Forum Politics

[JoshH]

The quote bolded below(I removed the members name - who is a member of the reef squad) - succinctly illustrates (to me) some of the change thats occurring here. On one hand @rehvtree said he wants to work with every member to stay in the site. On the other hand, staff members seem to be sending a different message. This type of post to me makes it a 'not nice place to hang out'.

At the end of the day, if anyone doesn’t like the site, staff, Reef Squad, whatever, they are free to go elsewhere, let’s try and keep this a nice place to hang out, that’s what the majority are here for.

I am by no means defending what was said atall but to further what was mentioned earlier, Reef Squad members are not R2R Staff. Therefor I don't think we can extend what is said by certain Squad members to a general view of the staff as a whole.

 

[RobW]

As my manager told me once, "use emoticons to help get tone across in messages." Tone and attitude don't come across well in written messages. Add emoticons, acronyms(lol, lol, etc), etc to help communicate your intention as well as message. I also think a lot of people on this site post before they have a chance to read what they've written. I like to reread whatever I post a couple times to make sure it is legible and polite.

So in other words... "that sounded mean. I better put an lol at the end of it?"

 

[MnFish1]

I feel it’s stated differently. I think what they are trying to say is keep the negativity out of it and keep this a nice community. It’s hard to keep everyone happy if you have a few bad apples. Not saying there is any in this thread, just in general.

I think we are looking too far into that statement.

I agree - it can be read a couple different ways - thats why I took away the name of the person. Perhaps thats the problem ? (Not wanting a debate - just explaining what I mean) - Its the nice friendliness in conjunction with a kind of underlying bite that really says - just follow along, do everything 'our way' don't disagree with a policy - or leave. I dont know to what this person was referring (he didnt quote another post) - but to me it didnt seem warranted at that time (in context).

 

[MnFish1]

I am by no means defending what was said atall but to further what was mentioned earlier, Reef Squad members are not R2R Staff. Therefor I don't think we can extend what is said by certain Squad members to a general view of the staff as a whole.

I was talking about the 'tone' of the site - not the reef squad - I have never criticised 'the reef squad' as a whole, just to be clear - I also love the site. I also have great respect for 'the reef squad', the owner, the admins, and the users.

EDIT - this was my response to that post:

At the risk of public ridicule - this is the problem - not the solution. And I have numerous times called on the reef squad with the tag to help another person. Read your words - are they friendly? Do they make it a 'nice place to hang out'? EVERYONE is here for that. Your words suggest otherwise. note - not wanting a debate here - but just read and think on what you are saying. Maybe I'm wrong - but to me this translates to 'agree to what I say - and then all is good - otherwise go away'. If I'm misinterpreting - feel free to answer.

 

[Silver14SS]

So in other words... "that sounded mean. I better put an lol at the end of it?"

Very similar to preface saying something offensive with "I don't mean to offend, but...".

 

[BestMomEver]

1. The vendor forum policy: Why are (some not all) negative posts moved from the vendor forum - when positive comments are left (to be debated - with multiple negative responses) are left in the vendor thread? For example - 'I love company A' - is left in the company A thread. 'I hate company A' is moved to another forum - where comments are deleted. Note - I've read the policy - I know the reasons - and its your site - and maybe you don't care - but judging from the messages I've received some others do. Just seems to me - that either you move all positives and negatives to the vendor forum - or none of them. (again its your site - and your discretion - but you asked)
1) So I will let others chime in but the main reason is that for negative feedback, we want to keep the thread clean so that the OP and vendor have the best chance to resolve the issue. If lots of other people clutter up the thread, the OP issue or the vendor's reply can get lost in the chaos. Positive feedback, there is no issue to fix, so no fear of things getting lost.
2. Is there a place on the site (I saw @mdbamnister's post) where its described what the qualifications are - and how one becomes a moderator? (and who is a moderator - ie is everyone on the reefsquad a moderator - or is there a designation?)
3. Is there a difference between a reef squad member - and a moderator - and are they somehow pointed out?
2&3) Reefsquad members are more like support staff. Their job is to help members with issues or questions. They do not moderate members or content, they are not a mod. Typically they will eventually move up to be a RS leader and then possibly a mod. mods and RS members are usually selected by mods or members of the RS. They also come from community nominations. The qualification have previously been listed but to put them simply, be helpful, friendly and knowledgeable. There is a separate code of conduct that they are held to on top of the ToS. So if you hear that they are held to a "higher standard" that is what people are referring to.
4. Is it really a friendly site - when people feel they are nervous to post - because of a fear of 'being unfriendly'? Note - I dont mean rude, attacking, malicious behaviour.
4) So, we typically leave a post be unless its overly rude or aggressive, it take a lot to get us to remove a comment, we try and let the community respond and try and get the member to get back on track as a reminder, if that fails and they continue to act inappropriate, we will step in. Again this is not people saying "you're wrong" or something like that, I think people who are afraid of posting for fear of being banned or something are being a little dramatic to be honest. Simply having a post removed is not a big deal, its when there is a pattern it becomes an issue.
5. Was a suggestion - let a persons (perhaps silly or stupid) comments stand or fail on their own merit. If I say something rude - a moderator should say 'this type of behavior is not permitted here' - so that I and everyone else sees it. As compared to private warnings. BTW - warnings in public can be friendly IMHO. But - often its like 'someone said something thats not appropriate - which leaves everyone wondering 'was it me'. Note - Its your site - I'm not telling you at all how to run it - this is just my opinion - which you asked for.
5) Again, we let some of the more benign comments stay but in the end, these type of comments tend to just derail a thread and spiral it out of control. When that happens, even more comments have to be removed, so it just makes the most since to stop it before it gets any worse. Anytime a comment is removed for being inappropriate, the person is notified and given a reason. If you don't get notified for being inappropriate, then you have nothing to worry about. Plus when comments are aggressive, using vulgarity or completely over the top, what benefit is there in leaving that toxicity in a thread? Also, public warning (can easily be viewed as public shaming) don't always go ever well with the offender and can either make things worse or just drive that member away.

Just an aside - When people publicly (whether mods, or users or whomever) state they are leaving - I appreciate you asking them to stay. I also hope you take these comments in the spirit in which they were given - because - whether you believe it or not - 'something is different'. And PS - I hope you enjoy your weekend - and hopefully I didn't add more strewss thereto.
6) There is really nothing we can do when all we get told is "something is different", if you give examples of how things have changed we can attempt to address them and maybe we can make it better or maybe not but we can't try if we don't know. Also as a forum grows, things are going to change, there is nothing anyone can do about that. Sometimes its good, sometimes it bad but its inevitable non the less.

PPS - there may be some other things to privately discuss should you want to. but for now good night.

Geez.... you talk to much! My brain hurts!!;Hilarious

Edit to say... you know I’m kidding. I’m sitting here folding clothes (underwear and socks more specifically) and I’m wondering how in the world I’d have the attention span to type that much!

 

[fish farmer]

This....

In my mind, there is always a nicer (or at least, not insulting) way to say most everything. I have never understood why people (in general) don’t try a little harder. Being ugly serves no purpose. You can always offer advice or instruction without being rude. Yes, there are some that will always try to justify their actions or opinions (never wrong) and choose to ignore all advice given. I think at some point, it’s just best to let it go.

I try to live my life never having to say “I’m sorry” for my actions or words.

Some people just can't play nice with others, ever. It could be a personality disorder, etc. getting in the way of being nice or helpful. I think back to an old boss I had who came across as a know it all, condescending, unpleasant person, he was just like that in every job he ever held. This person was very toxic and difficult to work with.

 

[PirateDan]

Ok so what do you want me to do about it? I’ve tried explaining to you the best I can. I don’t know what else to do.

Can’t please everyone.

 

[BestMomEver]

Some people just can't play nice with others, ever. It could be a personality disorder, etc. getting in the way of being nice or helpful. I think back to an old boss I had who came across as a know it all, condescending, unpleasant person, he was just like that in every job he ever held. This person was very toxic and difficult to work with.

Agreed.... I try but often fail. At that point I have to walk away. My mom always told me, “If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all.” Do I get angry? You bet! Do I really want to say something sometimes that isn’t quite nice? Yup! I mutter under my breath and contemplate expressing myself with other words. I talk a big game, but in the end, find being kind is always better.

 

[erk]

So in other words... "that sounded mean. I better put an lol at the end of it?"

There is no hiding a nasty email with a lol. I know, I've tried.

 

[RobW]

Some people just can't play nice with others, ever. It could be a personality disorder, etc. getting in the way of being nice or helpful. I think back to an old boss I had who came across as a know it all, condescending, unpleasant person, he was just like that in every job he ever held. This person was very toxic and difficult to work with.

I can be that way at work sometimes. I have been doing what I do for so long that I sometimes forget that the new guys in the trade dont have as much experience. I often find myself thinking "why dont you understand what I'm talking about?" "We do this everyday!" Then I have to apologize for being a little jerky. Then I have to slow down, take a breath and remember that I am trying to pass on knowledge and bring up new guys. Everyone learns at a different pace and that sometimes can be frustrating in itself.

 

[JoshH]

The quote bolded below(I removed the members name - who is a member of the reef squad) - succinctly illustrates (to me) some of the change thats occurring here. On one hand @rehvtree said he wants to work with every member to stay in the site. On the other hand, staff members seem to be sending a different message. This type of post to me makes it a 'not nice place to hang out'.

At the end of the day, if anyone doesn’t like the site, staff, Reef Squad, whatever, they are free to go elsewhere, let’s try and keep this a nice place to hang out, that’s what the majority are here for.

I was talking about the 'tone' of the site - not the reef squad - I have never criticised 'the reef squad' as a whole, just to be clear - I also love the site. I also have great respect for 'the reef squad', the owner, the admins, and the users.

EDIT - this was my response to that post:

At the risk of public ridicule - this is the problem - not the solution. And I have numerous times called on the reef squad with the tag to help another person. Read your words - are they friendly? Do they make it a 'nice place to hang out'? EVERYONE is here for that. Your words suggest otherwise. note - not wanting a debate here - but just read and think on what you are saying. Maybe I'm wrong - but to me this translates to 'agree to what I say - and then all is good - otherwise go away'. If I'm misinterpreting - feel free to answer.

I'm just going off you had directly quoted a post from a RS member and in your response had said that the Staff itself were sending a different message that what REV has been saying referring to the post as an example. To me atleast this seems to be grouping the RS with Staff members, which I'm sure wasn't your intent but just something I wanted to clarify.

And I agree that no where you nor I have criticized the RS as a whole and it wasn't my intent either.

 

[RobW]

I've had a pretty good experience with the site so far. I cant really complain. There may have been a time or two when I sounded abrasive with a member. Not really my intention but, my delivery is usually rather direct. I've been known to hurt some feelings. Especially with the younger generation. Lol

 

[MnFish1]

I'm just going off you had directly quoted a post from a RS member and in your response had said that the Staff itself were sending a different message that what REV has been saying referring to the post as an example. To me atleast this seems to be grouping the RS with Staff members, which I'm sure wasn't your intent but just something I wanted to clarify.

And I agree that no where you nor I have criticized the RS as a whole and it wasn't my intent either.

Thanks - yes - this relates to part of the question in the OP - reef squad members are held to 'a higher standard' (IDK) - and some reef squad are moderators - some are labeled that way - but some who are not labeled as moderators seem to be acting in that capacity. (Thats part of what prompted my question about who was who - and how do we know). It was more for education.

 

[eatbreakfast]

I feel it’s stated differently. I think what they are trying to say is keep the negativity out of it and keep this a nice community. It’s hard to keep everyone happy if you have a few bad apples. Not saying there is any in this thread, just in general.

I think we are looking too far into that statement.

+1000

 

[Shep]

Geez.... you talk to much! My brain hurts!!;Hilarious

Edit to say... you know I’m kidding. I’m sitting here folding clothes (underwear and socks more specifically) and I’m wondering how in the world I’d have the attention span to type that much!

I only typed the bold parts.

 

[BestMomEver]

I only typed the bold parts.

Whew! I was worried for a bit!;Cyclops

 

[Brew12]

As to deleting posts meant to mention another thing. A notification is sent - but if someone has quoted that post - its still on the site. Unless I missed it - the reason the post was deleted is not mentioned. A suggestion - perhaps when a post was deleted - whoever did the deleting just deletes the text and type something like 'post deleted for 'whatever''.

I used to feel this way, also. I was of the opinion that the more we could communicate about why a post was deleted the better. I've learned fairly quickly that the majority of users don't want to know. Since the vast majority of members have never had a post deleted they feel no connection and would rather not even know when it happens. People come here, in part, to get away from the negativity that exists on the internet. They don't want constant reminders in the form of notifications about the negativity that occurs on R2R. They prefer it to be invisible.
I can also say that my experience is that those who are privately notified about why their posts are deleted (which does happen on occasion) rarely take it well. It's best, imo, to not have that play out in a public forum.
When we do have to delete a post we do our best to delete anywhere it was quoted, also. Any post that we notice that wouldn't make sense without the deleted post may be deleted.

As to the vendor forum thing - I know this has been complained and talked about before. I know the 'reason' - but you didnt really address a couple of points I brought up - which are - posts are only moved if they are in the first post in the thread - if someone makes a positive comment - and someone says - "no thats not true - xxx company has terrible customer service - im waiting for a refund" - that post stays in the original threat - its not deleted - so when people discuss that positive post they are having the same 'debate' but the posts aren't moved, etc.

This is a tough one to answer. It's hard to define what is "feedback". Some are very clear in that an order was placed and something was wrong. These are normally the first post and should always be moved to the vendor feedback area and outside comments scrubbed. Others have a wide gray area. At what point does a product review become vendor feedback? We do allow negative product reviews outside of the feedback section. We normally will only act if we feel that the OP has a grudge against a supplier and it isn't a legitimate review. Trying to figure out when that line is crossed is a challenge.

Why do we focus on the negative reviews? Several reasons. As has been previously mentioned we want the vendor and the member to have a chance to either reach an agreement or at least lay out each of their positions publicly so other members can be informed. We don't want R2R to become a place where everyone comes to complain. I recently had to review a situation where a member is still posting negative things about a vendor over an event that happened years ago. It doesn't even appear to be the vendors fault and instead was a problem with the retailer. We do have members that stalk vendor threads looking to post negative content at every opportunity. This isn't the feel we want for R2R.

This isn't an issue with positive posts so we don't give them the same attention. People are also much less likely to report a positive feedback than a negative one so they likely never make it to our attention. This can work against the vendors. I almost always search the feedback section for information on vendors I am not familiar with prior to making a purchase. It helps them if positive feedback is seen on these searches. It's rarely there.

Some more thoughts on this.... We do not treat posts about sponsor vendors differently than non sponsor vendors. Sponsorship isn't even discussed when these decisions are made. We do not move or delete posts at the request of a sponsor vendor unless it is in violation of our ToS, just like we would do with any other members. I can assure you that many members of the moderation team are passionate about not protecting sponsor vendors.

We want members to be aware of negative experiences with vendors, sponsor, but we don't want negativity to permeate the forum. We feel the feedback policy is the best way we have to find that compromise. Positive feedback isn't so much excluded from this policy as much as it just doesn't have the urgency that requires moderator action. It may not always feel that way, but we do try to moderate as little as possible.

 

[MnFish1]

I used to feel this way, also. I was of the opinion that the more we could communicate about why a post was deleted the better. I've learned fairly quickly that the majority of users don't want to know. Since the vast majority of members have never had a post deleted they feel no connection and would rather not even know when it happens. People come here, in part, to get away from the negativity that exists on the internet. They don't want constant reminders in the form of notifications about the negativity that occurs on R2R. They prefer it to be invisible.
I can also say that my experience is that those who are privately notified about why their posts are deleted (which does happen on occasion) rarely take it well. It's best, imo, to not have that play out in a public forum.
When we do have to delete a post we do our best to delete anywhere it was quoted, also. Any post that we notice that wouldn't make sense without the deleted post may be deleted.


This is a tough one to answer. It's hard to define what is "feedback". Some are very clear in that an order was placed and something was wrong. These are normally the first post and should always be moved to the vendor feedback area and outside comments scrubbed. Others have a wide gray area. At what point does a product review become vendor feedback? We do allow negative product reviews outside of the feedback section. We normally will only act if we feel that the OP has a grudge against a supplier and it isn't a legitimate review. Trying to figure out when that line is crossed is a challenge.

Why do we focus on the negative reviews? Several reasons. As has been previously mentioned we want the vendor and the member to have a chance to either reach an agreement or at least lay out each of their positions publicly so other members can be informed. We don't want R2R to become a place where everyone comes to complain. I recently had to review a situation where a member is still posting negative things about a vendor over an event that happened years ago. It doesn't even appear to be the vendors fault and instead was a problem with the retailer. We do have members that stalk vendor threads looking to post negative content at every opportunity. This isn't the feel we want for R2R.

This isn't an issue with positive posts so we don't give them the same attention. People are also much less likely to report a positive feedback than a negative one so they likely never make it to our attention. This can work against the vendors. I almost always search the feedback section for information on vendors I am not familiar with prior to making a purchase. It helps them if positive feedback is seen on these searches. It's rarely there.

Some more thoughts on this.... We do not treat posts about sponsor vendors differently than non sponsor vendors. Sponsorship isn't even discussed when these decisions are made. We do not move or delete posts at the request of a sponsor vendor unless it is in violation of our ToS, just like we would do with any other members. I can assure you that many members of the moderation team are passionate about not protecting sponsor vendors.

We want members to be aware of negative experiences with vendors, sponsor, but we don't want negativity to permeate the forum. We feel the feedback policy is the best way we have to find that compromise. Positive feedback isn't so much excluded from this policy as much as it just doesn't have the urgency that requires moderator action. It may not always feel that way, but we do try to moderate as little as possible.

Thanks - I appreciate your reasoning. I guess this bears repeating. The purpose of my post originally was not to bash the site or complain about policies or whine about deleted posts. It was to point out that things have changed (IMO) with moderation of posts, threads, etc. The recent LiveAquaria thread thing where multiple posts of mine were deleted (though they were helpful - to the OP and the vendor) - were just deleted because of a 'policy' that (for many of the reasons you stated above) - seems inconsistent. This reminded me of several similar but different issues - that really made me think - perhaps something should be said. I'll PM you about your post above so as not to seem like this is a debate.

 

[Brew12]

The recent LiveAquaria thread thing where multiple posts of mine were deleted (though they were helpful - to the OP and the vendor) - were just deleted because of a 'policy' that (for many of the reasons you stated above) - seems inconsistent.

I understand your concern with this and the position you view it from. I wasn't involved in that thread so I don't know what was said. I even agree that good information is often lost when a post is moved to feedback and scrubbed. It's one reason why we prefer not to do it. But, once the decision is made, we do scrub every post with the exception of moderator comments reminding people outside comments are not allowed. Even comments from staff that don't fit that category are removed.

In the past, we have gone back at a members request and recovered deleted posts so the information could be shared in a new thread or a non-feedback thread. I know how frustrating it is having a post that I have put time and effort in getting deleted through no fault of my own.

I can't stress enough that our reasoning for this isn't to protect vendors. In this specific case you are more than welcome to start a new thread about what you were trying to share about Live Aquaria and I can help recover the information so you don't have to put the work in again. Presentation is important. If it comes across as informative it is fine. If it comes across as bashing or trolling then it may cause issues.