Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[xilez]

Still seem to be losing the battle with Ostreo. Ive been a little lack luster with maintaining po4 levels above .1ppm, UV seems to help a little. I will say it looks a little more dusty, and not necessarily stringy and bubbly.

Im starting to get brown stringy algae on the rocks, not really red and clumpy like cyano, almost like a GHA but brownish red. Should I focus on tryin to toothbrush it ofF?

How fast are people seeing results if they maintain they .1 PO4 and 5-10 NO? 1 month, 2 months?

 

[Paullawr]

Still seem to be losing the battle with Ostreo. Ive been a little lack luster with maintaining po4 levels above .1ppm, UV seems to help a little. I will say it looks a little more dusty, and not necessarily stringy and bubbly.

Im starting to get brown stringy algae on the rocks, not really red and clumpy like cyano, almost like a GHA but brownish red. Should I focus on tryin to toothbrush it ofF?

How fast are people seeing results if they maintain they .1 PO4 and 5-10 NO? 1 month, 2 months?

Its best to brush and syphon as much off as and when is possible. Any dead will add toxins in to the water column counterbalincing positive effects from increased nutrients. Ie. Killing off anything growing to out compete.

Think this process is long term so just keep at it.

 

[mdd1986]

Just an update, I tested my water again last night after 2 days of no lights on in the tank. My phosphates are at .12 (hanna phosphorus test) and my nitrates are somewhere between 5-10ppm (salifert test). I have to wait for more of it to grow to get a sample. I'm leaning towards this being diatoms not Dino. Is there any easy way to tell difference without a microscope? The testing method didn't really mention how to find out the difference.

 

[lilchris_357]

Yiu can the bucket test where you suck the algae build into a bucket, stir it to break up the strands, and let it sit. If the strands binds together again then you know it's dinos.

 

[The new fish on the block]

Will a protein skimmer pull out toxins?

 

[tonymacc]

was pointed in this direction by a fellow member, am guilty of letting my po4 bottom out too so I'm also battling the uglies. Never ever thought you could dose phosphate so as of yesterday am dosing 5ml each day (seachem flourish) until I start to get a reading, assuming that's correct for 58 gal. My no3 is dangerously low too but I was dosing nopox and spent a week dosing when I thought I turned it off, so made things worse there.

 

[Javamahn]

I have what I believe are the dreaded ostreopsis. My NO3 is at 2.5 using Salifert and PO4 using Hanna low is at .02 I have already done multiple 72 hour lights out h2o2 ozone with little effect so I purchased stump remover and NeoPhos to start dosing up to the recommendations. GFO is off carbon is out. Can someone confirm id based the picture. Sorry it's best I can do with my phone. And am I doing much of the same steps that folks have done and had success? Also I am dosing 10 ml Microbacter 7 daily hoping to outcompete the Dino's. there is GHA in the picture so with about 8 weeks in I am hoping the damage can be reversed without tear down. Not much snotty bubbles but more of a rust on sand bed and rock tips. Thank you everyone here for this thread

 

[mcarroll]

At one what point can I start lowering the po4, as I feel like it’s a little too high for sps?

Let it fall naturally if anything....but not until these things are long gone. SPS shouldn't care one way or the other, BTW, so no worries.

Still seem to be losing the battle with Ostreo. Ive been a little lack luster with maintaining po4 levels above .1ppm, UV seems to help a little.

Remind me how you ID'd them? If possible you might want to recheck to see what's there currently.

How fast are people seeing results if they maintain they .1 PO4 and 5-10 NO? 1 month, 2 months?

Sometimes it's very quick....use the Ostreopsis search on the first post to dig through some results for it.

Ostreopsis is the one where you do want to let the nutrient levels slowly fall back to "normally low" levels. Don't let them bottom out again though until this is a forgotten memory.

Will a protein skimmer pull out toxins?

Doubtful. Use activated carbon. It's proven to be very good at removing these kinds of toxins in lab studies.

was pointed in this direction by a fellow member, am guilty of letting my po4 bottom out too

What have you been able to do for ID so far? This is important. Can you also post a pic of your bloom?

If you don't start getting some NO3 on your tests in the next day or so from stopping the carbon dosing, you will want to begin nitrate dosing as well.

If your tank does have dino's, then it may initially go through quite a bit of N and P while bacteria break down all the old dead dino cells in the tank.....the old cells are a huge potential carbon source in themselves, so they will keep spurring bacterial blooms (which take nutrients!) until they have been consumed.

Help that along by siphoning and gravel vacuuming out as much detritus off the rocks and out of the sand as you can while you're working one this issue.

 

[Paullawr]

I wouldnt use microbacter it will lower no3 and po4

 

[tonymacc]

Let it fall naturally if anything....but not until these things are long gone. SPS shouldn't care one way or the other, BTW, so no worries.



Remind me how you ID'd them? If possible you might want to recheck to see what's there currently.



Sometimes it's very quick....use the Ostreopsis search on the first post to dig through some results for it.

Ostreopsis is the one where you do want to let the nutrient levels slowly fall back to "normally low" levels. Don't let them bottom out again though until this is a forgotten memory.



Doubtful. Use activated carbon. It's proven to be very good at removing these kinds of toxins in lab studies.



What have you been able to do for ID so far? This is important. Can you also post a pic of your bloom?

If you don't start getting some NO3 on your tests in the next day or so from stopping the carbon dosing, you will want to begin nitrate dosing as well.

If your tank does have dino's, then it may initially go through quite a bit of N and P while bacteria break down all the old dead dino cells in the tank.....the old cells are a huge potential carbon source in themselves, so they will keep spurring bacterial blooms (which take nutrients!) until they have been consumed.

Help that along by siphoning and gravel vacuuming out as much detritus off the rocks and out of the sand as you can while you're working one this issue.

What are people using for adding no3.

 

[ImpossibleKid]

What are people using for adding no3.

Typically Spectracide Stump Remover, KNO3. Seen here on Amazon for fairly cheap. This website has a dosing calculator to figure out how much to use to raise ppm by a specified amount. This information should also be available on the first post of this thread.

 

[mcarroll]

@ImpossibleKid if you don't mind, update your link. Your link won't go away, but I'm also not updating that version of the site anymore.
A Nitrate Dosing Calculator For Better Tank Health (And Better Coral Color!)

This post on Reef2Reef is where the discussion originated, but the post is hard to follow and doesn't really have instructions. Lots of experiences recorded there though!

 

[Javamahn]

I wouldnt use microbacter it will lower no3 and po4

Sorry for the very basic question but as I understand it, the risk of bottom out on NO3 and PO4 is the loss of a diverse bacterial population through starvation and an environment that allows dinoflagellates to thrive. Dosing of those 2 nutrients using whatever pure source is done to bring back the bacterial population and the algae that will outcompete the dinoflagellates and reverse the situation. Is this a valid premise? I will admit to reading about 50% of this thread and then skipping towards the end so it is possible my assumptions are way off. I am however very thankful for all of the folks who continue to monitor this ongoing thread and post responses to the myriad of questions. Also does the premise that a healthy tank is running around 5-10ppm NO3 and ~0.1 PO4 directly fly in the face of ULNS? I was working the tank in that direction using AF products in the hopes of reversing the few SPS that are browning in my tank. Again thank you

 

[mdd1986]

Here are some pics of what I have in my tank. I don't really have enough of it to test in a bucket. My toy scope will be here Monday so hopefully i can figure it out. In the second picture you can see that its starting to become more stringy like hair algae (you can see it if you look closely at the pic) Let me know what you guys think.

 

[sfin52]

It is very possible that Dino killed off the bio diversity. As the Dino die you may have to add the biodiversity back in the tank. A new batch of sand, new lr, water change from a friends tank or some other tank, adding pods.

If you haven’t yet read end game I thinks that’s what’s called on the first page. You’ll get algea growth. The link talks about how to deal with it.


Don’t stop running granulated activate carbon. That will help mitigate Dino toxins


Hope it helps.

 

[taricha]

According taricha they dont eat.

Yeah, thanks for bringing up an opportunity to correct this. I'd said there's no evidence our photosynthetic species eat anything. Not true.
Since then I've seen amphidinium dinos live happily and actively in the dark for 14 days, and also seen them happy and active for that length of time after having their chloroplasts chemically destroyed. Strong evidence they eat stuff.

Our species of dinos don't eat whole cells of phyto, diatoms, ciliates, pods etc. too many good studies with fancy scopes and techniques find no consumed cells.
But they DO eat bacteria, and they have ways of uptaking big organic molecules in a way that algae doesn't normally do well. (Why we say to dose, not just overfeed)
Like @mcarroll said, adding phyto usually fuels an existing bloom. Likely by the phyto and the pods it feeds becoming trapped in toxic mucus where it dies and is broken down by bacteria that feed the dinos directly or indirectly.

Still seem to be losing the battle with Ostreo. Ive been a little lack luster with maintaining po4 levels above .1ppm, UV seems to help a little. I will say it looks a little more dusty, and not necessarily stringy and bubbly.

A change in appearance like that often means you are knocking the dominant species out, and something else is filling in.

Sorry for the very basic question but as I understand it, the risk of bottom out on NO3 and PO4 is the loss of a diverse bacterial population through starvation and an environment that allows dinoflagellates to thrive. Dosing of those 2 nutrients using whatever pure source is done to bring back the bacterial population and the algae that will outcompete the dinoflagellates and reverse the situation. Is this a valid premise? I will admit to reading about 50% of this thread and then skipping towards the end so it is possible my assumptions are way off. I am however very thankful for all of the folks who continue to monitor this ongoing thread and post responses to the myriad of questions. Also does the premise that a healthy tank is running around 5-10ppm NO3 and ~0.1 PO4 directly fly in the face of ULNS? I was working the tank in that direction using AF products in the hopes of reversing the few SPS that are browning in my tank. Again thank you

I wouldn't state the premise in terms of bacteria specifically (some help dinos, some hurt them), but yeah starvation and loss of bottom-up biodiversity is a situation dinos do well in. So remove the P and N starvation pressures, encourage healthy biodiversity, remove toxins and Dino cells and find a new healthy balance.

Here are some pics of what I have in my tank. I don't really have enough of it to test in a bucket. My toy scope will be here Monday so hopefully i can figure it out. In the second picture you can see that its starting to become more stringy like hair algae (you can see it if you look closely at the pic) Let me know what you guys think.

It's more likely dinos than anything else, but a scope can confirm 100%

 

[taricha]

Back in Sept/October sometime after talking to Sanjay Joshi and Julian Sprung I decided to follow their advice and just left the tank without doing too much to eradicate this pest. Sanjay was of the opinion that the Dinoflagallites would eventually " burn" themselves out.
Well that seems to be happening.I bumped up the Phosphates and Nitrates and am still feeding heavy,stopped doing water changes and every now and again stir up the sand bed with a turkey baster. Corals and fish are doing really well. I plan on not doing any water changes for at least another month or so and see what happens.

Thanks for this report - sounds like given long enough they can be trace element depleted even without a lot of algae competitors, over several months. Like Gregg said, this is prorocentrum.
When you say you did no water changes, I assume you still provide Ca/Alk/Mg?

 

[Paullawr]

Yeah, thanks for bringing up an opportunity to correct this. I'd said there's no evidence our photosynthetic species eat anything. Not true.
Since then I've seen amphidinium dinos live happily and actively in the dark for 14 days, and also seen them happy and active for that length of time after having their chloroplasts chemically destroyed. Strong evidence they eat stuff.

Our species of dinos don't eat whole cells of phyto, diatoms, ciliates, pods etc. too many good studies with fancy scopes and techniques find no consumed cells.
But they DO eat bacteria, and they have ways of uptaking big organic molecules in a way that algae doesn't normally do well. (Why we say to dose, not just overfeed)
Like @mcarroll said, adding phyto usually fuels an existing bloom. Likely by the phyto and the pods it feeds becoming trapped in toxic mucus where it dies and is broken down by bacteria that feed the dinos directly or indirectly.


A change in appearance like that often means you are knocking the dominant species out, and something else is filling in.


I wouldn't state the premise in terms of bacteria specifically (some help dinos, some hurt them), but yeah starvation and loss of bottom-up biodiversity is a situation dinos do well in. So remove the P and N starvation pressures, encourage healthy biodiversity, remove toxins and Dino cells and find a new healthy balance.


It's more likely dinos than anything else, but a scope can confirm 100%

You're welcome

 

[tonymacc]

Well I started dosing flourish phosphorus on Thursday @ 5ml per day and today is the first day I have a reading, 0.01 so will continue to dose daily until .1 is reached. Also as my no3 was very low, I started dosing that @ 12ml daily from Saturday split into 2 x 6ml doses am and pm, it was showing 1ppm before starting and today I have about 4-8ppm, so both are slowly on the climb. I would expect tomorrows check to be closer to the 10ppm no3 I'm after and po4 a bit up too. There doesn't seem to be as much 'dust' on the frags today.

 

[Paullawr]

Well I started dosing flourish phosphorus on Thursday @ 5ml per day and today is the first day I have a reading, 0.01 so will continue to dose daily until .1 is reached. Also as my no3 was very low, I started dosing that @ 12ml daily from Saturday split into 2 x 6ml doses am and pm, it was showing 1ppm before starting and today I have about 4-8ppm, so both are slowly on the climb. I would expect tomorrows check to be closer to the 10ppm no3 I'm after and po4 a bit up too. There doesn't seem to be as much 'dust' on the frags today.

Stop using vibrant, don't dose trace elements and take it one day at a time. Continue with syphon and cleaning routine.