Forum Politics

[MnFish1]

Questions:

1. The vendor forum policy: Why are (some not all) negative posts moved from the vendor forum - when positive comments are left (to be debated - with multiple negative responses) are left in the vendor thread? For example - 'I love company A' - is left in the company A thread. 'I hate company A' is moved to another forum - where comments are deleted. Note - I've read the policy - I know the reasons - and its your site - and maybe you don't care - but judging from the messages I've received some others do. Just seems to me - that either you move all positives and negatives to the vendor forum - or none of them. (again its your site - and your discretion - but you asked)
2. Is there a place on the site (I saw @mdbamnister's post) where its described what the qualifications are - and how one becomes a moderator? (and who is a moderator - ie is everyone on the reefsquad a moderator - or is there a designation?)
3. Is there a difference between a reef squad member - and a moderator - and are they somehow pointed out?
4. Is it really a friendly site - when people feel they are nervous to post - because of a fear of 'being unfriendly'? Note - I dont mean rude, attacking, malicious behaviour.
5. Was a suggestion - let a persons (perhaps silly or stupid) comments stand or fail on their own merit. If I say something rude - a moderator should say 'this type of behavior is not permitted here' - so that I and everyone else sees it. As compared to private warnings. BTW - warnings in public can be friendly IMHO. But - often its like 'someone said something thats not appropriate - which leaves everyone wondering 'was it me'. Note - Its your site - I'm not telling you at all how to run it - this is just my opinion - which you asked for.

Just an aside - When people publicly (whether mods, or users or whomever) state they are leaving - I appreciate you asking them to stay. I also hope you take these comments in the spirit in which they were given - because - whether you believe it or not - 'something is different'. And PS - I hope you enjoy your weekend - and hopefully I didn't add more stress thereto.

PPS - there may be some other things to privately discuss should you want to. but for now good night.

 

[Evan28395950]

So much reading ;Dead Night all

 

[Sarah24!]

Hello,

I have not been on here as long as most or half but I still love the people here and glad I started this one first. Yes sometimes even I may sound a tad harsh etc. But as others say some take words to far. I have also noticed that (and it’s normal) some do not like change etc and will do anything to defend it. There are others who think for example cost is what makes a reef tank. Which that’s not true, but I’d never leave, if I did I wouldn’t have friends/

 

[MnFish1]

Hello,

I have not been on here as long as most or half but I still love the people here and glad I started this one first. Yes sometimes even I may sound a tad harsh etc. But as others say some take words to far. I have also noticed that (and it’s normal) some do not like change etc and will do anything to defend it. There are others who think for example cost is what makes a reef tank. Which that’s not true, but I’d never leave, if I did I wouldn’t have friends/

+1. Leaving is not usually a good solution - expressing oneself can be

 

[Shep]

1. The vendor forum policy: Why are (some not all) negative posts moved from the vendor forum - when positive comments are left (to be debated - with multiple negative responses) are left in the vendor thread? For example - 'I love company A' - is left in the company A thread. 'I hate company A' is moved to another forum - where comments are deleted. Note - I've read the policy - I know the reasons - and its your site - and maybe you don't care - but judging from the messages I've received some others do. Just seems to me - that either you move all positives and negatives to the vendor forum - or none of them. (again its your site - and your discretion - but you asked)
1) So I will let others chime in but the main reason is that for negative feedback, we want to keep the thread clean so that the OP and vendor have the best chance to resolve the issue. If lots of other people clutter up the thread, the OP issue or the vendor's reply can get lost in the chaos. Positive feedback, there is no issue to fix, so no fear of things getting lost.
2. Is there a place on the site (I saw @mdbamnister's post) where its described what the qualifications are - and how one becomes a moderator? (and who is a moderator - ie is everyone on the reefsquad a moderator - or is there a designation?)
3. Is there a difference between a reef squad member - and a moderator - and are they somehow pointed out?
2&3) Reefsquad members are more like support staff. Their job is to help members with issues or questions. They do not moderate members or content, they are not a mod. Typically they will eventually move up to be a RS leader and then possibly a mod. mods and RS members are usually selected by mods or members of the RS. They also come from community nominations. The qualification have previously been listed but to put them simply, be helpful, friendly and knowledgeable. There is a separate code of conduct that they are held to on top of the ToS. So if you hear that they are held to a "higher standard" that is what people are referring to.
4. Is it really a friendly site - when people feel they are nervous to post - because of a fear of 'being unfriendly'? Note - I dont mean rude, attacking, malicious behaviour.
4) So, we typically leave a post be unless its overly rude or aggressive, it take a lot to get us to remove a comment, we try and let the community respond and try and get the member to get back on track as a reminder, if that fails and they continue to act inappropriate, we will step in. Again this is not people saying "you're wrong" or something like that, I think people who are afraid of posting for fear of being banned or something are being a little dramatic to be honest. Simply having a post removed is not a big deal, its when there is a pattern it becomes an issue.
5. Was a suggestion - let a persons (perhaps silly or stupid) comments stand or fail on their own merit. If I say something rude - a moderator should say 'this type of behavior is not permitted here' - so that I and everyone else sees it. As compared to private warnings. BTW - warnings in public can be friendly IMHO. But - often its like 'someone said something thats not appropriate - which leaves everyone wondering 'was it me'. Note - Its your site - I'm not telling you at all how to run it - this is just my opinion - which you asked for.
5) Again, we let some of the more benign comments stay but in the end, these type of comments tend to just derail a thread and spiral it out of control. When that happens, even more comments have to be removed, so it just makes the most since to stop it before it gets any worse. Anytime a comment is removed for being inappropriate, the person is notified and given a reason. If you don't get notified for being inappropriate, then you have nothing to worry about. Plus when comments are aggressive, using vulgarity or completely over the top, what benefit is there in leaving that toxicity in a thread? Also, public warning (can easily be viewed as public shaming) don't always go ever well with the offender and can either make things worse or just drive that member away.

Just an aside - When people publicly (whether mods, or users or whomever) state they are leaving - I appreciate you asking them to stay. I also hope you take these comments in the spirit in which they were given - because - whether you believe it or not - 'something is different'. And PS - I hope you enjoy your weekend - and hopefully I didn't add more strewss thereto.
6) There is really nothing we can do when all we get told is "something is different", if you give examples of how things have changed we can attempt to address them and maybe we can make it better or maybe not but we can't try if we don't know. Also as a forum grows, things are going to change, there is nothing anyone can do about that. Sometimes its good, sometimes it bad but its inevitable non the less.

PPS - there may be some other things to privately discuss should you want to. but for now good night.

 

[Lasse]

There was an article by a “staff” member here posted a few weeks ago that started with a clear swipe at the folks that assist in the fish disease forum. Seems like a lot of people left around that time. I think it’s hard for this site to claim to be “friendly” when the moderators are bashing each other openly in such a brazen and disrespectful manner. IMO, that article should have been deleted immediately. It’s not surprising that humblefish isn’t around after that either. I understand the point of discussion and different viewpoints, but that thread was clearly written to misinform and to advance an agenda.

As for me, I came on this site looking for some new coral vendors. I’m always a little disappointed with forums. They could be a good resource, but ultimately, there is so much misinformation that I think they do more harm than good for the hobby.

People in my local reef club reached out to me after seeing some of the discussions I engaged in and said R2R was best enjoyed by ignoring about a few key people, so I followed their suggestion and agree that they are right.

The "staff" member he is talking about is me and the "article" is this thread. It is free for everyone to read that thread and judge who is bashing who. I did not feel bashed of any staff member in that thread - we did not have the same opinion in the matter but that´s another question. I report one post by a reef squad member because I thought it was not a appropriate respond from a reef squad member - the matter was sorting out later. About ignore some people in a forum - I´m not wearing a foil hat in private and not either in a forum. I do not exclude opinions I do not like and the reward for that is many good laughs and sometimes even new understandings. I have a well visited build thread where my way of thinking and way of reefing can be seen and judge of everybody.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

By the way

It’s not surprising that humblefish isn’t around after that either.

Humblefish last post was feb 19 2019 - my thread was posted jun 5 2019.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[reefwiser]

Man what a long thread in such a short time. [emoji3] I have been on fish forums since the internet existed. Probably before many posting in this thread where alive. [emoji3]
This is not a forum thing but a human thing. People process what they read thru all the kinky boxes in their heads and can interpret things completely different than what someone else will interpret the same line of txt.
I try not to get into any heated arguments on the net because I know if I was discussing the same topic in person with the person we could both have a better understanding of what the other person view was.
Writing is not any of our strong suits.
We write a reply for our own experience and many times it’s from the top of our heads.
When someone says something offensive to be I just post the muppet old men an stop responding to the troll.

 

[Lasse]

When someone says something offensive to be I just post the muppet old men an stop responding to the troll.

But if it is the Swedish Chief - what to do?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Zerobytes]

I'm new to reefing and this site has been invaluable for me in trying to figure stuff out. Yea, in the every forum there are always conversations/people that rub folks the wrong way and may not be the best communicators ('tis the Internet!) but I find this forum to be far more civilized than really any other I've been on through the years; granted I don't participate in a ton but most others I have experience with end up being a drag and an opportunity for folks to show off their insecurities. My .02 and I'm going to search searching for answers here!

 

[reefwiser]

 

[mta_morrow]

Is that a thing?

 

[Lasse]

Thanks - I´ll use that

Sincerely Lasse

 

[revhtree]

It’s a new day everyone! God’s mercy is new every morning and today I choose to be happy and not sweat things! I apologize for those I have offended in the past. I choose to try and be a better man, a better leader and more responsive to you all.

Thank you for being a part of this community. I truly mean that from the bottom of my heart!

 

[HotRocks]

The "staff" member he is talking about is me and the "article" is this thread. It is free for everyone to read that thread and judge who is bashing who. I did not feel bashed of any staff member in that thread - we did not have the same opinion in the matter but that´s another question. I report one post by a reef squad member because I thought it was not a appropriate respond from a reef squad member - the matter was sorting out later. About ignore some people in a forum - I´m not wearing a foil hat in private and not either in a forum. I do not exclude opinions I do not like and the reward for that is many good laughs and sometimes even new understandings. I have a well visited build thread where my way of thinking and way of reefing can be seen and judge of everybody.

Sincerely Lasse

I was a big "contributor" in lasse's thread. While sometimes I can be stubborn and very one sided when it comes to fish disease and treatment, I still respect the other side. We had quite the debate. The great thing about discussions like the one we are referring to is there is information that exists from both sides for one to decide what route to take.

I try not to take anything personally and I have been guilty of letting threads get to me which is when I usually try to take a step back. There are so many people here who are passionate about the hobby and the way they do things, so sometimes it's hard to remove that from a heated debate.

I certainly have the same respect for lasse before and after that thread started and there is a ton of great info within.

I think another thing we all need to consider is sometimes text is hard to differentiate or interpret. While we all have members we know personally, there are many more we have never met in person. So sometimes someone may write something that seems offensive (without blatant disregard of the ToS) to one person but someone else may see it as just fine. (Which by the way is what much of the moderation discussion that happens behind the scenes is spent determining). We all come from different parts of the world, have different personalities, different experience levels etc. The larger the membership becomes, the larger the margin for disagreement becomes.

I think overall we have a wonderful community, with great members which is why I'm honored to be a part of it. I attribute much of my success as a reefer to this site itself which is why I am dedicated to and thoroughly enjoy giving back to the community.

- Kyle

 

[hart24601]

I suspect these sort of challenges will continue from time to time and as, hopefully, the hobby and site grow. People just have so many personality types and communication styles and quite frankly they are not all compatible. There will always be members that communicate in a way that some find offensive whether or not they intend it or not and the frequency and severity of the posts vary a great deal. It's not easy to decide where that line is to provide a welcoming environment for, as an example, a teen or pre teen that might become a lifelong reef hobbyist.

From time to time this issue will come to a head, members that have been warned, again they may not have intended anything negative at all, whom might feel hurt from any reprimands and singled out (and honestly don't even understand why they got warned) band together to voice their concerns and grievances - nothing wrong with that of course but it can seem overwhelming especially as forums can get heated fast and single uses can post a lot and in various places.

I flat out just think it's going to happen from time to time. I don't see how it won't happen - but I do commend the effort to keep the site friendly overall. It's not easy to prevent forums from becoming a nasty place, and some people just prefer no moderation and will always feel borderline about the site.

 

[Antics]

In my experience R2R has been a great forum with a wonderful community. I’m not completely up to date with the random pockets of drama that seem to rear up here and there but for the most part it seems like there is a butting of heads between administration/moderation and a few outspoken or opinionated users? I hate to see people who I consider great members of the community leaving over these single or multiple disputes.

R2R is the antithesis of RC in terms of community from my experience on both forums. I know the comparisons are frequent and exhausting, but competition and the differences of the forums is critical for understanding why one is more popular in general or with certain people.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that I hope the hard line of preventing our community from sniping at one another like what was so common on RC doesn’t also push us into RC’s absolutely fanatical censorship issues.

No accusations towards the moderators or @revhtree specifically, but I mean you can’t even say R2R over there. Locking threads and specifically removing posts seems problematic for me in some ways. I’d much rather the ‘offensive’ behavior remain visible (with the public reprimand) as it gives a clear example of what type of behavior is tolerated and exactly how its policed.

Casual viewers of this thread are going to be mostly apathetic and unaware without piecing together 8 pages of posts and information from other users. Visible examples of the behavior in question makes it clear to R2R community what exactly is being discussed and leaves it up to the individual about what they are comfortable with in terms of R2R moderation policies in relation to the standards required for these elevated user groups.

 

[Brew12]

I want to weigh in on a few things here.

The members of the Reef Squad are not staff members. They have absolutely no role when it comes to site moderation. Their ability is limited to using the Report function just like every other member. We absolutely have reefing experts on different topics on the Reef Squad but it isn't a requirement. We have some people on Reef Squad that are relatively new to the hobby and who focus on making new members feel welcome and helping them get the most out of R2R. We also have known experts that use the site that are not members of Reef Squad.
Reef2Reef is a member driven site. Much of the best advice and content comes from our members. If you are trying to figure out whose advice to follow, I strongly encourage you to look at a picture of their system and not a banner under their name. If their system looks like what you want your system to be, you should listen imo. If you want an SPS dominant system it may not be the best idea to take advice from someone whose tank is a huge zoa garden. Their advice may be spot on, but it could just be what works for them and may not apply to you.
If there is a topic you feel strongly about, anyone is more than welcome to write an article on it and it will get the exact same consideration as if it were written by a staff member. We even have help available to "clean it up" and make it look more polished if you desire. If you write an article that does nothing but bash on @HotRocks we can almost assure you it will be accepted and published.

Moderating R2R isn't easy and it isn't fun and we certainly aren't perfect. One thing we do take very seriously is that we do not censor based on content. Even if we believe what is posted is factually inaccurate we will not remove that post. We feel there is value in letting the community discuss the topic and explain what is wrong with it. These can be great learning opportunities. We also recognize that what is taken as factual today may not be accepted as fact in the future. We want room for unconventional ideas to be discussed and grow.
We are also not immune from bias. Again, we are human. A person who has been a member for 5 years without being negatively reported will likely get more leeway than someone who has been reported 20 times in the past few months. The squeaky wheel gets the grease after all. I can also assure people that the moderation team does not actively go around looking for improper comments. If a member finds themselves having comments regularly deleted it is because other members of the community have an issue with them and not because a moderator is targeting them. R2R is too large for staff to monitor every comment.
If you find yourself being the target of a large number of reports it might be worth looking at how you"could" be coming across. Are you using humor that isn't coming across via text? Are you using trigger words/phrases like "you are wrong" or "obviously". Some words and phrases are designed to trigger a negative response which is why colleges offer courses on civilized debate. Maybe that needs to be the topic of a future article.....

 

[JoshH]

One thing we do take very seriously is that we do not censor based on content. Even if we believe what is posted is factually inaccurate we will not remove that point of sale

Now I'm assuming this philosophy applies only to reefing topic related threads correct?

And I'm glad the staff is leaving things open for us to bash on @HotRocks as we see fit. Seems very appropriate ;Smuggrin

 

[Auquanut]

Just a quick note to @revhtree, and the entire staff. I just want to express my deepest appreciation for all that every one of you do to keep our community the best there is. As R2R grows, your contributions become more demanding and more crucial. I for one (and I'm sure the rest of our community) recognize this and can't thank you all enough for all that you do. Are there issues? Sure. Always will be. Please don't be discouraged by any of the comments in this thread, as I'm sure they were all well intended. Not trying to derail the thread, just thought it might be a good time for a HUGE pat on the back.