Fish dropping dead
- Thread starter Mariette
- Start date
- Tagged users None
Punchanello
Well-Known Member
What type of copper did you use and at what dose? What are you using to check copper levels? What is the aeration like in the tank?
Wrasse can be very sensitive to copper. I have had a lot more success with TTM, but that would be difficult with so many fish.
Wrasse can be very sensitive to copper. I have had a lot more success with TTM, but that would be difficult with so many fish.
burningbaal
Active Member
I've never done much in the way of quarantine, but I'm of the opinion they should at least start with no meds. Let them get used to your tank, find their home (pvc pipe), maybe even helps to adjust to your salt mix, etc. Then you might give them a half dose of copper and see how they tolerate it, if it goes well, move to a whole dose. if not, I'd probably just keep them in quarantine extra long and hope for the best.
note: I would argue strenuously against the idea of giving a half-dose of antibacterials and antifungals, this mostly just gives an opportunity for a resistant strain. but resistance to copper is nearly impossible (for things that can't normally tolerate it). Even if I wanted to dose an antibiotic, I'd still give them a week or two to settle into QT before medicating. I just want to reduce some stress on them.
I commend you for caring about your critters and for reaching out. My advice isn't worth much since I'm not big into QT, but I have a background in microbiology (B.S.) so I figured I'd ad my $0.02.
One other thing to maybe try is Safety Stop. I know Melev swears by the stuff. I have three little guys in my nano today and any other fish that might go in will go through safety stop before heading into the tank. I think it's the best 'halfway'. I'm not totally sure about velvet, but since it's external and formalin is pretty rough on prokaryotes, I'd guess it's fairly effective. You might give it a try.
Maybe the best answer is to use safety stop on the way into a QT tank and leave them without treatment for a couple weeks to settle in? that should clean up external parasites before they even start QT, leaves them with lower stress as they get used to QT, and you can still treat them for internals or other visible things before exposing your display
note: I would argue strenuously against the idea of giving a half-dose of antibacterials and antifungals, this mostly just gives an opportunity for a resistant strain. but resistance to copper is nearly impossible (for things that can't normally tolerate it). Even if I wanted to dose an antibiotic, I'd still give them a week or two to settle into QT before medicating. I just want to reduce some stress on them.
I commend you for caring about your critters and for reaching out. My advice isn't worth much since I'm not big into QT, but I have a background in microbiology (B.S.) so I figured I'd ad my $0.02.
One other thing to maybe try is Safety Stop. I know Melev swears by the stuff. I have three little guys in my nano today and any other fish that might go in will go through safety stop before heading into the tank. I think it's the best 'halfway'. I'm not totally sure about velvet, but since it's external and formalin is pretty rough on prokaryotes, I'd guess it's fairly effective. You might give it a try.
Maybe the best answer is to use safety stop on the way into a QT tank and leave them without treatment for a couple weeks to settle in? that should clean up external parasites before they even start QT, leaves them with lower stress as they get used to QT, and you can still treat them for internals or other visible things before exposing your display
OP
OP
Mariette
Valuable Member
Thank you. Yes. It’s very difficult.
Wipeout 1: Ich
the 1st wipeout was the worst as it effected the most fish. I had 7 fish in my 55g and was adding my last fish. 7 fish w no qt and issues. Fish #8? ICK! Lost 6 of my 8 fish within a week. It was horrible.
Wipeout 2: Velvet
Had 3 fish in observational qt. All 3 appeared fine after a month. Within a week of going into DT, where I had maybe 2 fish, Velvet struck. Only 1 made it through treatment
Wipeout 3: Flukes
Had 2 fish in observational qt. Added a third. Third brought in Flukes. 1 survived the disease but died of resulting infection.
So you see why I went with the treatment option this time. I was hoping to avoid death
I have 1 fish in a 110g DT and was hoping to bring him some disease free friends
OP
OP
Mariette
Valuable Member
Copper used: Cupramine at 0.5 for 14 days as per instructions. Can’t get Hannah checker everyone on here raves about. I use one of the crappy colour chart ones.
Aeration is good. HOB filter creating a 2 inch waterfall. Airstone. Mini powerhead aimed at surface. One thing I can say confidently is that aeration is not the problem.
If I do try another wrasse, i will strongly consider the TTM method.
OP
OP
Mariette
Valuable Member
Update: all 4 fish appear fine.
Clown: still symptom free and eating
Goby: no longer swimming funny. Is now back to normal behaviour.
Gramma: still improving
Wrasse: appears fine. No more poking head out of water and acting funny.
Thank you all for the advise. Going forward, I think I’ll qt 2 fish at a time. 2 mths minimum. Nice long observational qt w meds only if needed. Qt will be 20g w biospera and w live rock and substrate and everything needed to make the fish comfortable. If disease strikes, they’ll go into sterile qt w no live rock or substrate for treatment.
Once again, thank you all for the advise and I’ll keep you posted. Wish me luck
Clown: still symptom free and eating
Goby: no longer swimming funny. Is now back to normal behaviour.
Gramma: still improving
Wrasse: appears fine. No more poking head out of water and acting funny.
Thank you all for the advise. Going forward, I think I’ll qt 2 fish at a time. 2 mths minimum. Nice long observational qt w meds only if needed. Qt will be 20g w biospera and w live rock and substrate and everything needed to make the fish comfortable. If disease strikes, they’ll go into sterile qt w no live rock or substrate for treatment.
Once again, thank you all for the advise and I’ll keep you posted. Wish me luck
OP
OP
Mariette
Valuable Member
Your advise is worth plenty. 4 out of 8 fish in qt are dead. Clearly, something I’m doing isn’t working.
Lots to oook into and consider.
I won’t be doing the same qt again. That’s for sure
If I may make a suggestion, feed your fish like you are trying to fatten it up for thanksgiving.
Your fish will appreciate it and will be in a much better position to fight off minor diseases such as ich.
I don’t prescribe to the idea that if nutrients are high I should feed less. I should improve nutrient export. Health and happiness of the fish comes first.
Your fish will appreciate it and will be in a much better position to fight off minor diseases such as ich.
I don’t prescribe to the idea that if nutrients are high I should feed less. I should improve nutrient export. Health and happiness of the fish comes first.
RtomKinMad
Well-Known Member
I think someone said but did you have a powerhead and Airstone? The meds and copper decrease the oxygen and fish need it. Just a thought.
tony'stank
Active Member
I am sorry about your losses. I agree with what others have said about overfeeding. I would recommend that you wash out your QT tanks with a dilute bleach solution , vinegar will not sterilize most fish diseases. My quarrintine tanks have only PVC and plastic ornaments - nothing that could absorb or adsorb copper . I always use an Ammonia badge as an alert. I never quarantine more than one or two fish in a tank at a time. This routine has worked well for me
burningbaal
Active Member
Definitely this. In microbiology, the only guarantee when killing microbes (that's reasonable food us hobbiests) is 1 part bleach, 9 parts tap water. Soak for at least ten minutes after it is visually clean, then rinse clean and dry. You can use probe water if you want.
Best to use boring unscented stuff. Vinegar is great for cleaning, but it doesn't sterilize anything.
OP
OP
Mariette
Valuable Member
Update: because, evidently, I didn’t mess these poor fish up enough, last night’s water change was a disaster. I somehow thought my yellow wrasse was in hiding in 1 spot but he was, in fact, on the other side of the tank. While suctioning the substrate, I sucked up a terrified wrasse. Seeing him in the tube panicking was like watching a horror movie in slow motion. Needless to say, I think I traumatized the poor guy. I got him out quickly and he hasn’t displayed any signs of injury yet but I’m feeling like the worst fish owner of all time.
On another note: anyone know if ammonia reducers/binders are safe to use with meds? Water changes will be my 1st line of defence, obviously, but I’d like that in my back pocket in case anything goes wrong.
On another note: anyone know if ammonia reducers/binders are safe to use with meds? Water changes will be my 1st line of defence, obviously, but I’d like that in my back pocket in case anything goes wrong.
burningbaal
Active Member
It might be okay if it fit okay. Stressful, probably, but he might be okay.
I hear dechlorinator (prime) it can be pretty toxic when combined with copper treatment, but not sure about ammonia reducers. Not do I have a direct to cite, for the dechlorinator problem,so I'd definitely do careful research.
With an ammonia badge, only one or two fish in the tank, heavy water change schedule, you'd probably be okay. Most treatments will wreak havoc in the bacterial population, so I would some you get limited value from a bacterial reduction plan (biospira, wet-dry, hob, etc). The biological methods for ammonia reduction shouldn't cause any issues, but with a medicated QT, they probably don't do much. They should be fine in hyposalinity if you want to try that.
Similar threads
