Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[taricha]

I think they are dinos... here is a video of their family reunion

The one on the left has had wayyyy too much to drink and making moves on his cousin... and she's only 16 minutes old... pervert!!!

Whoa. That's new. It really looks like gambierdiscus, a genus that's well researched, but not seen in the hobby since Pants ID them in a tank back before 2014.
Could also be a weird form of ostreopsis (o. Lenticularis is very flattened like that).
The movement makes me lean ostreopsis, the egg yolk like center makes me lean gambierdiscus. Hard to say.
Regardless, treat it like ostreopsis.

@taricha can you lend your expertise.

I agree with the below...

It may not be good enough, ostreopsis are known to enter the water column at night but may not be traveling through the sump in a large enough quantity for the UV to make a dent. I had great success in knocking back the ostreopsis dinos with my UV pump located in the display. Once I had the ostreopsis under control, I moved the UV to the sump. This, along with nutrient balancing, cured my tank of ostreopsis dinoflagellates.

Hard to know if the water exchange between sump and display is big enough to ensure total mixing. Unless there are masses of Dinos setting up shop in the sump, I suspect the UV directly plumbed to the display will work better.

Feel free to fight unfair. Run longer dark period to increase nighttime trips of ostis into the water. Blast surfaces to push more still into the water.

 

[Scubabum]

Been fighting the dreaded Dino for almost 6 months now. Blackouts, UV, no water changes, siphoning sand bed, Increase nutrients to 10ppm Nitrate .10 Phos, Reduce photo period, and just finished a round of DinoX. My alkalinity and Calcium consumption has come to a complete halt and prior to the outbreak I was dosing 26 mils of AF comp 1 2 3. My dosing pump has been off for 7 weeks. Coral is suffering more and more as each day goes on. I bought the 10 dollar microscope and included a picture of what I believe is amphidinium but would like to get a positive ID and any other suggestions on how to fight this before doing a complete reboot. ReeferFoxx suggested Dr. Tims Eco Balance which arrives tomorrow. Current params... PH 8.2 , Alk 8.3 Ca 445, Mg 1500 Nitrate 10ppm Phos .10 Thanks in advance..

amphidinium??????

 

[saltyhog]

I started dosing nitrate 12 days ago and started dosing phosphate a few days later. I now have my nitrate at 5, and over shot a little with my phosphate as it's up to 0.11. I have not seen any appearance of algae in the tank but the dinos are 75% reduced!

I'm guessing the competition is not for space but for something else? I have tons of macro algae in the refugium and in the over flow. I'm positive it's not placebo, the difference is very noticeable.

The battle continues!

 

[taricha]

Large Cell Amphidinium (post #1191)...
See that link for my post rounding up some accounts of mine and others versus this type.
It's been coming up a bunch lately, so I've been thinking a bit and got ideas for a direct cell removal method. This is needed because it is the only kind that we know will not go into the water, and can't be touched by UV or other methods targeting the water column.

What you need:

• A UV unit,
• 5 gal bucket or two
• Tubing for vacuuming out sand
• fresh water (tap is fine)

Siphon the sand surface trouble spots (get all the cyano too - amphidinium hangs out in cyano a lot) into a 5gal bucket or similar. Not a 1/4" airline tube - too small. Think Gravel Vac, but without the wide mouth that slows the flow and lets the sand grains fall back down. 1/2 or 3/4" tube or so. Whatever is quick and relatively painless.

If you aren't wanting to do water changes, run the water that you siphoned out (not the sand - leave it in bucket for later) from your 5 Gal bucket through a UV unit - slowly back into the tank. If you wanna be real thorough, run the water through the UV into a 2nd 5 Gal bucket, then from the 2nd bucket through the UV again back into the tank.
Very few amphidinium should even be in the water - they'll hug the sand - but those that do, should not survive a trip or two through slow-flow (200 gph)UV.

Now for the sand. Scoop with a net as fine as whatever size grains you want to keep and dunk under fresh water (even tap is fine) for 10 seconds.
Then replace the sand back into the tank. The 10 seconds of fresh water will lyse the amphidinium cells, but it should be short enough to allow most of the stronger inverts (pods, shrimp, ostracods, worms, etc) to survive.

That's the best I've got so far on a selective cell killing for Large Cell Amphidinium.

 

[taricha]

amphidinium??????

based on that pic, and this earlier comment....

I slowly let my nutrients fall back to lower levels 2ppm and .03 and my Dino has re appeared. This time it's a little different. This time it's strictly on the sand bed.

Yes, Large Cell Amphidinium.
you've got your N & P up. Is green algae successfully growing anywhere in the system?

 

[Scubabum]

based on that pic, and this earlier comment....

Yes, Large Cell Amphidinium.
you've got your N & P up. Is green algae successfully growing anywhere in the system?

After seeing it re appear I raised my N & P back up. No green algae anywhere to be seen, but a bit of Cyano has appeared on my rock.

 

[taricha]

After seeing it re appear I raised my N & P back up. No green algae anywhere to be seen, but a bit of Cyano has appeared on my rock.

Ok. Your Dinos are likely not very toxic, but your lack of water changes sounds like it's hurting more than helping at this point.

Also stop with the low light / blackout stuff. All these things are likely stressing corals more than the Amphidinium would.

Also experiment with a simpler Ca/Alk than the AF123. It has a lot of stuff in it, and simpler may be better.

 

[Scubabum]

Ok. Your Dinos are likely not very toxic, but your lack of water changes sounds like it's hurting more than helping at this point.

Also stop with the low light / blackout stuff. All these things are likely stressing corals more than the Amphidinium would.

Also experiment with a simpler Ca/Alk than the AF123. It has a lot of stuff in it, and simpler may be better.

Appreciate the advice on the blackouts and low light, but here lies the problem. My Alkalinity and Calcium has completely stalled. Im seeing absolutely ZERO drop. I've been stuck at 8.3 DKH for 7 weeks without dosing anything. I've never seen anything like it. I have approx 30+ SPS frags and 8 LPS and a few Zoa colonies and consumption has just stopped. I do have BRS 2 part on hand and I'm more than happy to dose that vs the AF 1 2 3 but as of the last 7 weeks no drop. Have you ever seen anything like this????

 

[reeferfoxx]

Appreciate the advice on the blackouts and low light, but here lies the problem. My Alkalinity and Calcium has completely stalled. Im seeing absolutely ZERO drop. I've been stuck at 8.3 DKH for 7 weeks without dosing anything. I've never seen anything like it. I have approx 30+ SPS frags and 8 LPS and a few Zoa colonies and consumption has just stopped. I do have BRS 2 part on hand and I'm more than happy to dose that vs the AF 1 2 3 but as of the last 7 weeks no drop. Have you ever seen anything like this????

I will say it's not uncommon for stressed coral to halt consumption. I think you are at a point where a 10% weekly water change with constant GAC change outs would help. If you aren't back to your normal light intensity, I would resume that. I think one thing I never did during my outbreaks was adjust lighting. Though, it might have prolonged my dino outbreak but coral stress and inconsistencies stayed at a minimum.

 

[taricha]

Appreciate the advice on the blackouts and low light, but here lies the problem. My Alkalinity and Calcium has completely stalled. Im seeing absolutely ZERO drop. I've been stuck at 8.3 DKH for 7 weeks without dosing anything. I've never seen anything like it. I have approx 30+ SPS frags and 8 LPS and a few Zoa colonies and consumption has just stopped. I do have BRS 2 part on hand and I'm more than happy to dose that vs the AF 1 2 3 but as of the last 7 weeks no drop. Have you ever seen anything like this????

That's what I'm responding to. The zero algae growth and zero coral growth despite present modest N and P and normal Ca/Alk/Mag levels says that there's something about the system that has locked everything down and is preventing the system from moving on.

I've seen it both ways, caused by dinos, and caused by hobbyist doing no water changes for extended time. Both ways can lead to a system that seems locked in place.
I suspect trace element limitation in some cases, and biotoxins in others or a combo. (Reeferfox alluded to this with the comment about activated carbon)

Go the other way from the system lockdown: change water, keep nutrients up, give light. Let the system grow and move on, siphon dinos until other things establish.

 

[sfin52]

@taricha would covering the sand bed with cheato or something else help with large cell amphidinium.

 

[taricha]

@taricha would covering the sand bed with cheato or something else help with large cell amphidinium.

Macroalgae, especially chaeto directly on the trouble spots in the sand was hugely effective for me. See the post I linked to above, and another link within that post detailing how I used chaeto precisely that way more than once.
lots of pics too.

 

[Paullawr]

Well it was pulled from the ocean floor in Fiji. So you get minerals and all the other good stuff. Watching a few youtube videos on it, and some people had worms in theirs.

I heard Fiji mud was fake and mineral. Was better :O

 

[becks]

Was there any relation to tank using dry rock and having dinoflagellates issues?

 

[sfin52]

The first page I believe talks about it

 

[reeferfoxx]

I heard Fiji mud was fake and mineral. Was better :O

Lol? Fake what?

 

[fishbox]

I heard Fiji mud was fake and mineral. Was better :O

Thanks for pointing that out. I'll do my due diligence before purchasing

 

[sfin52]

So is mud good and which brand is best

 

[reeferfoxx]

Thanks for pointing that out. I'll do my due diligence before purchasing

Yeah. Definitely research. The fake claim is completely anecdotal and honestly I couldnt find a thread stating this claim. Miracle Mud is pre baked and dried dirt used to provide trace elements. Fiji mud is wet mud taken from an ocean floor which also claims to provide trace elements. The latter again is wet and contains organisms. Not sure how anyone support a "fake" claim to that when some people have clearly found live worms in their batches.

 

[sfin52]

So maricle mud is just baked dirt and I need to find Fiji mud. Thanks I was looking at getting maricle mud. Where can I find some Fiji mud