Cryptic Zonal System

[VintageReefer]

I have also been kicking the idea of a cryptic fuge around for my next build. The main questions that I have not seen answered here are weather they are plumbed off the main drain or are people feeding them with a loop from the return pump? Then the other question is wether or not anyone is running a cryptic zone along with a macro refugium or is this just a redundant overkill?

My tank drains into my sump and the flow goes through the cryptic zone. I used the refugium / middle section of my sump.

I also run an algae scrubber in the same compartment. they both do different things but I want the algae growth contained. And also the light contained.

I do zero maintenance on the cryptic zone and the sump itself. Been running for 10 years. Zero cleaning / maintenance

 

[davidm777]

Welcome to the addic hobby! Fortunately for us cryptic sponges are ubuquitus and will be found in any mature reef system. Using wild or maricultured live rock is the best way to introduce them and other microbial stuff that's essential and can't be stuck in a bottle. Wild or maricultured live rock also can help spead up the "uglies", see Aquabiomics ' article. Cryptic sponges will colonize any dark areas behind rocks and sides of tanks/sump/refugiums. If you use a very sparse aquascaping I would add some rock to an unlit sump or refugium. Keep in mind sponges grow to the extent they choose to grow. As pointed out in the link Subsea posted they will shed a lot of detritus. This is celualr detritusand what surprised everyone was when it was descovered thier mitosis rate can be as fast as 8 hours. If you don't remeberyou highschool biology (I can't blame you ) with that fast a growth rate they should be able to double in size in hours, not days. One of the things we still have to unravel is what mechanisms or conditions or variable determine wether they grow or wether they shed off lots of nutrient rich cellular detritus

I got around to read the Rock Article. It reminded me a bit of BRS doing something similar. I wish on the dry rock they had follow the One and Only recipe, this is the only bacteria in a bottle that claims to use marine bacteria (instead of earth nitrifiying bacteria). Also to reduce the salinity to 15-20ppm at first just like the guy recommends to promote the "good" bacteria growth.
As far as the live rock goes.... they just say "quality live rock". I just know of 2 places to get rock here in the US. Tampa Bay and KP Aquatics, both of these have the same critizisim. They are marinecultured in the ocean but not in a reef so the biodiversity you get is not exacly what you need for the aquarium.... As far as oversea, you are just gambling since it will come just moist, not sumerged in water.
Getting live rock and setting up the cryptic zone was kind of my plan to bio-diversify my tank fast and avoid the ugly phase..... thanks for the early reality check. I guess is just a gamble and I will get what I will get. If you have any recommendations for starters, please, they are welcome!

 

[davidm777]

My tank drains into my sump and the flow goes through the cryptic zone. I used the refugium / middle section of my sump.

I also run an algae scrubber in the same compartment. they both do different things but I want the algae growth contained. And also the light contained.

I do zero maintenance on the cryptic zone and the sump itself. Been running for 10 years. Zero cleaning / maintenance

Wow.
What is your turn over rate on the main display? and what size is your sump? What algee are you using in the refugium?
Are you doing ICPs and dosing trace elments?
I like what you are doing, long term success is what I strive for. I am just trying to put 2 and 2 togeather.

 

[VintageReefer]

I got mine 10+ years ago and purchasing options were better back then.

You can buy sponge to start your cryptic zone with

 

[VintageReefer]

Wow.
What is your turn over rate on the main display? and what size is your sump? What algee are you using in the refugium?
Are you doing ICPs and dosing trace elments?
I like what you are doing, long term success is what I strive for. I am just trying to put 2 and 2 togeather.

My return pump is 1052gph, I run at 35-40%. I don’t have the head height charts to factor them in for an actual gph through the sump.

I run a surf 2 algae scrubber, also for 10 years. It grows a form of algae that resembles sea lettuce

My sump is a trigger systems Ruby 30s
25g total volume. My display is 75g

I replenish trace elements with all for reef, and i manually dose manganese because macro algae and goniopora absorb it, and I have probably 20 Goni in the tank.

I’ve never had an icp, been reefing 20+ years, never felt a need for one. Filtered tanks using this setup for 10+ years. I don’t do water changes either.

I rebooted this tank around 2 years ago because I wanted to do a lps dominant reef. I’m happy with it but missed sps, my favorite being millepora. So a few weeks ago I added some

 

[carri10]

Hi. Mine is part of my sump. My sump is 250liters with about 50 liters for the cryptic area.
In that I have a tub of miracle mud, a tub of Aquaforest Life bio (these have been in the tank since the start, so I have no comparison to tell you if they are good). I then have two layers of egg crate with rock and rubble.
I have about 3000l/hour going through that area. This is a lot - perhaps too much (60 x turnover). The flow is such that I am sure there are VERY high flow areas and some much more stagnant areas.
To date (4 months in), I have no noticeable sponge growth but a lot of organic growth that I have no idea what it is.
I run this with a macro refugium. For me, they are different things - the cryptic of for sponges and interesting stuff, the macro is to remove NO3 and PO4. I tune lights on the macro to control these, I just let the cryptic do it thing.
In terms of feeding. I do none. I turn my reefmat off every night and the secondary drain on my bean animal overflow always has some flow. Both of these provide a bypass of the filter that (I hope) get food into the sump.

I realise this might not help, but that's my situation.

 

[Subsea]

“As far as the live rock goes.... they just say "quality live rock". I just know of 2 places to get rock here in the US. Tampa Bay and KP Aquatics, both of these have the same critizisim. They are marinecultured in the ocean but not in a reef so the biodiversity you get is not exacly what you need for the aquarium.”

Add Gulf live rock to the list with Tampa Bay & KP.

Considering that these vendors started their offshore leases in 1995, I don’t share your criticism of different biodiversity between ocean & reef. To get technical, each coral colony will have its own biodiversity on the same reef.

 

[exnisstech]

My tank drains into my sump and the flow goes through the cryptic zone. I used the refugium / middle section of my sump.

I also run an algae scrubber in the same compartment. they both do different things but I want the algae growth contained. And also the light contained.

I do zero maintenance on the cryptic zone and the sump itself. Been running for 10 years. Zero cleaning / maintenance

I run mine similar on my new system. I actually got the idea from vintage reefer. It's only been 6-7 months but so far I'm happy. Most of the rock are old ocean live rock from tank tear down. I'm not into the science, I just wanted a system as simple and maintenance free as I could get it. Socks and a scrubber. I don't clean it and have never cleaned my sumps.

EDIT : Display

 

[VintageReefer]

I run mine similar on my new system. I actually got the idea from vintage reefer. It's only been 6-7 months but so far I'm happy. Most of the rock are old ocean live rock from tank tear down. I'm not into the science, I just wanted a system as simple and maintenance free as I could get it. Socks and a scrubber. I don't clean it and have never cleaned my sumps.

EDIT : Display

Tank looks amazing! Super clean.
I am convinced, after trying numerous methods over the course of many years, this exact combination is the easiest way to filter a reef.

 

[VintageReefer]

@exnisstech did the noise get better as the algae filled in?

 

[exnisstech]

Tank looks amazing! Super clean.
I am convinced, after trying numerous methods over the course of many years, this exact combination is the easiest way to filter a reef.

So far I am very happy with this method. Simple but effective. I've yet to have to clean any algae inside the DT except for cleaning the glass.

@exnisstech did the noise get better as the algae filled in?

Much better. Also the tangs are loving the algae too. I started tossing it in several times a day and they gobble it up. No more nori crumbs on the counter.

 

[davidm777]

I run mine similar on my new system. I actually got the idea from vintage reefer. It's only been 6-7 months but so far I'm happy. Most of the rock are old ocean live rock from tank tear down. I'm not into the science, I just wanted a system as simple and maintenance free as I could get it. Socks and a scrubber. I don't clean it and have never cleaned my sumps.

EDIT : Display

Very cool tank!
I am glad I was wrong about the idea of trying to clean up the byproduct of the sponges.
One added bonus I am reading from VintageReefer is not doing water changes.
I know the tank is young. As it started settling what has been you water change regime?
Also I do not see an algee refugium, is that black box an agee scruber? if it is what type of algee are you using?
I was under the impression that Chaeto was the best but Vintage Reefer uses a different kind.
Lately I been pleasently mistaken, just trying to absove all this infomation like a sponge (hahah sorry I couldn't resist).

 

[Subsea]

I don’t change water on a schedule and I don’t test water except salinity as I make up for evaporation.
Because of the high nutrient uptake of ornamental macro algae, I add liquid kelp concentrate which has 3% N. Once a year, over a three day period, I do three 50% water changes on mature display tanks.

I am a Laissez Faire reefer. As a boy of 10 years old, I fished on oil platforms and peered into the deep imagining that I was Jaques Cousteau. Then 30 years later as a Senior Subsea Engineer on dynamically positioned drill ships, I was peering into the deep from 5000’ using ROV with high resolution camer and sonar. Now at 76 years old, I am still in awe of the beauty and complexity of the coral holibiont. At my age, the more I learn, the more I realize; how little I know. While I don’t have to know the science to emulate nature, I find the science fascinating.

 

[Timfish]

I got around to read the Rock Article. . . If you have any recommendations for starters, please, they are welcome!

There is also Gulfliverock.com for maricultured live rock. As far as cultured stuff only about 2% of the stuff found on reefs can be cultured and stuck in a bottle. While it is true maricultured isn't cultured on reefs there are corals, gorgonians, coraline algae and other organisms growing on it that is found on reefs (seems a purist could argue the live rock would need to come from the same location a coral came from which if not illegal would be incredibly impractical and/or exorbantly expensive). There's also HUGE specificity depending on what benthic species are on ht erock so the critisisms for maricultured seem to me would apply to wild also depending on what specifics are being focused on. While I prefer Pacific wild rock it's much, much easier to get maricultured out of Florida and it will have the cryptic sponges that are so essential for reef ecosystems as well as other "stuff" that is helpful. As far as "unwanted" stuff showing up the vast majority of unwanted pests come from other aquarist's tanks and most of what might come in on live rock can be removed during QT. And FWIW, since the 90's I've been setting up reef systems with wild or maricultured and have been adding easy corals and fish within a day.

BRS does try to convey good info, but keep in mind their videos are also to generate sales. Here's some links by researchers about what's actually occuring with coral reefs:

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas " This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title. Used copies are available on line and it may be free to read on Internet Archive. both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC (carbon dosing) in reef ecosystems and how it can alter coral microbiomes. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems and are an excellent starting point to understand the conflicting roles of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC, aka "carbon dosing") in reef ecosystems.

Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes

Microbial view of Coral Decline

Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont

BActeria and Sponges

Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)

Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching

DNA Sequencing and the Reef Tank Microbiome

Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"

 

[exnisstech]

Very cool tank!
I am glad I was wrong about the idea of trying to clean up the byproduct of the sponges.
One added bonus I am reading from VintageReefer is not doing water changes.
I know the tank is young. As it started settling what has been you water change regime?
Also I do not see an algee refugium, is that black box an agee scruber? if it is what type of algee are you using?
I was under the impression that Chaeto was the best but Vintage Reefer uses a different kind.
Lately I been pleasently mistaken, just trying to absove all this infomation like a sponge (hahah sorry I couldn't resist).

Thanks. I'm still doing water changes but not on a schedule. I just did the math and it averages out to be about 10% monthly at this point. I'm dosing 2 part and I think @VintageReefer is using AFR which also adds trace elements. I do have another tank for SPS that I dose AFR in. The only water changes I do on that one are 2g every 10 days or so to remove the detritus that collects in one corner.
I used to run chaeto fuges but I did so more as a refugium for life forms like pods and worms to grow vs using it for nutrient reduction.
The back box is a Santa Monica surf 4 algae scrubber. To be honest I'm not sure what species the algae is that grows in there but my tangs love it. I'm curious now tho lol. I did not seed the scrubber. The algae just starts growing on its own after the scrubber has been running for a while.
I wanted to try a new method when I started this tank. The goal was to keep it simple which I think I've accomplished so far. Change the socks and clean some algae out of the scrubber. Toss in an occasional water change and I'm done.
This is what grows in the ATS.

EDIT : I have some sponges growing in the dark areas of the display also. I think that is pretty cool since 6 months ago it was sterile dry rock.

 

[VintageReefer]

lso I do not see an algee refugium, is that black box an agee scruber? if it is what type of algee are you using?
I was under the impression that Chaeto was the best but Vintage Reefer uses a different kind.

To put it simply, cheato is the most common algae used in refugiums. That does not make it the best. It’s good, it’s easy to harvest and grow and sell, it’s durable, it absorbs phosphate and nitrate. But it is not “the best” and by “best” I mean “most efficient”

Turf algae in scrubbers absorb anywhere from 5-8x the amount of phosphate compared to an equal volume of cheato. It’s a faster growing, more absorbent type of algae, and takes up less physical space than a refugium.

You cannot seed a scrubber. True Example - I have two tanks with Santa Monica scrubbers. Both use the same leds. As an experiment, I took a handful of algae from my 75g tank surf 2 scrubber, and put it in the scrubber of my 15g tank, and about a week later…it was gone. In a sealed box. With nothing to eat it. It vanished.

This is because the algae that grows in a scrubber is unique and custom to each tank. How does it get in the scrubber in the first place? Spores. Every tank has turf algae spores in it, they just lack the conditions to make it grow. Algae scrubbers incorporate high powered lighting, sometimes around 1000 par, 2” or less, from the growth surface. These leds vary by brand but the surf uses 660nm red leds, ones proven to be favorable and correct dedicated spectrum for algae growth. Scrubbers also introduce air exposure. Surfs use high power air pumps, screen scrubbers have the algae growing in open air. Different scrubbers have different methods but the all utilize the same things: proper air, flow, lighting, to give the correct conditions, to grow turf algae.

The algae that grows will be a form of turf but it’s unique to your tank. I can’t take it from one and move it to another. It rarely works. The system has to grow its own. And it will. It takes a few weeks for this to happen and for a scrubber to begin its own algae colony.

If I took the algae from my scrubber and put it in my tank directly, it would not survive. There are forms of turf algae that grow on peoples rock. It’s other species. There’s tons of algae species, you have to keep that in mind and understand that what grows in it is it’s own thing and “turf algae” is a broad term for a family of algae.

Many people with scrubbers are able to eliminate, or at least significantly reduce water changes, as long as they are replenishing trace elements, calcium and alkalinity. There’s a number of reasons for this that I won’t go into because it really is unique per each individuals system and situation.

Unless your system has extremely high nutrients, or your scrubber is undersized, you cannot run a refugium and a scrubber. The scrubber can not differentiate good algae (cheato refugium) vs bad algae…it just competes with algae outside the unit itself.

This is my refugium years ago, before I started using a scrubber. I grew Cheeto like many of you do, and I grew it well. Harvested it every week or so, sold it online to others. Did this for over a year.

Bags I would sell

My entire refugium area of my sump, was a refugium. And it wasn’t keeping up with my tanks demands for nutrient control. Helping? Yes. But it wasn’t enough for total control. I added the scrubber and once it was established, all this cheato died off. The scrubber outcompeted it. And, the scrubber proved to be enough, to meet the demands of my tank, she only took up 1/4 the space in this chamber, and I then filled that remaining space, with live rock. I no longer needed refugium lighting, so the live rock that was added, was added in darkness. And that is how my cryptic zone adventures began.

I believe the combination of the scrubber + cryptic zone of live rock and sponge, is the formula, that provides the results that exnisstech and I have. Exnisstech was starting a new tank and was interested in my methods, we communicated, and I made product suggestions based on his system size and he replicated what I’m doing, but he also uses filter socks. His results match what I predicted and speak for themself.

I don’t run a skimmer and I don’t do water changes. Running a skimmer doesn’t hurt anything in this formula, I ran one for many years. I just found that in my current system the filtration is so strong, I didn’t need the skimmer any more. I was experiencing zero to near zero phosphates and nitrates, and felt I was riding a thin line, and wanted my numbers bumped up a little.

I feel I’ve rambled, possibly drifted off topic, so I’ll stop here, and hope I addressed your questions. Feel free to ask more.

 

[mikst]

Hello all,

I am new to the reef keeping scene. I am in the process of designing the sump area for a 120g. After reading Salem's article on DOC (Disolved Organic Carbon), I been interested on the idea of a cryptic refugium.
I was recommended Steve Tyree's book "The Cryptic Zonal Systems". The book is no longer available on Steve's page. Any idea where I can get the book? Or any information on this subject. I find threads of people asking about information on R2R but no solid long articles or book recommendations other than this book.
On my search I found an interview with Steve Tyree on the R2R Youtube channel. I had no idea this channel even existed. I share the video here, in case you're interested. Please send leads on the subject my way. I am looking for more than the Reef Bum 10min video or Tang's from Tidal Gardens 6min video on the subject. Thank you.

I also have been searching for reading material, can you please link the article you refer to about salem's doc article? Thanks.

 

[mikst]

@Subsea just for you I went to the sump and took some pics

In the display, I have this sponge colony. It’s a light tan color in person. It’s approx 5” across and growing these finger like appendages

And the earlier mentioned “blue rope sponge” which is the best ID I could get. As it gets tall it buckled over and attaches to things, then forms new branches. Every few months it attaches to something like a frag shelf or rock, I just peel it off, break the excess growth off, and put in the sump. Interesting, in the cryptic zone it is more of an encruster

Absolutely amazing. I love the look of cryptic sumps. The way I'm designing mine it will be blacked out, but I also want to be able to look in from time to time.

 

[VintageReefer]

Absolutely amazing. I love the look of cryptic sumps. The way I'm designing mine it will be blacked out, but I also want to be able to look in from time to time.

I just open my cabinet doors

Check how much Sponge has grown, look for new colors and types.

I have “rehomed” a gorilla crab and later two sexy shrimp in here, never saw them again.

Also have 2 lucky chocolate chip starfish. Harlequin died. So…now I have two chocolate chip starfish :/

 

[davidm777]

There is also Gulfliverock.com for maricultured live rock. As far as cultured stuff only about 2% of the stuff found on reefs can be cultured and stuck in a bottle. While it is true maricultured isn't cultured on reefs there are corals, gorgonians, coraline algae and other organisms growing on it that is found on reefs (seems a purist could argue the live rock would need to come from the same location a coral came from which if not illegal would be incredibly impractical and/or exorbantly expensive). There's also HUGE specificity depending on what benthic species are on ht erock so the critisisms for maricultured seem to me would apply to wild also depending on what specifics are being focused on. While I prefer Pacific wild rock it's much, much easier to get maricultured out of Florida and it will have the cryptic sponges that are so essential for reef ecosystems as well as other "stuff" that is helpful. As far as "unwanted" stuff showing up the vast majority of unwanted pests come from other aquarist's tanks and most of what might come in on live rock can be removed during QT. And FWIW, since the 90's I've been setting up reef systems with wild or maricultured and have been adding easy corals and fish within a day.

BRS does try to convey good info, but keep in mind their videos are also to generate sales. Here's some links by researchers about what's actually occuring with coral reefs:

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas " This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title. Used copies are available on line and it may be free to read on Internet Archive. both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC (carbon dosing) in reef ecosystems and how it can alter coral microbiomes. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems and are an excellent starting point to understand the conflicting roles of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC, aka "carbon dosing") in reef ecosystems.

Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes

Microbial view of Coral Decline

Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont

BActeria and Sponges

Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)

Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching

DNA Sequencing and the Reef Tank Microbiome

Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"

Hey Tim,
Thanks for understanding the OBSESSION IS REAL and shooting those videos this way.
Why would you preffer Pacific live rock? I mean, I would prefer it myself but just because I am in San Diego.