Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[taricha]

If that is the case it would make sense that macroalgae would work on a specific area since it should absorb some co2 in that particular area?

Think of it like Dinos leaving little carbon-dosing biopellets in the system. How much N & P does it take to allow bacteria to process out all the stored C? For some people, tons apparently.
The fact dinos capture C and leave it laying around is a good argument for stopping carbon dosing, but not an argument for avoiding the alkalinity that every organism in the tank needs.

Also, i cant recall if there was any objections on dosing live phytoplankton during this treatment. Maybe it is and i missed it?

Not as helpful as you'd think. It feeds tiny algae to tiny pods. which doesn't seem to help us get bigger pods to eat our big dino cells.
When I dosed live phyto, copepods and ostreopsis dinos both grew, then the dinos covered the copepods killed them and dominated.

So yes, live phyto to increase biodiversity....after there are no signs of visible dinos anymore (my best guess recommendation)

 

[zachxlutz]

Also, i cant recall if there was any objections on dosing live phytoplankton during this treatment. Maybe it is and i missed it?

I've been dosing live phyto daily before and during these dino blooms. I can't say it helps either way. I honestly don't know if it helps with much at all, other than give me more tasks to complete.

 

[landlubber]

Check my post #4322 linked here on 'pods https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/d...ow-along-and-see.253917/page-217#post-3830256

Basically, evidence for helping out with our dinos: isopods and amphipods yes, copepods not so much. And nothing can eat very many of the toxic dinos. Grazers have to take a back seat to cell export/killing with ostreopsis etc.
But with amphidinium, I think the right grazers are a big effect.

i'm dealing with prorocentrum which seems like a less common type of dino. at this point a little headway has been made with nutrient dosing over the past month but not a lot has resulted from the addition of uv aside from nicer looking water.
i haven't changed water over the past month as it seemed to spike populations immediately after but i think with the added nutrient control it's worth a try again.

 

[mcarroll]

I still continue to lose the battle with ostreopsis with N&P levels elevated.

Have levels been consistently > 0.10 ppm PO4? If so, then I would hope the big work on the sand bed will make a dent. If not you may have to get some inoculation action going, such as introducing some detritus, sand or (les ideally) rock from a healthy tank. Probably more than once.

Regarding the carbon-skeleton and what not, i have observed some "swings" in my PH. Usually when my dino count is low due to manual removal or something else my ph resides around 7.9 - 8.2. While the dino is abit worse and blooming my ph goes to 8.0/8.1 - 8.3 in a 24h cycle. Im guessing this is related to them using carbondioxide? If they do use it, wouldnt that mean my calcium reactor and the co2 from it is benificial for the dinos?

Seems consistent with my impression that they are photosynthesizing all the time even after "becoming a heterotroph" and that photosynthetic byproducts are directed into shell ("theca"), mucus and toxin production.

 

[Cscultho]

Have levels been consistently > 0.10 ppm PO4? If so, then I would hope the big work on the sand bed will make a dent. If not you may have to get some inoculation action going, such as introducing some detritus, sand or (les ideally) rock from a healthy tank. Probably more than once.

PO4 levels have stayed consistently above 0.10. I like your idea of introducing nasties from an established tank.

How can i determine if ostreopsis is gone from my system? Microscope samples of water? Or can it hide out in the rocks waiting for another sand bed host?

 

[taricha]

If you are doing the other stuff as talked about (seems the case), and you really have ostreopsis mostly sticking around on the same surfaces, then they may be "too comfortable" and it's possible you will want to tweak the photoperiod down by several hours (cut 30-50% of time - don't blackout) to cause the Dino cells to seek a better spot. Add blasting surfaces with turkey blaster whenever you think about it - but especially during lights out, and you can hopefully get more cells hitting the UV.
Kinda speculative, but seen a couple of tanks - including mine - where it looked like reduced light triggered more Dino cells to spend more time in the water.
Definitely let us know if this has desired effect.

P.s. "gone" means you see no visible populations, no toxic effects, healthy biodiversity, and consistent nutrient inputs and water changes keep the system stable instead of causing swings and blooms.

 

[Cscultho]

If you are doing the other stuff as talked about (seems the case), and you really have ostreopsis mostly sticking around on the same surfaces, then they may be "too comfortable" and it's possible you will want to tweak the photoperiod down by several hours (cut 30-50% of time - don't blackout) to cause the Dino cells to seek a better spot. Add blasting surfaces with turkey blaster whenever you think about it - but especially during lights out, and you can hopefully get more cells hitting the UV.
Kinda speculative, but seen a couple of tanks - including mine - where it looked like reduced light triggered more Dino cells to spend more time in the water.
Definitely let us know if this has desired effect.

P.s. "gone" means you see no visible populations, no toxic effects, healthy biodiversity, and consistent nutrient inputs and water changes keep the system stable instead of causing swings and blooms.

Thanks @taricha.

99% of my sand has been removed and since that point i have no visable signs of dino's. Tank looks prestine with the bare bottom and the cheato i have tucked in the corner of the DT is thriving along with my other inhabitants. The little bit of sand i have on the tank bottom shows no signs of dino's or bubbles. Additionally, i have turned off my UV so i can get green algae to start blooming since the UV has been stunting its growth.

I plan to add LIVE SAND back in to my system but im not sure when is a good point. Im thinking about giving it a month before i try and when i do i will do it in small quantities.

 

[ORIONE]

I successfully beat dino after over a year of trials and errors. Ostreopsis cost me several thousand dollars. What I did was to unplug my biopellet reactor. It was when my tank was new and I did not want to pull my BP reactor for several months because I felt like it was gonna be a waste if I did so. So the reluctance of making the decision cost me I don't even know how many BP reactors... Prior to that I tried everything I could try including blackouts, peroxide, phyto, pH, you name it... The situation was particularly bad because I was running BP and my nutrients were zero so my corals were starving as well. I coupled unplugging BP reactor with increased livestock and feeding. Slowly my tank turned more green and algae started to show.

Several months after unplugging BP reactor dino went away (out of sight). Several months after they went away I tried to use carbon dosing again to bring down my nutrients. Immediately after liquid carbon dosing dino not only showed up again but spread fast and I was very worried at the moment. I knew that carbon was then the limiting factor for ostreopsis.

Therefore, instead of dosing carbon, I tried to limit all the carbon sources in the aquarium. I immediately stopped dosing liquid carbon, amino acids, and fatty acid containing foods like CV and Selcon. In the meantime, I started to regularly dose carbon-fixing denitrification bacteria in an attempt to out-compete dino and limit readily available carbon sources in the water. Slowly dino went away. I decided to see if the results can be repeated so I dosed liquid carbon again while maintaining all other factors unchanged. Dino showed up overnight again and went away as I stopped carbon dosing.

If you search dino and carbon dosing on google, you'll see lots of people reporting this problem while dosing carbon or carbon-rich coral foods. My suggestion for you guys if you have ostreopsis ovata is to first stop all forms of carbon dosing (selcon, vinegar, vodka, liquid carbon, aa, fatty acids, powder coral foods) that can alter the natural balance except natural feeding (by which I mean the ratios of nutrients in frozen foods or seaweed sheets are natural). In the meantime you should dose carbon-fixing bacteria.

 

[Paullawr]

Where was that sample from? it's strange that your sand is where they show up because that species doesn't prefer sand.

Short version. Basically this thread. Elevate N&P by dosing, while selectively killing by UV (or even better - exporting) dino cells. Keep toxins suppressed with GAC.
Minor detail, but don't withhold water changes while you are trying to get other good system diversity established. You want other good stuff to grow.

Nothing fancy, allow everything to grow, while removing dino cells. And be patient.

Or just hit with kalk slurry. Wait 24hrs hit with sodium bicarbonate, rinse and repeat 48hr later. Enjoy.

 

[Paullawr]

I successfully beat dino after over a year of trials and errors. Ostreopsis cost me several thousand dollars. What I did was to unplug my biopellet reactor. It was when my tank was new and I did not want to pull my BP reactor for several months because I felt like it was gonna be a waste if I did so. So the reluctance of making the decision cost me I don't even know how many BP reactors... Prior to that I tried everything I could try including blackouts, peroxide, phyto, pH, you name it... The situation was particularly bad because I was running BP and my nutrients were zero so my corals were starving as well. I coupled unplugging BP reactor with increased livestock and feeding. Slowly my tank turned more green and algae started to show.

Several months after unplugging BP reactor dino went away (out of sight). Several months after they went away I tried to use carbon dosing again to bring down my nutrients. Immediately after liquid carbon dosing dino not only showed up again but spread fast and I was very worried at the moment. I knew that carbon was then the limiting factor for ostreopsis.

Therefore, instead of dosing carbon, I tried to limit all the carbon sources in the aquarium. I immediately stopped dosing liquid carbon, amino acids, and fatty acid containing foods like CV and Selcon. In the meantime, I started to regularly dose carbon-fixing denitrification bacteria in an attempt to out-compete dino and limit readily available carbon sources in the water. Slowly dino went away. I decided to see if the results can be repeated so I dosed liquid carbon again while maintaining all other factors unchanged. Dino showed up overnight again and went away as I stopped carbon dosing.

If you search dino and carbon dosing on google, you'll see lots of people reporting this problem while dosing carbon or carbon-rich coral foods. My suggestion for you guys if you have ostreopsis ovata is to first stop all forms of carbon dosing (selcon, vinegar, vodka, liquid carbon, aa, fatty acids, powder coral foods) that can alter the natural balance except natural feeding (by which I mean the ratios of nutrients in frozen foods or seaweed sheets are natural). In the meantime you should dose carbon-fixing bacteria.

Not trial and error just time and patience. Probably find it wasn't a
Combination listed that worked. Something else in your tank helped it along.

 

[Paullawr]

So... napalm it is!

Tactical nuke. It's the only way to be certain.

 

[Paullawr]

Appears to have the same sesame shape as what i have.....Ostreopsis

Common as muck variety, dead annoying as well.

 

[Paullawr]

So is this thread done then.

The sticky should read-

Raise N and P to x level
Maintain....
Remove as many dino cells as possible during maintenance.

That's the gist correct?

 

[ORIONE]

Not trial and error just time and patience. Probably find it wasn't a
Combination listed that worked. Something else in your tank helped it along.

Yes trial and error. Carbon source in the tank plays a huge role. It's not just N and P. I was previously convinced that just NP method could contain dino until I did the carbon dosing experiment.

 

[Jolanta]

So how are you my friends? I secretly visit you almost every day to see whats new for ostreopsis, seams like a few menaged to kill it in their systems, my tank is actualy 6 weeks of cycle and its time to add some of my fish back. Im so scared to add dinos again with them but my friend who took care of them during my restart never got ostreopsis problem in his tank so I hope those devils was eaten by whatever lives in my friends mature tank. Wish me good luck and keep going with a good work!

 

[StrangeDejavu]

In the meantime you should dose carbon-fixing bacteria.

Like what? I have Vibrant and Microbacter7 on hand.

Also, is KH2PO4 (monopotassium phosphate) safe for raising PO4? I tried raising nitrate a while back and while I saw the best polyp extension I've seen in months from my starving coral, the dinos quickly bloomed. Have not tried phosphate yet though.

 

[bif24701]

Yes trial and error. Carbon source in the tank plays a huge role. It's not just N and P. I was previously convinced that just NP method could contain dino until I did the carbon dosing experiment.

So at the end, carbon was the key?

 

[ORIONE]

Like what? I have Vibrant and Microbacter7 on hand.

Also, is KH2PO4 (monopotassium phosphate) safe for raising PO4? I tried raising nitrate a while back and while I saw the best polyp extension I've seen in months from my starving coral, the dinos quickly bloomed. Have not tried phosphate yet though.

Many provide these bac such as Prodi Bio, aquaforest Pro BioS, Dr. Tim's WasteAway, Equo's vials, KZ Bak.

Seachem has a phosphorus liquid you can add. Personally I like feeding more than adding NO3 and PO4 because the "chain" is continuous.

 

[ORIONE]

So at the end, carbon was the key?

Carbon isn't the sole player. However it can turn the table. In our tanks carbon is the limiting factor, which is why carbon dosing can allow denitrification bacteria to work better. Carbon sources are vital for dino to survive and propagate. If abundant they are free to continue biosynthesis and reproduce. Bacteria, dino, and many other organisms compete against each other for carbon sources as NP are readily available. I ran a risk of destroying my tank all over again to run this experiment. It was repeated with controlled parameters. Almost all the people I know that are struggling with ostreopsis were doing carbon dosing at some point or dosing carbon-rich coral foods. Besides the obvious ones designed for carbon dosing, foods that contain omega-3 or 6 fatty acids and amino acids can also worsen the problem. Selcon, KZ CV, AF E/A, ME aa, Coral Frenzy, and many other products contain fatty acids and amino acids so be careful when you use them.

 

[Scubabeth]

So how are you my friends? I secretly visit you almost every day to see whats new for ostreopsis, seams like a few menaged to kill it in their systems, my tank is actualy 6 weeks of cycle and its time to add some of my fish back. Im so scared to add dinos again with them but my friend who took care of them during my restart never got ostreopsis problem in his tank so I hope those devils was eaten by whatever lives in my friends mature tank. Wish me good luck and keep going with a good work!

Fingers crossed for you, @Jolanta! I know you will be excited (but very nervous!) when you put the fish back in. Please keep us posted!