ignore the diatoms and Dino’s on the sand bed. Three months old with dry rock so still dealing with some uglys.

 

[Reef By Steele]

I agree with your comments around some critters being classified by the sellers as expert only that maybe are not so much expert only but rather have poor survival rates from shipping and/or acclimation.

My tank is 3 months since getting wet and started with dry rock yet we got a Ritteri / Mag anemone at 30 days. Many say not to get a BTA until a year old let alone something like a Ritteri/Mag. Ours came with a bacterial infection (as many do) and had to be treated with a course of antibiotics. Since treatment, it’s only gotten strong and stronger in my tank that it “should not be in” and is now very healthy and looking for me to turn up the lights which I’m now slowing increasing and it’s enjoying itself and we are enjoying it as are the clowns.

We just recently acquired 4 Anthias (male + 3 females). These were pre-quarantined and really healthy. They were trained on mysis and had zero interest in pellets. They are now eating pellets like pigs and are ready for an autofeeder should we go on travel. I’m not worried about them starving. Folks do need to keep in groups hence why we have four.

Many would tell me I should not have any of these at all, let alone in such a young tank. I personally think in the cases I shared above it’s more about hard to ship and acclimate not so much expert care once acclimated. Hopefully I’m not proven wrong in the end.

That isn’t to discount the other fish as you say with very specialized diets etc. Those are truly expert only fish. I’m just piling onto your comments around some being classified as expert solely to avoid having to guarantee hard to ship and acclimate critters.

As to other expert fish I’d like to have. An Achilles tang comes to mind but I don’t believe my 112 gallons tank to be large enough for one. I wouldn’t mind a copperband (not quite expert) but the other half doesn’t like them and wanted the Anthias instead. With 18 fish already in the the tank now, it is fully stocked if not overstocked so my copperband may not happen.

Pic attached. Ignore the diatoms and Dino’s on the sand bed. Three months old with dry rock so still dealing with some uglys.

Very nice. I have added bubble tip anemones into all three of my tanks that have clowns within probably the first 3 months or so. My S1000 was kind of a cheat as I moved most of the rock from my XL525 over when I started it. Planned to convert it to fish only, but it became another reef so I got a pair of clowns and an anemone, but it was kind of jump started as I left the sand and some of the rock. As for the Anthias yours appear to be maybe lyre tail, thise or dispar were what I had been looking at for a while. We ended up with some squareback which are orange females and a red ish male with lavender square in its side. They do not have the warnings that are out in the purple queens, even some of the people I have come to highly respect on this forum advise to stay away from them. I ended up with the Tukas as they were anthias and I had been reading a lot about the others and hadn’t seen the warning signs. Bad part with the queens is they can and will eat and last for weeks to a few months and you think everything is great. Then ours just all seemed to pass in about 10 days with no change in feeding, or water parameters. If I properly identified yours you should not see any problem with them as long as they are fed regularly as all of our cruising fish, anthias, wrasses like the sand sleepers and melanarus for reef safe or the larger like bird wrasse, sunset etc all expend so much energy with the nonstop motion (one of the reasons we love them so much) that they need fed multiple times a day, or have a natural food source. Pods, amphipods, etc that they can hunt all day long.

Great looking tank even if it were much older. I am a huge tang fan, awesome looking flame angel as well.

 

[ReeferHD]

I've always loved keeping unique fish, and oftentimes these unique fish have bad survival records, so far I've been able to successfully keep multiple types of Cowfish (Lactoria Cornuta. Tetrosomus Gibbosus. & Acanthostracion Quadricornis) I have tried Boxfish before but they seem to waste away after 6 months due to what I think is internal parasites, so maybe I'll try again in the future when I have a proper QT system, but anyway. I have also kept multiple anglers unsuccessfully. the first one I had only lasted a week, it suddenly became bloated and died. and the next one was tiny and I actually got it from Petco believe it or not, he ate frozen food and was a great little fish, Build Thread Here he lived in my refugium and I would turn on the light as a signal for feeding. he did great for 1 whole year and then suddenly passed, no indications whatsoever, I do believe anglers are best left the ocean, at least for now until we know more about them, but I disagree with people who say the same about cowfish, I've had a great experience with cowfish and almost everything I've read about them is untrue, they are great swimmers for one thing, and they take to all types of food, I recently just picked up a 1" longhorn and I already taught him to eat pellets, the trick is just getting a healthy specimen from the beginning.
let me know if you have any questions.

Ryan

 

[LaloJ]

Nice thread. The fish that I have always wanted are the multibarred angel, golden angel, coralivore butterflies such as Chaetodon baronesa, austriacus, melapterus, etc. And if I could have Colin's angelfish, hell that would be a dream, so all of these fish are considered "expert only", and it's very likely that I can be experienced enough to deal with some of them but the availability here in Mexico is terrible, and the quality of the fish is also very bad, that is a very important point if you want to be successful with fish as demanding as these, to give an example I must say that here I have never seen a Singapore angel eat, although this one is a difficult fish to care for is not considered "experts only", and I have never seen one in good condition, which leaves a lot to analyze.

 

[Ernie Mccracken]

I don't have the drive anymore, especially given how fish prices are 3x-4x what they used to be, but I think success really boils down to two factors:

1. Get the best one from the best source possible. If it took the usual trip through 3-4 different hands and spent the past month getting packed from box to box, your odds go way down.
2. Feed it something that it's already used to eating. Whatever it takes. If you buy a moorish idol and only feed it frozen mysis and pellets once/day, that's not gonna work, either.

 

[dyno]

I had a blue box for two years. Had to feed him heavy 3-4x a day. You won’t believe how much food they need to stay healthy. He jumped out of the tank one night when I fell asleep and left my canopy off by accident

 

[Reef By Steele]

Nice thread. The fish that I have always wanted are the multibarred angel, golden angel, coralivore butterflies such as Chaetodon baronesa, austriacus, melapterus, etc. And if I could have Colin's angelfish, hell that would be a dream, so all of these fish are considered "expert only", and it's very likely that I can be experienced enough to deal with some of them but the availability here in Mexico is terrible, and the quality of the fish is also very bad, that is a very important point if you want to be successful with fish as demanding as these, to give an example I must say that here I have never seen a Singapore angel eat, although this one is a difficult fish to care for is not considered "experts only", and I have never seen one in good condition, which leaves a lot to analyze.

Great points. The Singapore Angel I believe I tried one of those here from an LFS and never got it to eat as well. But yes, getting good fish to start with is so important.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

You may have seen this, but I’ve been working on a list of “animals to avoid” for many years. My latest list is here:

MARINE FISH AND INVERTEBRATES TO AVOID

Knowing which species have extra challenges helps home aquarists avoid heartbreak down the road. The following are some species that may pose problems for you, despite the level of care that you offer them.

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[LaloJ]

Great points. The Singapore Angel I believe I tried one of those here from an LFS and never got it to eat as well. But yes, getting good fish to start with is so important.

If the fish has not eaten during its entire trip to our personal tanks and has also been tremendously stressed by the movement between suppliers and sellers, adding to the difficulty it has either due to feeding or water quality demands, it It is more likely that he has no chance of surviving. An experienced aquarist might pass up opportunities to keep these fish when they see them in the LFS, but this is a case in point for beginners who are likely to acquire the fish because of how attractive it is, without knowing that they have actually just purchased.

 

[_cpate3_]

I’m not ballsy enough to keep expert only fish, as a beginner I can’t imagine I’d even try something like a powder blue tang or copper band for years to come. Luckily a professor I work with has 3 different frog fish, a blue ribbon eel, garden eels, octopus, mantis shrimp, mudskippers, seahorses, and is getting a purple weedy rhinapous all in his office. So I get to still see these crazy fish without actually having to worry about care, bus somehow he does it!

 

[littlefoxx]

Always wanted a Moorish Idol… dream fish since I was a kid.