Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[ScottB]

I'm currently battling prorocentrum in my sandbed, dosing silicates, bacteria, and phyto, and finally getting some diatoms!

Now the concern is I have an outbreak on my rockwork with coolia...

Moving forward what should I treat first? I do have a UV but I'm concerned that using it may disrupt my diatom population but I also want to tackle the coolia.. any advice how to proceed is much appreciated!

I would suggest a properly sized UV. You could even go the next step and do a blackout for 24-36 hours to get the dinos into the water better. Proro often won't swim without a blackout. If you hadn't already come across this, it is worth a read IMO. (But I wrote it so...)

A Dinoflagellate Treatment Guide

As the title suggests, this is intended as a short guide on what to do when you suspect dinoflagellates are trying to overtake your system. It is an attempt to boil down the protocols discussed across 11,000 posts in this "Are you Tired" thread...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[bishoptf]

Couple of questions one for the xperts like @taricha and @ScottB and others. I know we talked about occurrence now vs the olden/golden days and from what I remember @taricha found that that was more of a misnomer that the rate of occurrence appears to be about the same now vs them but I guess my question is I believe we know a lot more now than we did see @ScottB guide etc but we still do not have the final solution to the puzzle. We know that UV works for some and some other techniques but the silver bullet still eludes us as to why it happens (lack of nutrients and other things) and what really are the building blocks to keep them at bay and out compete them. I know everyone talks about adding or having diversity but I think its much more to that, I think at some point we will find certain things (certain bacteria strains etc) out compete them and keep them at bay. Just not sure how we are going to take that next step in understanding and finding real solutions to 1) keep them from happening in the first place and 2) if they do show up in numbers, workable solutions that are easily deployed and work. Thanks for listening just rambling...

My second question is has anyone ever used something like this - Amazon product

they make them in different sizes, now understandable they CANNOT BE USED WHERE LIVING THINGS ARE PRESENT, but I have an AIO and was thinking about adding 2 of the 3w versions in one of the back AIO filter sections. Since they are unshielded they will kill anything in direct contact with the light so you have to put it somewhere that nothing is present and somewhere that you cannot have direct sight to. I have a couple of sections and they are cheap enough that I am going to try and see if they have any impact to the Ostreo that I am seeing in my new tank. Just was wondering if anyone has used one etc...

 

[reefing noob]

@taricha using the coffee filter test if all the brown material stays in the filter paper and the water remains clear of any sort of brown matter clumping together for hours in light is this more likely cyano?

 

[bishoptf]

@taricha using the coffee filter test if all the brown material stays in the filter paper and the water remains clear of any sort of brown matter clumping together for hours in light is this more likely cyano?

Most likely its something else besides dino's but really to be sure getting a inexpensive microscope will show you what it is for sure, thats really the only positive way to verify.

 

[JPCommenter]

Hi, I'm currently dealing with a dino issue it seems. I was forwarded to this thread by another post that I saw when trying to figure out my problem. I'm a newbie in the saltwater hobby, and what started out as an algae issue seems to have evolved into a dino issue. 8 month old tank, 1 toadstool, 1 duncan (closed up for ~2 months), 2 clowns, 1 tailspot. Nitrates and Phos have been 0 for a couple months, so I've tried using reef roids and Reef Energy AB+ a couple times a week, but still no movement in Nitrate or Phos.

Attached are photos and a video of a sample from the sandbed. Unfortunately the microscope video has poor resolution, but it seems to be some form of dinos. Can I please have some guidance on next steps? I read through the treatment guide, but I dont know if I'm dealing with small cell or large cell amphidinium or something else. The stuff on the rocks stays when the lights are off at night, but almost everything on the sandbed goes away. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[bishoptf]

Hi, I'm currently dealing with a dino issue it seems. I was forwarded to this thread by another post that I saw when trying to figure out my problem. I'm a newbie in the saltwater hobby, and what started out as an algae issue seems to have evolved into a dino issue. 8 month old tank, 1 toadstool, 1 duncan (closed up for ~2 months), 2 clowns, 1 tailspot. Nitrates and Phos have been 0 for a couple months, so I've tried using reef roids and Reef Energy AB+ a couple times a week, but still no movement in Nitrate or Phos.

Attached are photos and a video of a sample from the sandbed. Unfortunately the microscope video has poor resolution, but it seems to be some form of dinos. Can I please have some guidance on next steps? I read through the treatment guide, but I dont know if I'm dealing with small cell or large cell amphidinium or something else. The stuff on the rocks stays when the lights are off at night, but almost everything on the sandbed goes away. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

See @ScottB treatment guide listed above - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/d...d-of-battling-altogether.293318/post-11723151

To be effective you really need to get a microscope so you can identify which type that you have and then follow the treatment guide for suggestions on how to address. For any version you need to get your Nitrate and Phosphate to be above zero. Nitrate you should be 5-10ppm and phosphate you should target close to .1 and then depending on which type(s) you have you go from there to address them, no real quick fix, but you can win and beat them but it just takes time.

 

[ScottB]

Couple of questions one for the xperts like @taricha and @ScottB and others. I know we talked about occurrence now vs the olden/golden days and from what I remember @taricha found that that was more of a misnomer that the rate of occurrence appears to be about the same now vs them but I guess my question is I believe we know a lot more now than we did see @ScottB guide etc but we still do not have the final solution to the puzzle. We know that UV works for some and some other techniques but the silver bullet still eludes us as to why it happens (lack of nutrients and other things) and what really are the building blocks to keep them at bay and out compete them. I know everyone talks about adding or having diversity but I think its much more to that, I think at some point we will find certain things (certain bacteria strains etc) out compete them and keep them at bay. Just not sure how we are going to take that next step in understanding and finding real solutions to 1) keep them from happening in the first place and 2) if they do show up in numbers, workable solutions that are easily deployed and work. Thanks for listening just rambling...

My second question is has anyone ever used something like this - Amazon product

they make them in different sizes, now understandable they CANNOT BE USED WHERE LIVING THINGS ARE PRESENT, but I have an AIO and was thinking about adding 2 of the 3w versions in one of the back AIO filter sections. Since they are unshielded they will kill anything in direct contact with the light so you have to put it somewhere that nothing is present and somewhere that you cannot have direct sight to. I have a couple of sections and they are cheap enough that I am going to try and see if they have any impact to the Ostreo that I am seeing in my new tank. Just was wondering if anyone has used one etc...

Dinos are just another surface competitor in our systems. They compete with hundreds of different algae, bacteria and other microfauna. A stable biome should be able to keep them all in some sense of balance with each other, but with some many different inputs into a small closed system it gets pretty noisy in there, and the balance of power is so unpredictable. That is my ramble, lol.

Unfamiliar with that UV unit, but certainly cheap enough to experiment with.

 

[ScottB]

Hi, I'm currently dealing with a dino issue it seems. I was forwarded to this thread by another post that I saw when trying to figure out my problem. I'm a newbie in the saltwater hobby, and what started out as an algae issue seems to have evolved into a dino issue. 8 month old tank, 1 toadstool, 1 duncan (closed up for ~2 months), 2 clowns, 1 tailspot. Nitrates and Phos have been 0 for a couple months, so I've tried using reef roids and Reef Energy AB+ a couple times a week, but still no movement in Nitrate or Phos.

Attached are photos and a video of a sample from the sandbed. Unfortunately the microscope video has poor resolution, but it seems to be some form of dinos. Can I please have some guidance on next steps? I read through the treatment guide, but I dont know if I'm dealing with small cell or large cell amphidinium or something else. The stuff on the rocks stays when the lights are off at night, but almost everything on the sandbed goes away. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Based in the videos in this Dino ID Guide, I am going to suggest both Large Cell Amphids (the large stationary cell) and Small Cell amphids (the small, nimble ones).

As the treatment guide suggests, I'd recommend dosing PO4 and NO3. The dinos are likely happy to be consuming the Reefroids.

 

[JPCommenter]

Based in the videos in this Dino ID Guide, I am going to suggest both Large Cell Amphids (the large stationary cell) and Small Cell amphids (the small, nimble ones).

As the treatment guide suggests, I'd recommend dosing PO4 and NO3. The dinos are likely happy to be consuming the Reefroids.

That's what I thought as well, I have NeoPhos and NeoNitro currently in transit. Thanks for your input!

 

[reefing noob]

@t[ATTACH type="full"]3317637[/ATTACH]aricha using the coffee filter test if all the brown material stays in the filter paper and the water remains clear of any sort of brown matter clumping together for hours in light is this more likely cyano?

I am going to send this microscope back because the camera that came with it is not working on any of my PCs or mac's. Coolia and cyano? Its only on the sand there was no movement though, i did two slides mostly saw the stringy looking stuff on both but i did find the pictured round looking cell on both slides i have the sample of water i made the slides from sitting out under light tonight.

I would describe it very round and no motion

 

[reefing noob]

Managed to grab a better sample from the water sitting out all night under a light. Really hard to get a picture through my phone but I am still leaning towards coolia.

 

[bishoptf]

Managed to grab a better sample from the water sitting out all night under a light. Really hard to get a picture through my phone but I am still leaning towards coolia.

I'll let one of the other xperts confirm but thats what it looks like to me also...

 

[bishoptf]

Dinos are just another surface competitor in our systems. They compete with hundreds of different algae, bacteria and other microfauna. A stable biome should be able to keep them all in some sense of balance with each other, but with some many different inputs into a small closed system it gets pretty noisy in there, and the balance of power is so unpredictable. That is my ramble, lol.

Unfamiliar with that UV unit, but certainly cheap enough to experiment with.

Yeah I get that but I also think there is so much we do not fully understand, I had a new tank that I am trying to get in compliance and I never had low nutrients but I still got dino's showing up. I agree that running nitrate and phosphate to 0 causes more instances along with chemiclean etc but it's more than just low nutrients. My nitrate has been over 10 and never bottomed out, and my phosphate is way higher than I would like, out of range on my Hanna ULR, so maybe super high phosphate and low are contributing factors?

I know there are no exact answers but just truly intrigued at how and when they show up. There is something about tanks that once they get rid of them or tanks that never have them what is the difference, we say bio diversity but thats an awful big generic term, would love to be able to crack this nut since it really does make it hard on folks...

 

[reefing noob]

I'll let one of the other xperts confirm but thats what it looks like to me also...

I have added UV 9watt green killing machine, have had good results with it in freshwater before i did inline UV on my last fw build. This a 32 gallon biocube so its right at the 1watt per 3 gallon rule been disturbing the sand with a turkey baster before bed and once during the day. Going on 48 hours with UV its looking a lot better was never really bad to begin with tank is around 18 months old but I am overly sensitive to any issues right now because over the last 2 months it went from just existing with the fish in it to me wanting to really be able to keep corals so

ai prime 16
kraken lid
nero 3 x2
sicce 1.5 return
aquamaxx 1.5 HOB skimmer
xp aqua duetto ATO

after the dinos i need to deal with some bubble algae, tried an emerald crab but my murderous tiger pistol shrimp killed him after 2 weeks, or maybe the crab went into his den. may try another emerald in a week or so.

 

[bishoptf]

I have added UV 9watt green killing machine, have had good results with it in freshwater before i did inline UV on my last fw build. This a 32 gallon biocube so its right at the 1watt per 3 gallon rule been disturbing the sand with a turkey baster before bed and once during the day. Going on 48 hours with UV its looking a lot better was never really bad to begin with tank is around 18 months old but I am overly sensitive to any issues right now because over the last 2 months it went from just existing with the fish in it to me wanting to really be able to keep corals so

ai prime 16
kraken lid
nero 3 x2
sicce 1.5 return
aquamaxx 1.5 HOB skimmer
xp aqua duetto ATO

after the dinos i need to deal with some bubble algae, tried an emerald crab but my murderous tiger pistol shrimp killed him after 2 weeks, or maybe the crab went into his den. may try another emerald in a week or so.

Might want to do some searching, I've used the GKM since they are cheap but what you will find is that the pumps really are not made for salt water and the impeller shafts tend to rust. Maybe something has changed but I doubt it, if you use it a short time prolly no big deal but just FYI...

 

[ghermes]

Can someone please help to ID.

 

[reefing noob]

Can someone please help to ID.

looks like coolia to me, I have been running UV for about a week and a half and blowing the sand around with a turkey baster once during the day around peak lighting and once at lights out for the first few days. That changed to once a day and then no need to blow the sand off yesterday. I also noticed a massive pod population explosion 2 days ago, I am going to run UV til saturday so 14 days. I have also been dosing microbater 7 and clean on alternating days.

 

[ghermes]

looks like coolia to me, I have been running UV for about a week and a half and blowing the sand around with a turkey baster once during the day around peak lighting and once at lights out for the first few days. That changed to once a day and then no need to blow the sand off yesterday. I also noticed a massive pod population explosion 2 days ago, I am going to run UV til saturday so 14 days. I have also been dosing microbater 7 and clean on alternating days.

Thanks for the ID. What size is your display, UV and flow. I have a 100g display. I’ve been running 25w UV in my sump for about 3 weeks at about 340g/hr. Things have not improved. I just moved UV to display and slowed flow to 200 g/hr. I’ll see if that helps. Someone said I might need stronger UV.

 

[reefing noob]

Thanks for the ID. What size is your display, UV and flow. I have a 100g display. I’ve been running 25w UV in my sump for about 3 weeks at about 340g/hr. Things have not improved. I just moved UV to display and slowed flow to 200 g/hr. I’ll see if that helps. Someone said I might need stronger UV.

Only 32 gallon, I ran a 9watt green killing machine in the display for 2 weeks and its cleared up. That is just the UV I had laying around. Aim for 1 watt per 3 gallons.

 

[ScottB]

Thanks for the ID. What size is your display, UV and flow. I have a 100g display. I’ve been running 25w UV in my sump for about 3 weeks at about 340g/hr. Things have not improved. I just moved UV to display and slowed flow to 200 g/hr. I’ll see if that helps. Someone said I might need stronger UV.

The typical recommendation is 1 watt per 3 gallons but give it try on the display. Might also consider a lights out/tank wrap to get those buggers swimming.

If you want to dig a little deeper, I put this together a couple years ago. Offers a reasonably holistic view of dinos.

A Dinoflagellate Treatment Guide

As the title suggests, this is intended as a short guide on what to do when you suspect dinoflagellates are trying to overtake your system. It is an attempt to boil down the protocols discussed across 11,000 posts in this "Are you Tired" thread...

www.reef2reef.com