Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[tonymacc]

Stop using vibrant, don't dose trace elements and take it one day at a time. Continue with syphon and cleaning routine.

Have stopped. But what would it do if I dosed it?

 

[Paullawr]

Have stopped. But what would it do if I dosed it?

There are carbon sources in it whichh will help fuel the blighters.

 

[tonymacc]

There are carbon sources in it whichh will help fuel the blighters.

Ah, so with nopox I must have been really fueling them then?

 

[cchomistek]

Alright well I think I most likely have the dreaded Dino's. A little about my system. 230 gallon tank volume. Tank is almost 5 years old. For the first 4.5 years little maintenance was done and tap water was used.

I am now using RO water and am getting the maintenance back to where it should be since Oct.1st. and am wanting to get the tank geared up for a full reef.

Alk- - 8.0
Calc- 410
Mag- 1320
Po4 - .12 red sea
No3 - between .10 and .25 salifert

I have been trying to get things on track. I had a bunch of Cyano on the rocks that I just finished a chemiclean treatment on... Now it looks like the Dino's are taking over where the Cyano was. The sand was rusty before (thought it might have been Cyano but it did not die a off with the chemiclean) but not on the rocks but now the rust is moving to the rocks. I do not have a microscope to identify at this time.

Is there any chance this could be a diatom bloom.

I was doing vodka to lower the nutrients but stopped a few weeks ago. I did have a nitrogen destroyer in place for a bit as well but it is now offline.

I know less is more in this hobby and sadly I have been doing the opposite to get things to where I want them to be after a long stint of neglect.

I do not have much for coral at this time but the big three are rock steady using aquaforest component 123. But this may be fueling the problem as it adds the trace elements.

Here are the pictures of the tank at this time.

Skimmer is back producing skimmate as the chemiclean was just finished a couple days ago. I have a bag of carbon sitting in between my baffles at this time. Nothing seems to bothered at this time but I would like to get rid of the rust colored dynos.

Any advise on where to go from here would be appreciated.

 

[Bret Brinkmann]

It sounds likely you are not sure which it is yet. The first post has a link to a test you can perform to see if it is dinos or diatoms. I did it myself and it's pretty easy. The treatment for those two are different so check before you take action. Let us know what you find out.

 

[mcarroll]

Sorry for the very basic question but as I understand it, the risk of bottom out on NO3 and PO4 is the loss of a diverse bacterial population through starvation and an environment that allows dinoflagellates to thrive.

Good summary!

bacterial microbial – lots more than just bacteria

Dosing of those 2 nutrients using whatever pure source is done to bring back the [microbial] population and the algae that will outcompete[, eat and displace] the dinoflagellates and reverse the situation. Is this a valid premise?

With minor edits, you've pretty much got it.

Also does the premise that a healthy tank is running around 5-10ppm NO3 and ~0.1 PO4 directly fly in the face of ULNS? I was working the tank in that direction using AF products in the hopes of reversing the few SPS that are browning in my tank. Again thank you

Well, that's certainly not the point of this thread. This thread is for getting your tank back from dino's.

So probably not. But I can say this...

• What we're doing is at least a little instructive in showing some folks that nutrients are good and helpful – not bad.
• Before you could really talk about ULNS, first you'd have to define what you think you mean by "ULNS".
• It's not impossible, but I doubt high nutrient levels was an actual problem in the first place for you.

(PM me if you want to get into any of those tangents. I'm game!!)

 

[cchomistek]

I agree I am not certain and will try the coffee filter test. Being that the tank is 5 years old I would think it would be odd to see a diatom bloom. Correct me if I am wrong.

It sounds likely you are not sure which it is yet. The first post has a link to a test you can perform to see if it is dinos or diatoms. I did it myself and it's pretty easy. The treatment for those two are different so check before you take action. Let us know what you find out.

 

[mcarroll]

I agree I am not certain and will try the coffee filter test. Being that the tank is 5 years old I would think it would be odd to see a diatom bloom. Correct me if I am wrong.

Pretty unusual in a tank that old, period.

Let alone an "old" tank that appears to have pleanty of dissolved nutrients available.

I would not jump to any more conclusions until you get a chance to do one of the ID methods.

Definitely post results when you get em!

 

[reeferfoxx]

Let alone an "old" tank that appears to have pleanty of dissolved nutrients available.

I would not jump to any more conclusions until you get a chance to do one of the ID methods.

I agree. ID would benefit most in this circumstance. His po4 is relatively high but no3 is low. This is something I experienced with Coolia. Similar possibility? I would hate to see it again.

 

[cchomistek]

I agree. ID would benefit most in this circumstance. His po4 is relatively high but no3 is low. This is something I experienced with Coolia. Similar possibility? I would hate to see it again.

You think the no3 is low at around .15 to .25. I figured that is considered relatively high??

 

[cchomistek]

You think the no3 is low at around .15 to .25. I figured that is considered relatively high??

Sorry that should of read 15 to 25 ppm NO3 not .15 to .25 ppm.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Sorry that should of read 15 to 25 ppm NO3 not .15 to .25 ppm.

Sorry for the confusion.

Fwew. Honestly, I didn't know how to approach that question lol.

The growth is even more confusing now. What kind of RO system are you using?

 

[cchomistek]

Fwew. Honestly, I didn't know how to approach that question lol.

The growth is even more confusing now. What kind of RO system are you using?

This is the RO filter system I am using. Just got it in early October.

http://www.reefsupplies.ca/online-store/CSPDI-90GPD-w-Manual-Membrane-Flush-by-Spectrapure.html

So a 4 stage unit. The tds reading says 1 on the output. It did say 0 in the beginning but as of about a month or so ago it does say 1. So I guess there is a possibility I am feeding the dinos silicate. And thus I should change the filter cartridges.

Let me know your thoughts.

 

[reeferfoxx]

This is the RO filter system I am using. Just got it in early October.

http://www.reefsupplies.ca/online-store/CSPDI-90GPD-w-Manual-Membrane-Flush-by-Spectrapure.html

So a 4 stage unit. The tds reading says 1 on the output. It did say 0 in the beginning but as of about a month or so ago it does say 1. So I guess there is a possibility I am feeding the dinos silicate. And thus I should change the filter cartridges.

Let me know your thoughts.

First, I would look into test reports from your local water provider. This is something I did and found my cities water supply is using chloramines. Chloramines are difficult to remove. I upped my 4 stage to a 6 stage with dual 1 micron carbon blocks and dual color changing DI filters. In your case, full filter replacement may be warranted unless provided city water supply reports show a positive on chloramines. Then additional filtration would help. Chloramines will kill microbials.

Second, a $10 microscope from amazon and separately purchased glass slides for positive ID on the growth. The glass slides will help with clarity as the $10 scope comes with plastic ones.

Third, though I have faith in your no3 and po4 test results, maybe a youtube video on how to do the tests, just to make sure they are done properly. No disrespect. I found out a long time ago prior to any algae infestations that I had been perform my salifert no3 improperly. I was a new reefer and luckily it wasnt anything detrimental. But the deviation was roughly 10ppm from where it should have tested.

In the off chance this is dinos, aquaforest components will provide additional trace elements where could support dino growth. Usually we suggest limited to no water changes or trace element dosings to to create deficiencies in dino growth where competitors can have the upper hand.

 

[cchomistek]

No disrespect taken. I am pretty confident in the my method for the salifert test kit.

1ml of sample. Add 4 drops of component A and 1 scoop of component B and swirl for 30 seconds and let stand for 3 minutes. I look through the top of the cup as I am not on low range as I am above 10 ppm. If you see anything that is wrong in this method let me know.

I will check into the chloramines. My wife works in a lab so she will be taking a sample to check out under a microscope and I will report back. I will also perform the coffee filter test tomorrow.

 

[reeferfoxx]

1 scoop of component B

Are you leveling the scoop flat?

 

[cchomistek]

Yup scoop leveling flat.

I just looked at the city website and found this.

6. UV Disinfectant of the water with chlorine is a way to protect public health from disease causing organisms that can be found in the river. The risk to public health is reduced further by treatment with ultraviolet (UV) light. Before the water leaves the treatment plant, we combine the chlorine with ammonia to form chloramine. This reduces the formation of disinfection by-products, and ensures a long-lasting "residual" to protect our water against bacteria or other organisms on its journey to your home tap. The chemicals Ammonium and Fluoride (see Chemicals Used D.) are added after the UV Disinfectant stage, before the water is pumped to the storage reservoirs.


So it looks like chloramines are at play.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Yup scoop leveling flat.

I just looked at the city website and found this.

6. UV Disinfectant of the water with chlorine is a way to protect public health from disease causing organisms that can be found in the river. The risk to public health is reduced further by treatment with ultraviolet (UV) light. Before the water leaves the treatment plant, we combine the chlorine with ammonia to form chloramine. This reduces the formation of disinfection by-products, and ensures a long-lasting "residual" to protect our water against bacteria or other organisms on its journey to your home tap. The chemicals Ammonium and Fluoride (see Chemicals Used D.) are added after the UV Disinfectant stage, before the water is pumped to the storage reservoirs.


So it looks like chloramines are at play.

Perfect!

Yeah, chloramines is the popular disinfectant due to its long lasting effect in water systems. Run some carbon in the tank and look into a filter upgrade. So annoying. I just went through this too.

 

[cchomistek]

I do have a media bag with some carbon in the tank as we speak as I just got done the chemiclean treatment for the Cyano which it did wipe out on the rocks anyways. So the chloramines could be fueling the dinos?? Or are these seperate problems.

Also can I daisy chain another media reactor to my RO unit so I don't have to buy a whole new unit or will that not work??

 

[reeferfoxx]

I do have a media bag with some carbon in the tank as we speak as I just got done the chemiclean treatment for the Cyano which it did wipe out on the rocks anyways. So the chloramines could be fueling the dinos?? Or are these seperate problems.

Also can I daisy chain another media reactor to my RO unit so I don't have to buy a whole new unit or will that not work??

No, dinos are fairly resistent. Resilient little ......

Dinos are in most of our systems. Only thriving when conditions are right. Which usually means competitors aren't able to thrive. Competitors like isopods, amiphipods, copepods, nemetodes etc etc.

Not sure what spectrapure provides but BRS sells a separate canister for a sediment block that you can easily attach and then you would replace the canister with the existing sediment blfilter with another carbon block. They also sell a chloramine filter pack for $40. Comes with 2 one micron carbon blocks, sediment filter and di resin. All that for $65 give or take.