Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Jolanta]

Fingers crossed for you, @Jolanta! I know you will be excited (but very nervous!) when you put the fish back in. Please keep us posted!

Thank you @Scubabeth, how is your tank doing? Still dosing Vibrant?

 

[bif24701]

Carbon isn't the sole player. However it can turn the table. In our tanks carbon is the limiting factor, which is why carbon dosing can allow denitrification bacteria to work better. Carbon sources are vital for dino to survive and propagate. If abundant they are free to continue biosynthesis and reproduce. Bacteria, dino, and many other organisms compete against each other for carbon sources as NP are readily available. I ran a risk of destroying my tank all over again to run this experiment. It was repeated with controlled parameters. Almost all the people I know that are struggling with ostreopsis were doing carbon dosing at some point or dosing carbon-rich coral foods. Besides the obvious ones designed for carbon dosing, foods that contain omega-3 or 6 fatty acids and amino acids can also worsen the problem. Selcon, KZ CV, AF E/A, ME aa, Coral Frenzy, and many other products contain fatty acids and amino acids so be careful when you use them.

No I got all that, I was just asking if carbon was the final thing. It solves the problem after that?

I too balanced my NO3/PO4 and dosed a bit of carbon. Only then have all traces of dinos evaporated.

 

[StrangeDejavu]

Just dosed 5 ppm KNO3 and 0.25 PO4 so we'll see how it goes. My nutrients have been bottomed out for months now so I hope this will do some good. The last time I dosed 5 ppm KNO3 the dinos flourished, but my phosphate was 0.00 at the time. I have almost no visible micro or macro algae on the rock so I think the tank is just too clean. I added a UV about a month ago but haven't seen a change vs Coolia sp. I don't know how I still have fight left in me after battling them for a year and a half but let's see where this takes me.

 

[bif24701]

Just dosed 5 ppm KNO3 and 0.25 PO4 so we'll see how it goes. My nutrients have been bottomed out for months now so I hope this will do some good. The last time I dosed 5 ppm KNO3 the dinos flourished, but my phosphate was 0.00 at the time. I have almost no visible micro or macro algae on the rock so I think the tank is just too clean. I added a UV about a month ago but haven't seen a change vs Coolia sp. I don't know how I still have fight left in me after battling them for a year and a half but let's see where this takes me.

Year and half!? Wow, that struggle is real!

What UV did you get and what is the flow rate through if?

 

[Paullawr]

Yes trial and error. Carbon source in the tank plays a huge role. It's not just N and P. I was previously convinced that just NP method could contain dino until I did the carbon dosing experiment.

If you have half hour have a read of this. It can get hard going in places but stick with it.

Discusses C N P which are bounced around a lot in this thread. Sometimes far more than they should be, as it's not a cure.

The darkness element made me smile. How many tried blackouts

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3849724/#!po=0.211864

 

[m0jjen]

I can see some results with the n and p dosing. Far from done with this battle. The corals are growing ever so little and i start to get different typ of algae. Mainly som uglies/turf/hairalgae.

So im concidering increasing the po4 dosing abit since my no3 is stable at 10 but the po4 is hard to maintain above 0.1

 

[StrangeDejavu]

Year and half!? Wow, that struggle is real!

What UV did you get and what is the flow rate through if?

Yeah I've been dealing with dinos since the week after my tank finished cycling. Back then, I had Amphidinium. Beat those, and they were immediately replaced with small motionless round ones that Pants (dude with phD in dinoflagellates) didn't even have an ID of but have seen it in other people's tanks too. Beat those and got Coolia immediately after. I've almost sold my entire set up multiple times now but each time I decide to keep trying new things.

The UV is a SunSun 5 Watt, which is the largest I could find for a BioCube 29. It pretty much goes from my lid straight down to the sand and is placed inside the tank. 132 GPH, I wish it were slower but that is the flaw with this design. It's basically a pond pump on the bottom, pulls water in sends it past the bulb and then it comes out the top through a little nozzle. I had limited success with hydrogen peroxide paired with UV but it never went away, just made a dent.

 

[bif24701]

Yeah I've been dealing with dinos since the week after my tank finished cycling. Back then, I had Amphidinium. Beat those, and they were immediately replaced with small motionless round ones that Pants (dude with phD in dinoflagellates) didn't even have an ID of but have seen it in other people's tanks too. Beat those and got Coolia immediately after. I've almost sold my entire set up multiple times now but each time I decide to keep trying new things.

The UV is a SunSun 5 Watt, which is the largest I could find for a BioCube 29. It pretty much goes from my lid straight down to the sand and is placed inside the tank. 132 GPH, I wish it were slower but that is the flaw with this design. It's basically a pond pump on the bottom, pulls water in sends it past the bulb and then it comes out the top through a little nozzle. I had limited success with hydrogen peroxide paired with UV but it never went away, just made a dent.

That flow rate is far too much for that UV. Put a valve on the feed pump or get a smaller pump.

 

[Tft12]

Mcarroll, at this point what Nitrate and Phosphate levels would you suggest trying to maintain in either the case of avoiding dinoflagellates or in the case of attempting to rid a tank of them?

Thanks a lot for becoming the curator of information pertaining to dinoflagellates in reef systems.

 

[StrangeDejavu]

That flow rate is far too much for that UV. Put a valve on the feed pump or get a smaller pump.

I know, but my options are severely limited with a small tank. All the other ones for this size tank either clip onto an HOB filter or use this design. Looking at pictures of it on Google I guess there is no pond pump but rather just an impeller:

 

[Scubabeth]

Thank you @Scubabeth, how is your tank doing? Still dosing Vibrant?

Hi there, @Jolanta! We are still hanging in there! We see Ostreopsis species only under the scope; no strands. Some Coolia species under the scope, but small cell Amphidinium is what we're fighting right now on the sandbed and a bit on some rocks. We are still dosing Vibrant weekly, but it doesn't seem to be helping with the Amphidinium. We're also dosing NO3 and PO4 to work on keeping those elevated. Visible dinos are not our big problem now; our corals are dying off one by one (lost a brain, a frogspawn, and now the montipora and others are so bleached and unhealthy. SOMETHING else is still amiss in our tank. We've got some new liverock and sand from Tampa Bay curing in our QT tank now, so hoping that perhaps adding some biodiversity again that way may "jumpstart" whatever's wrong back into line.

I know you miss your tank, and I wish you the best of luck as you soon restart.

 

[ORIONE]

After all, I just wanted to share this here as carbon does play a big role. I don't necessarily think it's the final player and the bloom of dino is likely associated with more than a few factors. Limiting carbon alone may not be able to solve the problem. However it does offer insight into a new treatment that now hobbyists can incorporate carbon limiting into their regimen. Dinos are like cancers. Ostreopsis is like pancreatic cancer - we might never be able to find a cure for them. But the point is that we might dial our water parameters and use effective methods to bring them into "remission."

 

[scardall]

I successfully beat dino after over a year of trials and errors. Ostreopsis cost me several thousand dollars. What I did was to unplug my biopellet reactor. It was when my tank was new and I did not want to pull my BP reactor for several months because I felt like it was gonna be a waste if I did so. So the reluctance of making the decision cost me I don't even know how many BP reactors... Prior to that I tried everything I could try including blackouts, peroxide, phyto, pH, you name it... The situation was particularly bad because I was running BP and my nutrients were zero so my corals were starving as well. I coupled unplugging BP reactor with increased livestock and feeding. Slowly my tank turned more green and algae started to show.

Several months after unplugging BP reactor dino went away (out of sight). Several months after they went away I tried to use carbon dosing again to bring down my nutrients. Immediately after liquid carbon dosing dino not only showed up again but spread fast and I was very worried at the moment. I knew that carbon was then the limiting factor for ostreopsis.

Therefore, instead of dosing carbon, I tried to limit all the carbon sources in the aquarium. I immediately stopped dosing liquid carbon, amino acids, and fatty acid containing foods like CV and Selcon. In the meantime, I started to regularly dose carbon-fixing denitrification bacteria in an attempt to out-compete dino and limit readily available carbon sources in the water. Slowly dino went away. I decided to see if the results can be repeated so I dosed liquid carbon again while maintaining all other factors unchanged. Dino showed up overnight again and went away as I stopped carbon dosing.

If you search dino and carbon dosing on google, you'll see lots of people reporting this problem while dosing carbon or carbon-rich coral foods. My suggestion for you guys if you have ostreopsis ovata is to first stop all forms of carbon dosing (selcon, vinegar, vodka, liquid carbon, aa, fatty acids, powder coral foods) that can alter the natural balance except natural feeding (by which I mean the ratios of nutrients in frozen foods or seaweed sheets are natural). In the meantime you should dose carbon-fixing bacteria.

Should i stop dosing NO3PO4-X? I have dino's real bad. Been dosing this for over a year with no dino's till a month ago, when I discovered my alk was at 5.9dkh. I am working on raising it to 7+ since and am dosing 35ml X2 on a 75g mixed reef.

 

[m0jjen]

I successfully beat dino after over a year of trials and errors. Ostreopsis cost me several thousand dollars. What I did was to unplug my biopellet reactor. It was when my tank was new and I did not want to pull my BP reactor for several months because I felt like it was gonna be a waste if I did so. So the reluctance of making the decision cost me I don't even know how many BP reactors... Prior to that I tried everything I could try including blackouts, peroxide, phyto, pH, you name it... The situation was particularly bad because I was running BP and my nutrients were zero so my corals were starving as well. I coupled unplugging BP reactor with increased livestock and feeding. Slowly my tank turned more green and algae started to show.

Several months after unplugging BP reactor dino went away (out of sight). Several months after they went away I tried to use carbon dosing again to bring down my nutrients. Immediately after liquid carbon dosing dino not only showed up again but spread fast and I was very worried at the moment. I knew that carbon was then the limiting factor for ostreopsis.

Therefore, instead of dosing carbon, I tried to limit all the carbon sources in the aquarium. I immediately stopped dosing liquid carbon, amino acids, and fatty acid containing foods like CV and Selcon. In the meantime, I started to regularly dose carbon-fixing denitrification bacteria in an attempt to out-compete dino and limit readily available carbon sources in the water. Slowly dino went away. I decided to see if the results can be repeated so I dosed liquid carbon again while maintaining all other factors unchanged. Dino showed up overnight again and went away as I stopped carbon dosing.

If you search dino and carbon dosing on google, you'll see lots of people reporting this problem while dosing carbon or carbon-rich coral foods. My suggestion for you guys if you have ostreopsis ovata is to first stop all forms of carbon dosing (selcon, vinegar, vodka, liquid carbon, aa, fatty acids, powder coral foods) that can alter the natural balance except natural feeding (by which I mean the ratios of nutrients in frozen foods or seaweed sheets are natural). In the meantime you should dose carbon-fixing bacteria.

Im all for this, since my bacteria knowlage is abit rusty, what exacly does include carbon fixing bactera? Example products would be nice!

 

[StrangeDejavu]

Im all for this, since my bacteria knowlage is abit rusty, what exacly does include carbon fixing bactera? Example products would be nice!

He lists them all if you scroll up some, I asked the same thing

 

[m0jjen]

He lists them all if you scroll up some, I asked the same thing

Ah. Bacteria that uses Carbon, nitrate and phosphate. So dosing these would consume the carbon provided that we have n and p. Seems legit

 

[Lowefx]

Ah. Bacteria that uses Carbon, nitrate and phosphate. So dosing these would consume the carbon provided that we have n and p. Seems legit

Wait, this reads a little confusing. I currently does KZ Zeostart (carbon) 2x daily for my KZ Zeolites (stones) and shake off the mulm. I dose KZ Bak 5 drops 2x week for my 120g. I used dry rock and dry sand 1 year ago and cycled with Zeovit system, and dinos have been in my tank more than 8 months.

If I reading this correctly, I should stop dosing Zeostart and maybe dose more Zeobak?

 

[m0jjen]

Wait, this reads a little confusing. I currently does KZ Zeostart (carbon) 2x daily for my KZ Zeolites (stones) and shake off the mulm. I dose KZ Bak 5 drops 2x week for my 120g. I used dry rock and dry sand 1 year ago and cycled with Zeovit system, and dinos have been in my tank more than 8 months.

If I reading this correctly, I should stop dosing Zeostart and maybe dose more Zeobak?

No idea. Sounds like it could work but the last time i tried bacteria i used microbe-lift special blend and it actually made it alot worse

 

[Beardo]

So how are you my friends? I secretly visit you almost every day to see whats new for ostreopsis, seams like a few menaged to kill it in their systems, my tank is actualy 6 weeks of cycle and its time to add some of my fish back. Im so scared to add dinos again with them but my friend who took care of them during my restart never got ostreopsis problem in his tank so I hope those devils was eaten by whatever lives in my friends mature tank. Wish me good luck and keep going with a good work!

You might want to do a freshwater dip (temp and pH matched) of the fish before you put them back in your tank. The rapid change in specific gravity should kill any dinos on the fishes slime coat almost immediately.
I am heading down the same path as you with a tank reset. While removing my corals I am taking the time to try some different treatments which includes a low salinity dip for 30 seconds. After the dip I can find no live Ostreopsis, Prorocretum or Coolia dinos. Doesn't seem to have an effect on amphidinium though. Also doesn't affect resting cysts.
Good luck.

 

[ORIONE]

Wait, this reads a little confusing. I currently does KZ Zeostart (carbon) 2x daily for my KZ Zeolites (stones) and shake off the mulm. I dose KZ Bak 5 drops 2x week for my 120g. I used dry rock and dry sand 1 year ago and cycled with Zeovit system, and dinos have been in my tank more than 8 months.

If I reading this correctly, I should stop dosing Zeostart and maybe dose more Zeobak?

When you use the bac method don't follow the carbon dosing strategy, which means no ZeoStart only ZeoBak and no AF NP Minus only Pro BioS. It's basically dosing a lot of denitrification bacteria to consume readily available carbon sources available all the time to limit dino's uptake of them.