How to Quarantine

VJV · Mar 8, 2016

I am in dismal... Just lost another Yellow tang in quarantine after starting with cupramine. I increased the dosage at half the recommended pace. First I raised concentration to 0,125, waited 24h and as the fish seemed fine raised it to 0,25. One day later I got home and the yellow tang was bracing heavily on the ground with the powder blue beating him down. I removed the yellow to another tang but it was a lady too late. Now prior to adding cupramine the bully was actually the yellow, who always chased the powder blue around so I guess the cupramine must have debilitated the yellow tang and the powder blue saw an opportunity for revenge.

The tank is a fully cycled 55gallon that has been running for more than 4 months now. I have (had) the yellow, powder blue, a pair of clowns and a lawnmower blenny in there.

They were in the tank for 3 weeks already and were all doing fine up until I started adding cupramine. Now the yellow is dead, the powder blue is not eating and hiding a lot. The clowns and the blenny seem to be fine.

This is not the first time I have losses with cupramine. At one point I thought I may have had a bad bottle so went and bought a new one.

I find very strange that this happens at such a low dosage, and with fish that are not supposed to be particularly sensitive to copper. I also find strange that even the fish that have made it through the treatment mostly loose appetite.

Do I have a (second) bad bottle? Seachem states that cupramine has indefinite shelf life so this should not be an issue, although both bottles that I have still have the old label.

Not sure what to do... [emoji20][emoji20][emoji20]

I am gutted to have lost fish that were apparently healthy. I know there will always be some losses but I believe my mortality rate is abnormally high, especially with tangs. Even at low dosages (0,25) fish tend to struggle with cupramine which does not make sense and does not follow what I have read from several other people.

Before I quarantined I lost half of my fish to ich, so now I quarantine and prophylactically treat everything. But I am not sure I want to continue to submit apparently healthy fish to this... I do not have access to alternative copper medicines her in Portugal and work abroad, so TTM is not for me.

Not sure what to do...

Humblefish · Mar 8, 2016

@VJV I may have asked you this already, but can you get CP in Portugal: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chloroquine-phosphate.192309/

I know when I lived in the UK it could be obtained from any chemist without a Rx.

VJV · Mar 9, 2016

Thanks Humblefish. Unfortunately not. I am really puzzled about this... The vast majority of people that use cupramine do not seem to have any issues (almost any). The first time I lost two tangs after adding the first dose of cupramine I ended up blaming ammonia (even though the seachem badge never reached anywhere near the alert level). The second time again a beautiful healthy powder blue died one week into the treatment. Again, I thought it was ammonia (even though the 3 chromis that were in thee at the same time made it through the treatment without much signs of loss of apetite.

Now I've lost the yellow and the powder blue is clearly struggling. He is hiding a lot and not eating as before.

Clowns, Chromis and Anthias (both lyretail and threadfin) seem to not be much affected.

But again, it puzzles me that this happens at such low dosage, raised at half the speed that seachem recommends...

reynaldoramon · Mar 9, 2016

My tang hated cupramine too. My tomini did the same thing you does. Lasted about a week too. Once they stop eating...kiss of death.

Humblefish · Mar 9, 2016

@VJV I wonder if you have a disease lingering in your QT that Cupramine doesn't address. Could be flukes, brook, or even a harmful strain of bacteria. Has the QT ever been dosed with Prazipro?

VJV · Mar 9, 2016

Humblefish said:
@VJV I wonder if you have a disease lingering in your QT that Cupramine doesn't address. Could be flukes, brook, or even a harmful strain of bacteria. Has the QT ever been dosed with Prazipro?

Yeah, i have doses the tank with Praziquantel a number of times. Almost all fish I got from the store had flukes so I always treat for that. Usually the first treatment is in a container before being put in the QT, and the second one is in a full tank dose a week later.

And these guys never showed any signs of flashing, rubbing or anything. They were perfectly fine until I started to dose cupramine.

This is the forth time it happens with cupramine. The others I always tried to find a reason other than cupramine but it is beginning to be too much of a coincidence, that every time I teat with Cupramine I have tang casualties. Two yellow tangs, one powder blue and a japonicus.

I am starting to wonder if I have a bad bottle of cupramine (this is actually the second one, albeit from the same vendor).

I am also thinking about not raising the level any higher than what it is already. Given the lifecycle of ich and the stress the fish has been through I believe that if it does not manifest itself in the next 7 weeks (they are in QT for 3 weeks already) than it must be clear of parasites.

I am just tired (and actually feeling very bad) of having these casualties.

VJV · Mar 9, 2016

Got home to this... Really gutted [emoji26][emoji26][emoji26].

Clowns and lawnmower do not look bad. They hide a little but when i feed they come out promptly.

Not sure whether to increase the dosage to therapeutical levels (0,35) and see how it goes for 3 weeks or just leave it at the current 0,25...

Humblefish · Mar 9, 2016

@VJV I hear ya. Hypo could be an option in your situation, but if velvet or brook ever reared its ugly head while you were away you would probably come back to a QT full of dead fish.

Due to the "stress" of being in QT (no rocks/substrate), visible symptoms of ich will usually manifest in 1 months time. That is actually a "pro" of bare bottom/rockless QT - to draw out any diseases the fish may have before entering the DT. However, I cannot say with certainty that this will happen 100% of the time.

VJV · Mar 9, 2016

Yes, I understand that. Given the clowns and the salaria seem to be doing ok I think I will raise the concentration and hope for the best. But I find very odd that this is happening. If Cupramine was a really unstable med there should be hundreds of accounts of deaths which there are not. This leads me to question whether it is possible that i have a bad batch??? Also, i have this bottle open for almost one year now. Seachem told me that i should not worry and that Cupramine has indefinite shelf life. Could this really be it...?

Too many questions, not enough answers...

The tally is now up to two yellow, two powder blue and one japonicus. All were in magnificent health, active eating and fat prior to cupramine dosing. I have found excuses for every other case but this time i cant find one: for whatever reason cupramine did this, even at a low level...

Humblefish · Mar 9, 2016

@VJV It's possible you could have a bad bottle of Cupramine. Just to be sure about something, have you ever used Prime or any other ammonia reducer in this QT? Probably already asked you that at some point.

Also, how do you test the Cu level? How are you testing for ammonia?

VJV · Mar 9, 2016

No, never used Prime or any ammonia binding product. I constantly monitor ammonia with a Seneye Reed monitor. It provides several readings per minute down to 0,001ppm of NH3. As a comparison, Seachem ammonia badge only reads down to 0,01. Current ammonia is at 0,004, so less than half of the lowest measurable limit of the Seachem badge.

Also, this tank has been running for 4 months, and the Seachem Matrix media that's in the canister filter prior to that was in the sump of my main display for another 2 months.

Humblefish · Mar 9, 2016

What test kit do you use to measure copper?

VJV · Mar 9, 2016

Sorry, forgot that one! I use the Seachem test. To be honest, it is almost useless. The continuous gradation makes it very difficult to see if it is at 0,1 or 0,2. Furthermore, the color tends to continue to develop with time. If you look at the end of the recommended 4 min it will be different from what it is at the end of 15min.

Having said this, I used the recommended number of drops to get to a concentration of 0,25 (divided by two doses) and the test is showing something that could be between 0,15 and 0,25, so I guess it is right.

reynaldoramon · Mar 9, 2016

I feel your pain. Cupramine was tough on my tomini tang that had ich. He didn't make it.

@Humblefish I think that yes...my clown may have ich after all. So disheartening. This was after never showing symptoms of ich...being in my DT for over a year, and TTM. Probably got it from the tomini. So I think I'm going to try copper again..but not cupramine. Got some Copper Power. I'll start tonight.

VJV · Mar 9, 2016

[QUOTsE="reynaldoramon, post: 2793548, member: 48518"]I feel your pain. Cupramine was tough on my tomini tang that had ich. He didn't make it.

@Humblefish I think that yes...my clown may have ich after all. So disheartening. This was after never showing symptoms of ich...being in my DT for over a year, and TTM. Probably got it from the tomini. So I think I'm going to try copper again..but not cupramine. Got some Copper Power. I'll start tonight.[/QUOTE]

Thanks [emoji846]. Well, in your case if the fish was already sick you never know if it was the cupramine or the ich that killed him. What really annoys me is hat i have killed perfectly healthy fish...

Humblefish · Mar 9, 2016

@reynaldoramon Sorry to hear.

You will need an API copper test kit to measure Copper Power. Therapeutic level in 2.5 ppm; however anything slightly over 2.0 should get the job done.

@VJV What Cu level do you treat at? 0.35 - 0.5 mg/L is therapeutic range for Cupramine.

VJV · Mar 9, 2016

@Humblefish I usually get to around 0,375 and stay there for 4 weeks. Even in the cases where the fish do not die I can see that they do struggle so I never get it up to 0,50. Also, I tend to get there very slowly, usually taking more than one week.

One thought did cross my mind: could this be a result of the interaction between praziquantel (Tremazol which has praziquantel @7%) and the cupramine? Not in terms of the interaction between them because I usually space the two by a couple of weeks, several large water changes and carbon, but in terms of accumulated toxicity for the fish. Like when we take to powerful medications in a row. Even if they do not interact the first one leaves us debilitated and potentially not strong enough to handle the second.... Does this make sense?

Humblefish · Mar 9, 2016

@VJV Copper can reduce prazi's overall effectiveness (if they are mixed together), but not the other way around. I looked up Tremazol, and can't find any ingredient other than praziquantel listed. It looks to be a liquid medication (is it?), so they probably use a solubilizing agent. For example, Prazipro uses oxybispropanol and mixing that with certain other meds can lead to a bacterial bloom. What does Tremazol use?

jaws789832 · Mar 9, 2016

OK six weeks in QT. Couple of days to adjust then 10 days of 2 doses of Prazipro. Then next 30 days with copper(cuprimine) Everything is going great. fish is eating great, but...... Today when I got home from work I noticed some discoloration on the fish. Today was the day to stop copper so I did a water change and added carbon but just wondering if copper can discolor the fish. He has sort of rust color spots on him and around his mouth. Any ideas?

1

Like I said, he still ate fine tonight and is acting normal in everyway. The spots are just on that one side and all around the mouth

melypr1985 · Mar 9, 2016

That could be an infection just starting to set in from where the parasites latched on to him. You can run an antibiotic like kanaplex or furan 2 to clear him up.... or just add vitamins like Selcon to his food and wait to see if he fights it off himself.