Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Paullawr]

Yep, they form strains on the sand, some of the rocks have some brown dust coating on them but the main problem is my sand.

Yeah that's confirmed my ID.

 

[Paullawr]

Now depends on how you want to tackle them.

I'm hated on here as I can't be arsed with the fooling around with these things. However each to their own.

Firstly lets weigh up your system. I could be wrong but doesn't look too heavily stocked. What do you have in their fish and coral wise.

What's water prams.
Any temperature changes recently.
Added any elements?

 

[chefjpaul]

I think we need one of these:
Couple mods for salt and good to go.

https://www.freshwatersystems.com/p...MIv5Xuyd2v2AIVEYGzCh1hFgSREAQYAyABEgLI2vD_BwE

 

[matic]

Now depends on how you want to tackle them.

I'm hated on here as I can't be arsed with the fooling around with these things. However each to their own.

Firstly lets weigh up your system. I could be wrong but doesn't look too heavily stocked. What do you have in their fish and coral wise.

What's water prams.
Any temperature changes recently.
Added any elements?

2 clowns, 1 picasso, 1 yellow tang and 3 goby’s. Corals are all death except 2 patches of gps. Temp is stable at 25 degrees, stopped dosing alk, calc and mag 3 months ago. Phosphate @0.03 and nitrate @ 10 ppm. Red sea reefer 450 with around 70 pound of rock.

I’ve started dosing zeobak, biodigest and vibrant mixed with coralsnow every night, low lighting schedule. Its now not as bad as the photo but I think when I ramp up my lights the bloom wil be back.

 

[sfin52]

I used to have tons of mysid. A crab ate them all before I could catch it. I'm going to look for live mysid to add to the tank too. Thanks for the advice everyone. I will reduce lighting and current also. If I can get them into the water column, then I will start using a sick filter and UV unit too.

You can use a 10 micron sock to do water changes. Siphon water through the sock and put the water back in the tank.

 

[Sycoticrealm]

I used to have tons of mysid. A crab ate them all before I could catch it. I'm going to look for live mysid to add to the tank too. Thanks for the advice everyone. I will reduce lighting and current also. If I can get them into the water column, then I will start using a sick filter and UV unit too.

UV sterilization will kill any pod culture from reproducing.
Or you'll have a very small population.
It all depends tbh if you have fish that eat them or anything that does plus a UV survival and reproduction gonna be hard.
I let mine establish in a 5g bucket with chaeto first about 3 months.
Then another 6 months in the refuge and the display.
I add them to both so if any do get eaten i have a backup in the refuge reproducing and slowly moving up top as the population expanses.

 

[taricha]

Pods eat dinoflagellates.
We have to simulate the environment much as possible and adding nature's natural resource has helped me maintain my tanks.
Just my opinion I may be off subject but i don't have time to read or feel like reading 36 pages of posts lol.

I notice certain pods hanging out in dino infected areas or algae infested areas.
Is this solely for cover or are they eating it?
If so i don't see why they wouldn't consume some dinoflagellates.
The problem may be they don't seek them out solely and like pretty much everything they have a varied diet.
So you wouldn't see a huge difference from them until numbers are huge and other foods was removed.
I have a QT that sandless and just macro algae and pods.
My fish have had really high survival rates while QT in this system.
The babies of these mysis shrimp i suspect eat anything and may be consuming any bad dinoflagellates.
I also have a type of copepod that loves living in dinoflagellates infected areas.

To those who want to catch up on what has been said about copepods (not great) vs dinos and various other micro-grazers...
check these:
Isopods and amphipods better than copepods
Unsung dino grazer hero - ciliates
Weird Tanaid shrimp loves eating amphidinium dinos.
Live phyto + copepods very ineffective vs toxic dinos.

So you're saying dinoflagellates kill pods? Because it a main food source for most pods.
Problem would be the unspeakable number of different species of dinoflagellates.
So to control one is impossible. I'm get a scope in the future and remove the tiny baby mysis and test them against dinoflagellates that i can get a hold of.

Mysis are an interesting idea. "Diet of Mysis diluviana reveals seasonal patterns of omnivory and consumption of invasive species in offshore Lake Michigan" shows these guys eating literally anything moving or not that they can fit in their mouths - dinos, diatoms, cyano, chrysophytes.
almost all of mysids were found having eaten diatoms, and dinos too during their bloom.
This paper is more glum "Transfer of Paralytic Shellfish Toxins via Marine Food Chains: A Simulated Experiment" - it puts mysids up against toxic dinos directly, and indirectly through eating brine shrimp that ate dinos. They accumulate toxins, and artemia could handle more. (other papers elsewhere show artemia themselves can't handle more than a few cells of ostreopsis). This is not unique. Nothing handles lots of toxic dinos well. Hence a varied bottom-up biodiversity is needed to support grazers that can munch an occasional toxic dino.
How to protect a breeding population of mysis in a tank that the majority of fish would find irresistable? I'd be interested if anyone can point to a thread on this.

UV sterilization will kill any pod culture from reproducing.
Or you'll have a very small population.
It all depends tbh if you have fish that eat them or anything that does plus a UV survival and reproduction gonna be hard.

amphipods and isopods are straight benthic and unaffected by UV. Some copepods may also have life cycle that prefer benthic habit. I've pulled samples of detritus that were thick with copepod nauplii.
UV is one of the most effective tools for direct cell killing of dinos that go into the water at night (every strain except Large Cell Amphidinium).

I read that reducing nitrate lowers the level toxin. Problem is that goes against everything in this thread.

Yeah. Took a while to figure it out. The issue is published lit and hobbyist experience on Low N levels refer to completely different scales of N. The question is "low N levels" relative to what?
In a tank "low N levels" refer to levels where algae growth is slow and in those settings Dino toxins are dominating.
In a lab "low N levels" often refer to near complete N depletion to the point that the Dinos can't physically make toxins.
hafta crunch numbers on the papers reporting fractions of a micromole of N and convert to ppm Nitrate to see that they are talking about stupid low levels of N that could never exist in a tank.

 

[Sycoticrealm]

To those who want to catch up on what has been said about copepods (not great) vs dinos and various other micro-grazers...
check these:
Isopods and amphipods better than copepods
Unsung dino grazer hero - ciliates
Weird Tanaid shrimp loves eating amphidinium dinos.
Live phyto + copepods very ineffective vs toxic dinos.




Mysis are an interesting idea. "Diet of Mysis diluviana reveals seasonal patterns of omnivory and consumption of invasive species in offshore Lake Michigan" shows these guys eating literally anything moving or not that they can fit in their mouths - dinos, diatoms, cyano, chrysophytes.
almost all of mysids were found having eaten diatoms, and dinos too during their bloom.
This paper is more glum "Transfer of Paralytic Shellfish Toxins via Marine Food Chains: A Simulated Experiment" - it puts mysids up against toxic dinos directly, and indirectly through eating brine shrimp that ate dinos. They accumulate toxins, and artemia could handle more. (other papers elsewhere show artemia themselves can't handle more than a few cells of ostreopsis). This is not unique. Nothing handles lots of toxic dinos well. Hence a varied bottom-up biodiversity is needed to support grazers that can munch an occasional toxic dino.
How to protect a breeding population of mysis in a tank that the majority of fish would find irresistable? I'd be interested if anyone can point to a thread on this.



amphipods and isopods are straight benthic and unaffected by UV. Some copepods may also have life cycle that prefer benthic habit. I've pulled samples of detritus that were thick with copepod nauplii.
UV is one of the most effective tools for direct cell killing of dinos that go into the water at night (every strain except Large Cell Amphidinium).


Yeah. Took a while to figure it out. The issue is published lit and hobbyist experience on Low N levels refer to completely different scales of N. The question is "low N levels" relative to what?
In a tank "low N levels" refer to levels where algae growth is slow and in those settings Dino toxins are dominating.
In a lab "low N levels" often refer to near complete N depletion to the point that the Dinos can't physically make toxins.
hafta crunch numbers on the papers reporting fractions of a micromole of N and convert to ppm Nitrate to see that they are talking about stupid low levels of N that could never exist in a tank.

I have my own notes since 2012 where i have claimed the mysida shrimp was eating dinoflagellates.
I can't say which but i find it funny i was nuts then now people 5 years later are saying they could make an impact.

When I've ran a UV it killed off my mysida shrimp population.
Copepods isopods amphipods were dewelling also.
I maybe my flow was not fast enough or maybe it was the algae and dinos was reduced so much and that was their food supply which dwelled them down.

 

[reeferfoxx]

How to protect a breeding population of mysis in a tank that the majority of fish would find irresistable? I'd be interested if anyone can point to a thread on this.

+1

 

[taricha]

I have my own notes since 2012 where i have claimed the mysida shrimp was eating dinoflagellates.


When I've ran a UV it killed off my mysida shrimp population.
Copepods isopods amphipods were dewelling also.
I maybe my flow was not fast enough or maybe it was the algae and dinos was reduced so much and that was their food supply which dwelled them down.

Got microscope pics or ID of the Dino?

Not familiar with mysis life cycle, But amphipods absolutely have no planktonic stage and wouldn't be touched by UV.
I think reduction of food seems more likely.

 

[Sycoticrealm]

Got microscope pics or ID of the Dino?

Not familiar with mysis life cycle, But amphipods absolutely have no planktonic stage and wouldn't be touched by UV.
I think reduction of food seems more likely.

Unfortunately no scope so i cannot ID.
Mysida not mysis i dont even know if there is a saltwater version of mysis i thought they were all freshwater.
I posted a video of them. I could be completely wrong and they're not mysida shrimp at all but after using the best magnifying lens i had that was my best find.
But i watched them consume dinoflagellates.

 

[reeferfoxx]

FWIW and back to the minor subject of salt mixes. I've noticed in my 30g, that going a month without a water change shows negative effects on water quality, especially shown in fish and coral. When doing water changes I've noticed a positive change in water quality for fish an coral, obviously. However, with my Fritz RPM I see other side effects from doing water changes. I don't have ICP tests to confirm but I notice an increase in cyano and a presumed dinos with considerable po4 decrease. Also, I notice that isopods, copepods, and other organisms don't come out at night after doing water changes. Yes, I'm watching my tank like a hawk.

Some observations of my tank have shown that limited water changes reduces dinos and cyano with an increase of micro organisms.
Doing monthly 5g or 17% water change doesn't effect much.
Doing bi-weekly 17% water change shows an increase of cyano.
Doing weekly 17% water change shows increase of cyano, dino, and reduction of pods.

There are two factors here that are impacting progression of my tank. Either my salt mix is bad. Or my 17% changes are seriously impacting nutrients on the tank.

I'm leaning more towards the bad salt mix and here is why.
Doing some searches on Fritz RPM with positive and negative reviews, one thing that has stood out to me is that a lot of folks have experienced high boron levels. We've all seen salt mix reviews with inconsistent results so I'm not suggesting all Fritz salt batches are bad but I'm considering that mine might be.

Here is R2R discussion about Fritz and high boron. Randy chimed in about toxicity levels and it's impact on inverts and isopods.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fritz-salt-and-boron-levels.347004/

RHF's article on boron
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/12/chemistry

Another discussion about Fritz RPM with Triton results showing toxic levels of Boron.
http://www.marsh-reef.org/marine-an...on/54463-switching-over-fritz-pro-salt-3.html
ICP test
https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/aquarium/auswertung-b/icp-oes/41217/

I think my case, it's a valid consideration. I also think I'll be switching salt mixes just to be on the safe side. This post isn't to suggest that my salt mix gave me dinos. It's the suggestion that it posses a threat to establishing a diverse environment for any dino competitors.

 

[Paullawr]

FWIW and back to the minor subject of salt mixes. I've noticed in my 30g, that going a month without a water change shows negative effects on water quality, especially shown in fish and coral. When doing water changes I've noticed a positive change in water quality for fish an coral, obviously. However, with my Fritz RPM I see other side effects from doing water changes. I don't have ICP tests to confirm but I notice an increase in cyano and a presumed dinos with considerable po4 decrease. Also, I notice that isopods, copepods, and other organisms don't come out at night after doing water changes. Yes, I'm watching my tank like a hawk.

Some observations of my tank have shown that limited water changes reduces dinos and cyano with an increase of micro organisms.
Doing monthly 5g or 17% water change doesn't effect much.
Doing bi-weekly 17% water change shows an increase of cyano.
Doing weekly 17% water change shows increase of cyano, dino, and reduction of pods.

There are two factors here that are impacting progression of my tank. Either my salt mix is bad. Or my 17% changes are seriously impacting nutrients on the tank.

I'm leaning more towards the bad salt mix and here is why.
Doing some searches on Fritz RPM with positive and negative reviews, one thing that has stood out to me is that a lot of folks have experienced high boron levels. We've all seen salt mix reviews with inconsistent results so I'm not suggesting all Fritz salt batches are bad but I'm considering that mine might be.

Here is R2R discussion about Fritz and high boron. Randy chimed in about toxicity levels and it's impact on inverts and isopods.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fritz-salt-and-boron-levels.347004/

RHF's article on boron
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/12/chemistry

Another discussion about Fritz RPM with Triton results showing toxic levels of Boron.
http://www.marsh-reef.org/marine-an...on/54463-switching-over-fritz-pro-salt-3.html
ICP test
https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/aquarium/auswertung-b/icp-oes/41217/

I think my case, it's a valid consideration. I also think I'll be switching salt mixes just to be on the safe side. This post isn't to suggest that my salt mix gave me dinos. It's the suggestion that it posses a threat to establishing a diverse environment for any dino competitors.

Certainly from a dinoflagellate perspective larger water changes mimic swells in the ocean following Tropical storms. This is always the prelude to a bloom. As nutrients are released from the turbulent water it also brings in warmer water which mixes.
Two main factors I've witnessed Dino blooms in three tanks were, large water change and temperature increase.
I think a 5% is arguably the better as it does reduce stress, for all organisms. Again even zooplankton will stress with larger changes of water.

Still if you are still going with the heavy metal factor, maybe it's worth a sample to Triton for analysis, that's presuming the RO is good to begin with.

 

[Paullawr]

Random question now....
Has anyone checked the O2 saturation during a bloom. Be interesting to see what it is and whether their are any adverse effects with increasing O2 or even Co2.

 

[Paullawr]

Unfortunately no scope so i cannot ID.
Mysida not mysis i dont even know if there is a saltwater version of mysis i thought they were all freshwater.
I posted a video of them. I could be completely wrong and they're not mysida shrimp at all but after using the best magnifying lens i had that was my best find.
But i watched them consume dinoflagellates.

LOL start selling them on ebay. You would clean up if they did.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Certainly from a dinoflagellate perspective larger water changes mimic swells in the ocean following Tropical storms. This is always the prelude to a bloom. As nutrients are released from the turbulent water it also brings in warmer water which mixes.
Two main factors I've witnessed Dino blooms in three tanks were, large water change and temperature increase.
I think a 5% is arguably the better as it does reduce stress, for all organisms. Again even zooplankton will stress with larger changes of water.

Still if you are still going with the heavy metal factor, maybe it's worth a sample to Triton for analysis, that's presuming the RO is good to begin with.

In nano tank perspective, 17% is reasonable. Most folks with 20g or less perform 50%-100% due to increased DOCs, nutrients, and toxins. On my old 20g, I always performed a weekly 5g wc without issue. If anything it wasn't enough even with a rated 65g protein skimmer.

 

[Paullawr]

Philosophically, tsav87 this argument makes total sense, and it really ought to work. But in practice, in my systems and others, it just doesn't. In fact, live phyto seems to have the opposite effect. In fact adding live phyto caused dinos to resurge in my tank better than adding dinos themselves.

To repeat, I've poured straight dinos from an infected system into my display with healthy nutrients and diversity, and the dinos couldn't get a foothold.
But pouring in large amounts of live phyto (nanno and t-iso) and daily infusions of cultured copepods/rotifers caused amphidinium dinos to bloom.
Why? My best guess is that the tank had protective biodiversity, but adding overwhelming amounts of phyto/pods actually pushed other things out, and left less diversity, majority of my zooplankton now being copepods that don't eat dinos. (Growing pods that eat 5 micron phyto cells are apparently poorly equipped to eat 50 micron Dino cells)

In another tank with an already existing ostreopsis bloom, feeding live phyto grew more dinos and more copepods, but then the copepods succumbed to the dinos and then the tank grew way more dinos.

Do our dinos feed off phyto directly? Probably not. But they don't have to. They can capture phyto and pods in mucus and benefit from the organics released as they die.

So, counter-intuitive to the point of being maddening. When battling dinos, biodiversity is awesome, but the evidence I've seen says do NOT dose live phyto.

I read that amphidium spear its prey. Nice!

Completely agree in phytoplankton I've seen it increase Dino populations.

 

[Sycoticrealm]

LOL start selling them on ebay. You would clean up if they did.

I'm get a scope in the future and really get down on my theory i couldn't just sell them without being 100%.
There so many factors but i do honestly believe they contribute to a reduction of dinoflagellates.

 

[Paullawr]

In nano tank perspective, 17% is reasonable. Most folks with 20g or less perform 50%-100% due to increased DOCs, nutrients, and toxins. On my old 20g, I always performed a weekly 5g wc without issue. If anything it wasn't enough even with a rated 65g protein skimmer.

I used to follow the whole 20-50% water change and was never able to keep sps alive.
Changing to 5% for me revolved that. Plenty of ways these days to reduce organics outside of water changes, which I've always found the least effective.

 

[Paullawr]

I'm get a scope in the future and really get down on my theory i couldn't just sell them without being 100%.
There so many factors but i do honestly believe they contribute to a reduction of dinoflagellates.

They probably did, but don't count your blessings just yet. These things have a habit of turning the tank south very quickly. Just takes one surviving cell amongst many millions.....