Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[fragit]

Still no sign of dinos returning, however I've got a nice case of Cyano going(red slime). It's all over the sand bed and some on the rock work. Besides the obvious (reducing nutrients and siphoning) in the case of a recent dino bloom what should I do to get rid of the cyano. I'm hesitant to try and clean up my water because I don't want the dinos to return. Any advice @mcarroll?

 

[mcarroll]

No idea....just trying to figure out if there's an "excess" of bio-media. If there's not, then it's moot. If there's also live rock, then there should be no need for something else.

 

[FFJB]

Hi Mcarroll (Matt?). I've been dosing NO3 and PO4 for over a year. I started experimental dosing a 38 g sps skimmerless tank that had a bad outbreak of dinos and starving
sps. I had excellent results (the dinos disappeared completely in about a week) but was always having to battle macroalgae. Unfortunately, I discovered too late that the key to keeping the hair algae at bay is to never let it get established and competing with the coral. Unfortunately, in a small tank, the most useful herbivorous fish aren't an option.

So, in early March my new 180 (with a skimmer and sump, yes!) finished cycling. My NO3 was just over 75 ppm and my PO4 was .5. Because I believe corals should be added before fish, I started adding GPS, xenia, and some hardy LPS like a war coral, some chalices, a hammer colony, a pectinia colony etc. For fun, I stuck a couple cheap acro frags in as well, and they exhibitged major PE so over the next few days I added all the corals from my 38 g and some from my 40 breeder, plus a small azure damsel. I also seeded that tank with pods at this time. Everything went really well for most of the coral for the first month, with the exception of a few plate corals that (evidently) were intolerant of the high nitrates. I moved them back to the 40 but unfortunately too late for most of them. By early April, the NO3 had dropped to 20 ppm and the PO4 to zero. The tank was going thru the typical new tank uglies with lots of diatoms and some brown algae. I added fighing conches, turbos, and other snails. I was only lighting one half of the tank with a 36" 6 bulb T5, but it was not nearly enough light for the acros, which IME require a lot of light in high nutrient conditions. The new LEDs I ordered were late in coming. The sps browned out a bit and were not exhibiting as much or any PE. I tentatively dosed PO4 and added four more small fish that I'd had for several years. Other, larger fish, including a small fox face were still in QT. IMO, the sps were browning out due to a combination of low light and high nutrients, so I hesitated to dose much PO4 and instead decided to start dosing aminos.

This was dumb. By mid April, I had lots of brown algae and the beginning of dinos. NO 3 was stuck at 20 ppm. I added the Fox face and dosed more aminos. I lost a few chalices and acro frags. A large red planet colony started to look bleached, while other frags and colonies turned dark brown and looked dead. Two of my three stylo colonies began to stn, along with a prized seriatopora; although, amazingly a large percentage of my acros looked fine and even grew. By the end of the third week in April, the water was clouded with bacteria and dinos were everywhere (that was lit). I lost a few more acros and the stylos and bird's nest were still slowing stn-ing. One of my new lights finally arrived. I quite dosing aminos and did what I should have done three weeks earlier: Dose PO4 with confidence.

Now, I know one of the axioms of this hobby is that only bad things happen fast, but in my 180's case, not so. The next day, corals were looking significantly better. The bacteria disappeared after a few days, and the dinos were completely gone in two weeks (the majority disappeared after just a few days). Amazingly, all of the browned out acros began to recover, and my stylos and bird's nest began to regrow. By May, NO3 dropped below 5 ppm and I commenced dosing it, as well. Now, just three weeks later, the tank is looking awesome. Yes, there is a tiny bit of hair algae, but the herbivore crew (including about a million pods) have it under control (plus I'm QT-ing a little Tomini tang to help out Spike the Fox Face). So, I'm with you mccarroll, if you feed the good stuff it out-competes the bad stuff. Plus, always order your lighting well ahead of when you need it.

What po4 are you dosing?

 

[mcarroll]

Still no sign of dinos returning, however I've got a nice case of Cyano going(red slime). It's all over the sand bed and some on the rock work. Besides the obvious (reducing nutrients and siphoning) in the case of a recent dino bloom what should I do to get rid of the cyano. I'm hesitant to try and clean up my water because I don't want the dinos to return. Any advice @mcarroll?

What are the current tests showing for NO3 and PO4? Hypothetically, cyano takes advantage of a lack of available N, so that's got to be happening somehow.....but it's not always as clear as just the NO3 test results. They make their own N so they can use up other dissolved nutrients that other critters (hetero- and phagotrophs) just can't utilize without their own source of N.

 

[reeferfoxx]

however I've got a nice case of Cyano going(red slime). It's all over the sand bed and some on the rock work.

I have the same issue along with some turf/gha growing. I started with 100% dry rock and if I were to follow suit with going through the ugly phases, usually we let the algae consume excess nutrients while performing smaller more frequent wc's. Let me know if someone doesn't agree? So, for me I'm letting the algae consume what it needs to while beginning manual removal of cyano. However, I am doing my best to leave the sandbed alone. I believe a lot of my issues were from never letting the sandbed properly cycle or mature in this case. That is my plan. First wc after a week and a half will be tonight.

 

[fragit]

What are the current tests showing for NO3 and PO4? Hypothetically, cyano takes advantage of a lack of available N, so that's got to be happening somehow.....but it's not always as clear as just the NO3 test results. They make their own N so they can use up other dissolved nutrients that other critters (hetero- and phagotrophs) just can't utilize without their own source of N.

I haven't tested in a week, but will this Sunday so stay tuned for those results. I've changed nothing though, been feeding 2 cubes of frozen spirulina brine daily. I have not done a WC in about a month maybe a little more. Is that something I should consider?

 

[Rakie]

I feel comfortable reporting that my dinos are finally gone. They are no longer trying to establish, the SPS stress colors are going away.

I used quite a lot of methods to get rid of them, one of which is the controversial metronidazole method. This helped a lot. But won't help everyone.

I also rid myself if GHA and Bryopsis. I have a lil left on snails shells lol... But they're dying off too.

Towards the end, I employed a bit of Fritz algae clean out to endure the stubborn GHA dies off.

This has been a HUGE cycle of dinos, algaes, dinos, and algaes again. Now that there's less than 5% of algae left, and Dino's are dead, I've got a lil bit if cyano. Compared to dinos, walk in the park.

 

[mwilk19]

First update since I put the UV sterilizer on line. I went to the UV because even though I was working to get NO3 and PO4 into the target ranges the dinos were ravaging my tank. I really wanted to avoid going to any of the chemical solution because they have been hit and miss. To be honest, I really didn't have much in the way of expectations for this method. I know @Velcro had used it with success but every tank is different. As I said, the unit went on line on Tuesday afternoon and didn't really see much difference yesterday morning. I did my usual siphoning of dinos after the lights had been on for a while. Later in the day I checked the tank and it seemed like there was less regeneration of dino strands but I really wanted to avoid the placebo effect. That's where you're so desperate for a process to work that you see what you want to see instead of what is reality. This morning when the lights came on I checked the tank and while the dinos are still there, it was apparent that the UV was having some effect. I purposely didn't siphon in the morning wanting to see how much they would collect in their usual spots. The leather corals are normally most heavily covered. There was very little accumulation on either. There was very little on my SPS corals also. Just as Velcro reported, some zoas which hadn't opened for quite a while were opening again. Where there had been strands of dinos on the sand, there was now just some brown coloration. It's too early in the process to declare this a success, it certainly makes me feel that there is now some hope for saving my corals and my sanity. The key will be reaching a happy equilibrium with my nutrients to keep this nasty stuff at bay.

 

[Velcro]

good luck, I would recommend a more poewr

First update since I put the UV sterilizer on line. I went to the UV because even though I was working to get NO3 and PO4 into the target ranges the dinos were ravaging my tank. I really wanted to avoid going to any of the chemical solution because they have been hit and miss. To be honest, I really didn't have much in the way of expectations for this method. I know @Velcro had used it with success but every tank is different. As I said, the unit went on line on Tuesday afternoon and didn't really see much difference yesterday morning. I did my usual siphoning of dinos after the lights had been on for a while. Later in the day I checked the tank and it seemed like there was less regeneration of dino strands but I really wanted to avoid the placebo effect. That's where you're so desperate for a process to work that you see what you want to see instead of what is reality. This morning when the lights came on I checked the tank and while the dinos are still there, it was apparent that the UV was having some effect. I purposely didn't siphon in the morning wanting to see how much they would collect in their usual spots. The leather corals are normally most heavily covered. There was very little accumulation on either. There was very little on my SPS corals also. Just as Velcro reported, some zoas which hadn't opened for quite a while were opening again. Where there had been strands of dinos on the sand, there was now just some brown coloration. It's too early in the process to declare this a success, it certainly makes me feel that there is now some hope for saving my corals and my sanity. The key will be reaching a happy equilibrium with my nutrients to keep this nasty stuff at bay.

fingers crossed that you have the same success as me. It took 48 hours for me to really have to look for them.

 

[Vaughn17]

What po4 are you dosing?

Seachem Activate. It's a freshwater product.

 

[mcarroll]

Seachem Activate. It's a freshwater product.

Is that the combined NO3+PO4 product?

 

[FFJB]

I've always heard seachem flourish phosphorous

 

[Velcro]

Is that the combined NO3+PO4 product?

If he's talking about aquavitro activate it's just potassium phosphate salts.

 

[rockstarta78]

I've been following this thread for a while now. I have talked to @mcarroll on PM several times regarding algae issues I've been dealing with for months now. I have dosed N & P in my tank sporadically. Never followed through due to work load, family issues and host of other issues. So I will always have Dino on my sand bed. I have tried lights out, no water change, H2O2 and nothing has helped. Now I see a battle between Cyano and Dino in my tank. So if you say my tank looks ugly, that's an understatement.

Finally I have decided enough is enough and I want to make the time every day to fight this and hopefully I might just win this battle eventually. This just got personal. . For last 3 days, I have been religiously dosing KNO3 and Seachem PO4.

My tank is a 40 b with 20 long sump. After water displacement and sump I have total of 50g of water. I've been dosing 10ml of KNO3, and 1 cap full of PO4, which should give me (based on the web calculators) 5ppm NO3, and 0.1ppm PO4. But I am stuck at 2.5ppm NO3 (Salifert) and 0.01ppm PO4 (Hanna UL), which is technically 0 ppm PO4. I am guessing, between the Cyano and Dino, something is fighting for PO4.

One other thing I am missing, I don't have any pods in my tank. @mcarroll I think I forgot to mention that to you when we spoke. For some other issues I bleached and acid washed my rocks back in December and never got around to seeding my tank with PODS, so in essence you can say that this is a new tank setup (I never removed the sand though). I need to order some pods, which I am hoping to do soon.

So my plan right now is:

- Do a 50% water change and major vacuum on Sunday
- Start Kalkwasser drip (I want to raise my PH, which I believe is low right now)
- Continue dosing 10ml KNO3 and 1 cap full PO4
- Vacuum the sandbed as necessary
- I have a BRS reactor and I am going to start running BRS Rox 0.8 Carbon (no GFO, carbon only)
- Run my Skimmer 24/7

Keeping my fingers crossed. Hopefully I will win this fight and get my tank back. I almost took a sledge hammer to the tank. But @mcarroll suggested I give it a 2nd shot.

 

[rockstarta78]

I hope to keep you guys posted on my FIGHT . If nothing else, hopefully it will help some other reefer.

P.S. My new goal, for my tank is to use as little chemical as possible and keep it as natural as possible. I think I am done trying everything. Note to self: try being more patient.

 

[Vaughn17]

Is that the combined NO3+PO4 product?

No, just PO4. I use NaNo3 for nitrate dosing.

 

[Lowefx]

Sorry if this was already asked in previous post but....

Does anyone run Cheato with their tank and still have dinos?

 

[mcarroll]

Sorry if this was already asked in previous post but....

Does anyone run Cheato with their tank and still have dinos?

Chaeto usually dies off from lack of nutrients before the dino's take hold....micro-algae are usually the last to go....but not always...I think we've seen some photos of dino's on macro's.

 

[drawman]

I thought it was fairly common for people with frag tanks to seed ceramic media with live rock then remove.

I used AF bio S bacteria instead of live rock. Same idea just less diversity. That said I did hold onto a few frag plugs that added algae, etc in the water...and much later dinos of course :mad:

No idea....just trying to figure out if there's an "excess" of bio-media. If there's not, then it's moot. If there's also live rock, then there should be no need for something else.

Just finished reading the entire cure thread and even though it's like stabbing in the dark there are some good concepts learned. I think bleach, metro, anything further needs to be studied with specific identified strains in beakers not tanks at this point.

I've been trying to raise PO4 and have been adding a lot more than I thought. I will add an equivalent of about .08ppm one day and the next it will be back down to .02ppm (or less) on my ULR Hanna Checker. Either the Siporax, dinos, or both are using a lot of PO4. I know it will eventually balance out so I will keep at it. I have not seen any increased growth in other algae (GHA, etc.) either. I don't have sand or rock for Dinos to adhere to so it's hard to say if they're doing better or worse but more than likely no change at the moment. Last test results were 5ppm NO3, .02ppm PO4 on Friday and I'm away from this tank on the weekends.

I also feel like I remembered seeing a lot less copepods in this tank so now I'm starting to wonder if the dinos have taken them out as well. I always had a fair number on the glass. There is a very faint green growth on the glass which I've intentionally kept but I don't remember seeing many (if any). I will look closely on Monday. I've been thinking of specifically buying Isopods as that seems to be the most likely dino predator, am I correct?

My acros have thus far been decimated and there is not much holding on in this tank. My plan of attack will be to continue increasing PO4 (while keeping NO3 stable). If that doesn't work out then I may be forced to employ bleach. If that doesn't work I will likely take this tank down. Acros are what really keep me in this hobby and I would have a tank with just them (no fish, etc) and be completely happy. This tank is now more of a frustration in my life and the hobby does not need to be that. I know it sounds like a vent but I'm actually at peace about it.

 

[rockstarta78]

For past 5 days I've been dosing NO3 and PO4 in my tank with regular siphoning. As of last night my PO4 was at 0.034ppm and NO3 at 10ppm. However, it fluctuates big time. My goal is to keep both params steady at po4 = 0.03ppm and NO3 at 5ppm. They haven't stabilized yet. I am hoping with regular dosing, and Kalk dosing they will stabilize soon.

I already see a big difference. At least on the sand bad. The Cyano bloom is almost gone. There are few very small patches left. Now I don't know if the improvement is due to vacuuming the sand bed? or from dosing? or both! I am leaning towards both. Keeping my fingers crossed.