How to Quarantine

[Humblefish]

or just add vitamins like Selcon to his food and wait to see if he fights it off himself.

^^ I would do this, because it also looks like he has HLLE forming near the eye.

 

[VJV]

@VJV Copper can reduce prazi's overall effectiveness (if they are mixed together), but not the other way around. I looked up Tremazol, and can't find any ingredient other than praziquantel listed. It looks to be a liquid medication (is it?), so they probably use a solubilizing agent. For example, Prazipro uses oxybispropanol and mixing that with certain other meds can lead to a bacterial bloom. What does Tremazol use?

I do not know which agent Tremazol uses, only that it contains Praziquantel as you said...[emoji852]

 

[jaws789832]

So I soaked some nori in selcon and put it in the tank and he is tearing it apart. We will see if it helps. I was going to wait a week before putting him in the DT. If those spots and the HLLE hasn't cleared up should I wait longer? He will be put in an acclimation tank in the DT for about a week as well/

 

[Humblefish]

So I soaked some nori in selcon and put it in the tank and he is tearing it apart. We will see if it helps. I was going to wait a week before putting him in the DT. If those spots and the HLLE hasn't cleared up should I wait longer? He will be put in an acclimation tank in the DT for about a week as well/

Those red spots need to be cleared up before be goes into the DT; but for the HLLE you can just continue to feed vitamin supplements in the DT.

 

[VJV]

@Humblefish. One thing has been bugging me. Given Ich's life cycle, how is it possible for a fish to carry it but never show any signs of it...? I mean, free swimming theronts have 48h to attach to a fish or die. They feed for up to 9 days during which period there should be tell tale signs like flashing and rubbing, not to mention the white spots. After that they drop off and within 48h encyst, which in some cases could last up to 10 weeks, though 28 days would be the norm.

So if this is the case, if a fish does carry a parasite in any of the lifecycle stages, would it not be mandatory for it to manifest if a fish were to be kept in quarantine for a period of 72 days?

The reason I ask is because after all my losses with cupramine I am seriously considering from now on quarantine the fish and observe, and only treat if ich manifests itself at some point during this period. The way I see it this should be 100% effective, unless I am missing something... (Not to mention a lot softer on the fish)

 

[Humblefish]

@VJV The problem is inside the gills. Ich trophonts and other parasites can harbor there sight unseen. In fact, I have seen velvet kill a fish without ever showing visible physical symptoms. I believe so has @4FordFamily. The dinospores invade the gills and the fish dies due to asphyxiation before dots on the skin ever have a chance to manifest.

Why the gills seem to offer the path of least resistance is not completely clear. For one, the mucous coat inside the gills is even thinner than on the skin. However, being fish breathe through their gills it may be that trophonts get "sucked in" that way and then just latch on. Whatever the reason, IME you typically won't see "white dots" on a fish with ich unless the infestation is heavy. People will go months/years without ever seeing ich in their DT, but then sometimes after a "stressor event" occurs their fish are suddenly loaded with it.

In the confines of a QT, visible physical symptoms of ich will usually manifest after a month or so. Possibly because the "stress" of being in QT lowers their immune system enough to bring it out. However, I cannot say that this will always be the case. It may stay hidden inside the gills. Behavioral symptoms (flashing, twitching, rubbing, heavy breathing) are much more common.

 

[VJV]

Precisely. Even if they are hidden in the gills, at least the rubbing flashing and twisting will manifest because the parasite will be attached and feeding, making the fish highly uncomfortable. And in that case during the 77 days the fish would be in quarantine that parasite would probably multiply by a couple of hundreds, making it highly unlikely (I would say next to impossible) that the fish would go through all that without ANY symptoms, not even flashing or rubbing.

 

[VJV]

Especially when you add high stress levels associated with quarantine, and weakened immune systems.

 

[4FordFamily]

Precisely. Even if they are hidden in the gills, at least the rubbing flashing and twisting will manifest because the parasite will be attached and feeding, making the fish highly uncomfortable. And in that case during the 77 days the fish would be in quarantine that parasite would probably multiply by a couple of hundreds, making it highly unlikely (I would say next to impossible) that the fish would go through all that without ANY symptoms, not even flashing or rubbing.

My strain just made them stop eating one day, hide the next and lose color, dead the following. No other symptoms. Months went by until my chevron tang showed the first classic dusting of velvet and swam in to my power heads and it hit me like a ton of bricks

 

[4FordFamily]

for what it's worth I've had no issues with cupramine killing fish to speak of - but have found it an ineffective medication at even higher than recommended doses. Just my experience, perhaps it's me. Coppersafe and copper power going forward go me.

 

[jaws789832]

Is Cuprion the same as Coppersafe and Copper power?

 

[Humblefish]

@VJV The problem in your particular situation (if I'm remembering correctly) is that you are not home much to observe the fish in QT. Your garden variety strain of ich completes its life cycle in roughly 30 days (± a week). (And this is not taking the 72 day variant into consideration.)

Of those 30 days, the trophont only spends 3-7 days feeding on the fish before dropping off. This is when you would see symptoms, including behavioral ones. That is a very small window.

 

[Humblefish]

Is Cuprion the same as Coppersafe and Copper power?

Cuprion is ionic copper, more similar to Cupramine.

 

[VJV]

@VJV The problem in your particular situation (if I'm remembering correctly) is that you are not home much to observe the fish in QT. Your garden variety strain of ich completes its life cycle in roughly 30 days (± a week). (And this is not taking the 72 day variant into consideration.)

Of those 30 days, the trophont only spends 3-7 days feeding on the fish before dropping off. This is when you would see symptoms, including behavioral ones. That is a very small window.

True. But given the confined space of the qt and the rate at which the disease multiplies at the end of two months the signs would need to be very visible. I understand that it has its holes, but after a lot of studying so does just about any technique short of putting the fish through copper for 72 days (because copper also only kills the free swimming stages so it is possible that 3 or 4 weeks are just not enough).

I guess I am leaning towards quarantining for a longer time and observing (though I will still use praziquantel for flukes) and not subject the fish to the harshness of copper.

I may try it one more time, this time starting with cupramine (to rule out potential interaction with the Prazipro as a cause) and buying a new bottle (to rule out a bad batch).

I have killed 4 out of 5 tangs that have gone through cupramine, and all these well under the therapeutical dose. I understand there must be something wrong with my protocol otherwise with these odds the web would be littered with horror stories like mine, and it is not the case. I have found some similar cases however, which reinforces my suspicion that perhaps some bad batches may exist.

Anyhow, thanks for the feedback and intelligent discussion, as always.

 

[4FordFamily]

I've used cupramine on probably 30 tangs now successfully and killed one. Coppersafe about a dozen (12 of the same fish actually) and lost one.

 

[4FordFamily]

IMO what kills fish the most during copper is ammonia from uncycled quarantine tanks. Giant daily water changes are needed.

 

[4FordFamily]

IMO what kills fish the most during copper is ammonia from uncycled quarantine tanks. Giant daily water changes are needed.

 

[robby2782]

IMO what kills fish the most during copper is ammonia from uncycled quarantine tanks. Giant daily water changes are needed.

Agreed

 

[VJV]

Agreed

Unfortunately not he case here. As I posted before this is a fully cycled 55gallon tank that has been running for some 5 months using biological media (some 2 liters of Seachem's Matrix) that had been previously in the sumo of the main system. Additionally I have a Seneye sensor connected to a laptop that constantly monitors NH3 down to 0,001 (the seachem's ammonia alert badge only goes down to 0,01).

I wish the answer was that simple...

 

[4FordFamily]

I didn't say it was what happened in your case, but primarily that's what I have found