Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Paullawr]

Point was to start small then increase.


Sometimes when we get to the restart or start over point, we tend not to care about the little things... Lol


Other corals are starting to show stress. Like I said, the dinos are going into turbo mode(overdrive)

Oh I agree, start off light. I did find they developed immunity however. H202 was going really well, cleared worse than your photos in about a week leaving just a 'white' patch which looked dead to the eye. Only it wasn't, it would regrow within an hour of being removed. From that it redeveloped and h202 no longer worked until adding extreme dosing levels.

This is the problem, you do go beyond care at times for everything else and become focused on removal.

What's your water temps been. Any increase where you are. Have you tried reducing lighting schedule.

 

[reeferfoxx]

This is the problem, you do go beyond care at times for everything else and become focused on removal.

What's your water temps been. Any increase where you are. Have you tried reducing lighting schedule.

Prior to the outbreak, a heat wave did hit. The tank increased 1.5 -2 deg. That was within 8 hours. Then the dino broke loose. There was a nutrient reduction at the same time. But I'm not really trying to figure out why I have this outbreak. I know why it happened.

Tank temp is 77 deg. Lights are on for peak of 7 hours with 30 minute ramp up then 3 hour ramp down. And no I haven't tried a light reduction.

 

[mcarroll]

What did Robert and Russ do t connect dots Mcarroll.

You'd have to go back and read through their posts for all the context (neither one seems to participate here anymore), but they seemed to be anchoring the nutrient conversation at the time I was sorting out my tank and they were both making some great observations.

 

[mwilk19]

Think I missed this...sorry! Let me know if any of my comments are now "dated".



This is not an unheard of link.

Were you monitoring N and P during this early time? Do you have any numbers from then you could post? (If it was all-zero's all the time, you can just say so. )



No doubt they were beginning to suffer for lack of nutrients. This is the same condition in many cases that triggers dino's to change their behavior and become more aggressive.



This sounds like you weren't doing anything for P at the time?

Salt shouldn't make a difference, although stability of your salinity as well as temperature can both make a difference to triggering your dino's to bloom.



Too much too fast for a tank that probably still had most of the same problems – lack of P is very, very bad.

Check out some of the posts on phosphates in the coral section on my blog:
Search Link



They never are gone – that was your gut talking to you! Keep listening.

It might even be true that the tank work be worse-off without them – we have no idea what role they play when they aren't blooming.

So the tank went through another bout of instability on at least a few fronts including starvation again (how stable is feeding?) – not totally surprising to see them come back.

• Stability is job one.
• Keep your doses small and regular.
• Make any changes to your dose small and infrequent. (see below)
• Test regularly and record your results in some kind of diary.
• Don't expect good results for at least a few weeks.
• Don't run out of patience for at least a month or two....things very often appear to get uglier before they get better.

.05 ppm/5.0 ppm are reasonable targets that give your system some headroom for growth without going to excess.

Thank you for the detailed reply. I included a screenshot of my NO3 and PO4 readings from my Apex. I test usually twice a week for ALK,Ca, and Mg. I Test for NO3 and PO4 on Fridays. My PO4 never bottomed out but my NO3 was at 0 from mid October until January. That may have been caused by the fact that my tank was fallow from September until January. I tested NO3 last Friday and got a reading of 5.0ppm and I tested PO4 on Sunday and got a reading of .11. I know these buggers never go away and it's just a matter of maintaining a balance to keep them in check. I'm reducing my light cycle for a period of 4 hours per day to see if that helps. Any other thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Giving up isn't an option. I'm retired, so it's either reef keeping or drinking heavily. My wife prefers the reef keeping.

 

[reeferfoxx]

I'm retired, so it's either reef keeping or drinking heavily.

I read this as Dino keeping or Drinking LOL. The latter sounds more fun ;Happy

 

[mcarroll]

There was a nutrient reduction at the same time. But I'm not really trying to figure out why I have this outbreak. I know why it happened.

So it looks like you have a dino/green cyano combination going on....somewhat unique from what I've seen.

Do you also have a microscope to look at samples of the bloom?

If you've never dosed anything but the little bit of H2O2 you just mentioned, then there's a good chance that correcting nutrients (assuring a continuous supply of N and P – nothing extreme) may be all that's needed.

What was behind the nutrient reduction? How long did it take and how did you do it?

 

[mcarroll]

Giving up isn't an option. I'm retired, so it's either reef keeping or drinking heavily. My wife prefers the reef keeping.

My liver hurts, so reefing gets my vote too!

From the charts it looks like PO4 and NO3 were both effectively zero for a significant period of time. (Near-zero is as good as zero in these cases where it gets down to the wire...everything competing for what amounts to scraps.)

Consider stocking up on a little NO3 and PO4 supplement (DIY, Brightwell or Seachem seem to be the prevailing options.) and start a daily dosing regime to keep a small supply of N and P available all the time. (Extra feeding doesn't seem to have the same effect in the short term, but in the longer term that's the answer.)

Dose based on testing, start small, and there's no reason to take levels over about 5 ppm NO3 and 0.05 ppm PO4.

 

[Paullawr]

Perhaps, still prevention can be better than cure. If we cannot prevent them entering in to the tanks, preventing them going in to overdrive might be a wiser choice.

Otherwise as I've found 5 times now I think I'm at, it's pretty seasonal. Except we having nothing really to disperse them. So when they arrive they don't stop like in the wild.

What does assist the germination of the cysts is an increase in temperature combined with a disturbance of sand (or what ever it is they are living in - i.e. Rock). You mention nutrient reduction, water changes, heavy cleaning?

This is long theorised as the catalyst in the sea. Warmer weather and water currents. Of which a by product of cool and warm air are storms. This upswell is the trigger. With it nutrients being released allow for the cells to propagate.

So yes it's replicated by heat waves and tank maintenance.

Lighting time is ok to be honest. If you were to say 10/12 hours I'd cut it back.

Blue light is supposed to reduce the level of photosynthesis but I'd also take that with a pinch of salt. These have the same makeup as what's in the corals so if blue light is ok for them....Having said this, I did the suggested.

So like the thousands of us that know we have it You want a cure. I wish one existed. Here are some of things I've tried with measure of successes.

Vibrant. I wouldn't use it to work on the dinos. It wipes out the other algae that are supporting the microfauna we want to keep. In the end goes on to assist them.

Same with Dino x which I've tried three times now and has done nothing but upset everything but the dinos.

H202, already advised on it.

Bleach not tried it. Probably won't. Hit and miss. Chlorine is risky.

Emptying tank and inhabitants and run fresh water through it. No doesn't work either. Doesn't seem to bother cysts and they will re-emerge the moment you have everything settled. That was a weekend I'll never get back.

Kalk slurry with sodium carbonate. Masively works but you could have losses. Don't do it if you corals are alive. It will kill them. Don't do it if you have ph sensitive fish i.e. Butterfly.
NB this isn't a cure but can help you get on top. I still have them but I'm hugely reduced numbers.

Blackouts do nothing but breathing space for maybe a day or so.

Metroplex....investing one. Does affect them but affects all protists. Some of which feed on others. Still your call. For the record I used it this time and in the past.

Nutrient balancing. Which is really nutrient for critters and algae. This seems to be the adopted method for keeping in check. As I say you won't notice a difference though if the critters aren't there to begin with. Still keep at it.

Ozone. Seemed to work to begin with them had no effect. I run at 450Mv.

Otherwise....I can only assume the successes we see on here are bi products of other changes we are unaware of.

 

[reeferfoxx]

So it looks like you have a dino/green cyano combination going on....somewhat unique from what I've seen.

Actually, I don't see green cyano. I think what you are seeing is some type of green turf algae that started prior to dino outbreak. There is some red cyano mixed in though.

Do you also have a microscope to look at samples of the bloom?

I was going to purchase one, but in light of recent local news articles, the city has upped ammonia and chloramines in the water system. So I was going to purchase an upgrade for my RO/DI to go from 4 stage to 6 stage. However my car was robbed two nights ago and due to my negligence, lost a pricey item that will have to be replaced. My reefing funds are getting depleted quickly.

What was behind the nutrient reduction? How long did it take and how did you do it?

I PM'd you about this two weeks ago. I'll just copy and paste what was written.

So back in March I decided I didn't like the look of a rock in the tank. I started a thread asking some questions about rock removal and breaking it down. Seemed like a simple carefree task.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/re-scaping-with-establish-rock-questions.298079/page-2

According to the thread, April 15th, I pulled the rock and tried beating it with a hammer. To my surprise, the rock had been/or was wet in the middle? Some kind of break down cause the rock to be mush in the center. The reason i wanted to break the rock down was because of how dense it was. Not much water flow impacting around the rock. Since I never experienced mushy rock, I posted another thread for more insight.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/need-some-help.300947/

That day I made the decision that that rock will not be going back in the tank. Since I had more dry rock laying around, I began cleaning, soaking the new rock, and preparing for a curing process. I did run some GFO(for two weeks in ro/di) with this rock to absorb silica and excess po4 that was previously experienced with this rock. I soaked the rock for two weeks in freshwater. Then removed the GFO and started a cycling process. I kick started the cycle with Dr. T one and only. The rock remained in a temp controlled brute trash can for the next 5 weeks.
In that time PO4 was raising in the DT, but kind of leveled out at 0.08ppm. So then I pulled the new rock and began attaching pieces to create caves and try to maintain similar profile as the old rock. Before adding the new rock to the tank, I vacuumed the sandbed and the back sump chambers due to accumulated detritus. Then the rock was added.
A few days went by and things seemed fine. Then about the 4th day, my bubble coral deflated, chaeto died in the refugium, and my SPS began losing color. I ran some parameter tests and it showed that my PO4 was 0.001 and NO3 was visually undetectable. I then started seeing brown dusting with cyano mixed. I was curious as to why considering what I had done. About the same time this was being discovered, we had a heat wave hit and I neglected to set my air conditioning to an appropriate temp. I came home from work and noticed the temp about 1.5 deg higher than it should be. I fixed that issue and just wrote off the brown dusting as diatoms.
Alk was initially around 8-8.5 so I let it fall to 7.5 due to lack of N and P. After about a week, my bubble coral had died but everything else started to rebound. Even now the coral are regaining colors and growth BUT snails are dying and acting lethargic. After letting this brown with cyano growth kind of flourish for a bit, I realized I may not be dealing with diatoms.
I began dosing PO4 and NO3 and increased feedings. Still having a hard time detecting po4. NO3 has been fluctuating. Alk and calcium dosing seems normal but not as much dosing as before. I'm not noticing any pods and it seems my amphipods have disappeared, as well.

The timeline is a little vague but N and P dosing began between June 5th and June 8th..

 

[mcarroll]

Thanks for the re-post – too many threads and conversations to keep them all in mind at once.

More to come...

 

[mcarroll]

That's some terrible luck on the car, BTW.....so sorry.

 

[mcarroll]

Going back to that PM for a moment...

 

[Paullawr]

That's some terrible luck on the car, BTW.....so sorry.

+1

 

[reeferfoxx]

Okay, so last night before bed I went and basted the rocks and the sandbed to kind of clean things up. I was going to take a picture, but I felt like it wasn't necessary. Things did appear to look cleaner this morning while lights were still off. Anyway, here is the post work schedule and beginning of ramp down on the lights. I did adjust the lights momentarily with the pumps off for this these pictures. But you can see the regrowth.
Some of the pics might be hazy due to the dirty glass.







This last pic I took was interesting to me because I haven't(until now) noticed any green algae growing on the glass. Also my toadstool isn't happy ;Meh

 

[mwilk19]

Would utilizing a refugium with chaeto be a useful tool in nutrient control? You can always dose NO3 and PO4 up, but you can't necessarily dose down.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Would utilizing a refugium with chaeto be a useful tool in nutrient control? You can always dose NO3 and PO4 up, but you can't necessarily dose down.

Yes. A refugium with cheato will provide nutrient control.

 

[mcarroll]

This last pic I took was interesting to me because I haven't(until now) noticed any green algae growing on the glass.

An early sign of recovery!!! Yay!

The toadstool is just getting ready to shed....as long as he's getting good flow it shouldn't be an issue.

That's some gnarly growth.....dino's over turf algae? A buddy had that....only place dino's would grow is on the one rock where turf algae was growing – and it'd grow over the top of the turf. Weird.

Is it me or do all of your corals actually look kinda great?!

 

[reeferfoxx]

Is it me or do all of your corals actually look kinda great?!

Well, some of my coral are looking great. The frogspawn which isnt shown, isn't opening fully, and the last image show a browning with bleached bottom orange acan. And most the zoas and clove polyps haven't opened in a couple weeks.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Oh and that last image has a green with pink eye chalice. It's more turqouis with brown eyes.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Don't judge that purple stylo. That coral can grow in a cool bucket of water with a flashlight hanging on top lol!