FDA warns Chewy kraft drug and fish antibiotics company

[MnFish1]

...What I mean is, it doesn't look to me like the letters are targeting general aquatic usages of erythromycin, or metronidazole, doxycycline etc. but are instead singling out a few select products of those meds?

You may be correct - My point was - wait a year. Not entirely clear to me why a company that has amoxicillin listed right on its label would be any different that a company that has kanamycin listed on its label. In the rest of the world none of these drugs are available. And - I see no reason (if one believes the logic of Canada and the EU) why it would be different here. Despite the sources of some members.

 

[jda]

Just a quick chat for now, but these products in questions are not made in facilities that are registered, approved and have unknown purity, methods and techniques likely lower than basement labs cutting, repackaging and supplying illegal drugs. Then, add in the focus on human consumption.

 

[MnFish1]

Just a quick chat for now, but these products in questions are not made in facilities that are registered, approved and have unknown purity, methods and techniques likely lower than basement labs cutting, repackaging and supplying illegal drugs. Then, add in the focus on human consumption.

Here is a list that is effective as of 2021. There are multiple multinational companies - producing multiple different antibiotics, so, it doesn't make complete sense that these are fly-by-night companies in a basement lab. However, As is usual with the government, the wording is not exactly clear. For example let's say zoetis supplies tylosin to someone to make an cyanobacter eliminator. Seems to me that this would no longer be allowed. Here is the link of 'medically important antimicrobials': https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterina...new-animal-drug-applications-affected-gfi-263

Here is what the FDA says: "With the successful implementation of GFI #213, approximately 96 percent of medically important antimicrobials used in animals are now under veterinary oversight.

The remaining four percent of medically important antimicrobials currently marketed as OTC products for food-producing and companion animals include other dosage forms, such as injectables. Once the recommendations in GFI #263 have been fully implemented, all dosage forms of medically important antimicrobials approved for use in animals could only be administered under the supervision of a licensed veterinarian, and only when necessary for the treatment, control or prevention of specific diseases. Although animal owners would still have access to medically important antimicrobials to address animal health issues, they would need to consult their veterinarian to obtain a prescription."

So - medications designated as 'medically important' are going to be required to have a prescription as of Jan 2024. The behind the scenes reading (to me implies) - that this list is 'just a start'.

 

[MnFish1]

@jda - you asked if anyone read the documents - having read the documents - to me it seems clear - in a short period (2 years for the government) - antibiotics will be disallowed without a doctor's prescription. As in many other countries. I'm curious - MANY countries have banned antibiotics - why would anyone think that the USA will not do the same? There is a difference of what you want to happen vs. what is clearly going to happen

 

[jda]

I hope so. If it does, it has nothing to do with this stuff that started this thread. 9,994 times left to say this out of my prediction of 10,000...

 

[MnFish1]

I hope so. If it does, it has nothing to do with this stuff that started this thread. 9,994 times left to say this out of my prediction of 10,000...

you could be more specific - though you were the one asking if anyone read the FDA documents?

 

[Tavero]

Wow, that is some heavy conspiracy thinking.

Do you have any evidence that any pharma company dumps antibiotics into rivers? That would be a huge EPA violation.

Antibiotics in rivers comes from consumers peeing them out, or flushing unused pills.

Sorry to tell you that Randy but sadly there is no conspiracy there. I have studied Environmental science, remediation, and cleaner production and sadly it is all true.
It's a fact a majority of companies are unwilling to produce their products properly. Therefore the EU is now forced to ban every single pfas. If companies didn't dump their waste products into the next river we wouldn't have this discussion.

Per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) - ECHA

echa.europa.eu

A lot of starting materials and the antibiotics themselves are produced in less sanitary countries like India where dumping waste products into the ganges river is a non issue. The results are instant multi resistant pathogens.
Some river and groundwater there exceed the regulatory limits of organics and heavy metals by 10000x and the soil around it would be considered a profitable mining spot by some western companies.

Antibiotic Misuse in India Could Exacerbate Drug Resistance

New research suggests there is widespread overuse of antibiotics in India, largely due to loose regulations of private drug manufacturing and sales.

www.bu.edu

Ganges contains 'astronomical' levels of antibiotic-resistant bacteria

Scientists in India said they found 'astronomically high' levels of superbugs in water downstream of the sacred town of Gangotri (pictured), which is near the river's source so it should be clean.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I've had a discussion 10 years ago with a phd in microbiology. In his opinion we are fighting a loosing battle. He was explaining, many pharma companies have abandoned or reduced antibiotics research already because of diminished returns. The way we are using and producing them now means, we will run out of usable antibiotics in around 30 years.

The only way to extend this timeline would be to.
1. Keeping hospitals cleaner. Right now they are a breeding ground for multi resistant pathogens. Not just in India but Europe and America too. Sweden is a positive example how to do it right.
2. No more antibiotics in food for life stock. Factory farms are breeding grounds for infections produced by multi resistant pathogens.
3. Clean production of antibiotics. This also includes abandoning the facilities in India.

I have no hope any of these requirements will happen in the next 30 years.

These were his words. So we have 20 years left?



Edit:
This is the documentation that contains most of the information about unclean production and creation of antibiotics resistances. Sadly only in German.

 

[Tavero]

Do you have any evidence that any pharma company dumps antibiotics into rivers? That would be a huge EPA violation.

something specifically about evidence and violations in America:

The case with DuPont has shown that even evidence isn't enough to stop these violations. American lawsuits are extremely expensive, are going on for decades and in the mayority of cases most of the victims and plaintiffs have already died when the verdict is being spoken.
The FDA is fairly useless against big Corp and won't do **** unless a lot of people die in plain sight.

 

[Subsea]

something specifically about evidence and violations in America:

The case with DuPont has shown that even evidence isn't enough to stop these violations. American lawsuits are extremely expensive, are going on for decades and in the mayority of cases most of the victims and plaintiffs have already died when the verdict is being spoken.
The FDA is fairly useless against big Corp and won't do **** unless a lot of people die in plain sight.

@Tavero
Not familiar with Dupont case. Would you link that please? What part of Germany do you live? As a 19 year old Air Force mechanic, I lived near Frankfurt from 1966 -1970 at Rhine Main Air Base.

 

[Shon]

To be fair, a lot of this is over my head but I have some understanding.

Years back, when I was a FFA student, we debated about antibiotic fed animals. Though it was highschool level debate, and our research was lacking, there was one point that stood out.

The point that stood out was against the use of antibiotics because it ends up in their waste. Many farms dispose of animal waste by storing it in manure ponds. The ponds purpose was to allow bacteria to break it down. The "processed" waste is then applied to fields as fertilizer.

By the way, did you know that processed human waste is also used on farm crops? Excuse me, it's called "bio-solids" now. So any antibiotic that goes into the waste system can end up furthering antibiotic resistant strains. From farm to table.

Biosolids as a Source of Antibiotic Resistance Plasmids for Commensal and Pathogenic Bacteria​

Biosolids as a Source of Antibiotic Resistance Plasmids for Commensal and Pathogenic Bacteria

Antibiotic resistance (AR) is a threat to modern medicine, and plasmids are driving the global spread of AR by horizontal gene transfer across microbiomes and environments. Determining the mobile resistome responsible for this spread of AR among environments ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Delicious antibiotic resistant e. coli laden vegetables and salmonella fruits any one?

 

[Bakedpwn]

i mean the fda doesnt know safe or healthy if it hit them in the face....

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Tavero
Not familiar with Dupont case. Would you link that please? What part of Germany do you live? As a 19 year old Air Force mechanic, I lived near Frankfurt from 1966 -1970 at Rhine Main Air Base.

You made a false claim about pharma companies dumping waste antibiotics into rivers, and now try to cover it up by claiming something different.

Anyway, I won’t be participating in the thread any longer. I made my point, and unless folks stick to the issue in the original post, it is likely to be closed for terms of service violations relating to political discussions.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

i mean the fda doesnt know safe or healthy if it hit them in the face....

Omg.

 

[TheSheff]

I wanted to 'like' your post - but some of the comments I disagree with. That said - I agree 1000000% with your comment above.

Lets face it - coral get diseases, and those diseases may be treatable with antibiotics. So - I wouldn't call people that use them 'lazy'. That said - I'm not sure that using a sledgehammer (like broad spectrum cipro) makes sense for anemones/coral until and when someone proves that there are no other medications that can treat these illnesses. I would never support someone using an anti fungal go get rid of algae.

I totally agree with you, brandon was very aggressive in his message lol and he always has been super aggressive in other threads about cipro. The only reason people use cipro is because it is 100% the best at treating BJD. If we could develop another solution that doesn't involve antibiotics than that would solve the whole situation.

 

[MnFish1]

I totally agree with you, brandon was very aggressive in his message lol and he always has been super aggressive in other threads about cipro. The only reason people use cipro is because it is 100% the best at treating BJD. If we could develop another solution that doesn't involve antibiotics than that would solve the whole situation.

My feeling based on the science of antibiotics, a 'dip' probably does very little in the case of an active infection, yet - people seem to be randomly dipping coral in everything and anything. IMHO - to prove that cipro affects BJD, one would have to use Koch's postulates and after that - society should decide whether the potential risk of antibiotic resistance is worth it. I'm not sure that this has been done?

IMHO - if one is going to treat 'a disease', one should know what the agent causing the disease is, and then use the least damaging method to treat it. I know there is some evidence that certain antibiotics can treat coral, and that various scientists are doing research. I don't think that translates (yet, if ever) into home aquarists doing it.

 

[Subsea]

My feeling based on the science of antibiotics, a 'dip' probably does very little in the case of an active infection, yet - people seem to be randomly dipping coral in everything and anything. IMHO - to prove that cipro affects BJD, one would have to use Koch's postulates and after that - society should decide whether the potential risk of antibiotic resistance is worth it. I'm not sure that this has been done?

IMHO - if one is going to treat 'a disease', one should know what the agent causing the disease is, and then use the least damaging method to treat it. I know there is some evidence that certain antibiotics can treat coral, and that various scientists are doing research. I don't think that translates (yet, if ever) into home aquarists doing it.

Kudos to your post

“IMHO - if one is going to treat 'a disease', one should know what the agent causing the disease is, and then use the least damaging method to treat it. I know there is some evidence that certain antibiotics can treat coral, and that various scientists are doing research. I don't think that translates (yet, if ever) into home aquarists doing it.”

Platinum Rule: First, do no harm.

 

[Shon]

A recent one is the cantaloupe recall for salmonella and again a couple days ago, spinach for listeria..

 

[brandon429]

Reefers

Don't get the thread closed. Stay on cipro topic

When a thread gets closed its a bad loss for us, new knowledge and procedure can't evolve when they're closed

Discuss ways not having cipro as an option might harm the hobby

Discuss ways not having it as an option might help the hobby

How did people who never used cipro and never were going to need to arrive there

How did people who feel they must use cipro as they feel fit, to be able to reef, who will stockpile it and find alternate sources or new antibiotics to guess with arrive there

How did the dichotomy develop, that will keep the thread open and valuable