Can Chloramines get past a good RO/DI

[LostInTheDark]

Well. Everything was clear a minute ago.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes there are kits for chloromines but to my understanding the amount is in trace amounts and the kits will not be able to detect it. Even though the amounts are trace it is still introduce ammonia into your tank and will continue to throw its balance off. And yes the rodi unit will remove the chloromine but please note that the life of the carbon block is cut significantly. The chloromines are an additional chemical that the carbon block is needing to filter out.

I'm not even sure where to begin. I disagree with every sentence.

I tested this rather carefully and had many others test it for this article:

Chloramine and the Reef Aquarium - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/rhf/feature/index.htm

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No DI does not remove chloromines only the carbon does. Regular carbon removes it just fine but the life of the block is cut substantially. DI only removes dissolved solids not chemicals.

I'm trying to be nice, but this is just so wrong.

DI removes charged chemicals. All charged chemicals. It actually doesn't do a good job of removing actual particulate solids, but the RO membrane prevents any of these from getting through.

 

[stunreefer]

We run the Chloraguard filters I linked on all clients systems with chloramines present in their source water. Even in my office, where we go through 300+ gallons per week, I get well over a year out of our prefilters. More here.

Perhaps Randy can shed some light on what makes one carbon more efficient at removing chloramine than another. In my experience (~3ppm Cl), standard carbon filters deplete considerably (3-4X) faster.

You can run your system a few different ways, I opt for the most affordable and easiest to maintain long term.

 

[LostInTheDark]

I tested this rather carefully and had many others test it for this article:

Chloramine and the Reef Aquarium - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/rhf/feature/index.htm

Thanks. I read through the article and it reassures me that my system is up to the task. As you can see from the conflict here its not easy for us "non" scientist to wrap our minds around some of the complexities of reef keeping and its associated tasks. Not everything is a simple yes/no, and one correct answer is hard to come by sometimes.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks. I read through the article and it reassures me that my system is up to the task. As you can see from the conflict here its not easy for us "non" scientist to wrap our minds around some of the complexities of reef keeping and its associated tasks. Not everything is a simple yes/no, and one correct answer is hard to come by sometimes.

I certainly understand, especially when manufacturers sell expensive units that may or may not be needed, but if you read their advertising, they are critical. lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

We run the Chloraguard filters I linked on all clients systems with chloramines present in their source water. Even in my office, where we go through 300+ gallons per week, I get well over a year out of our prefilters. More here.

Perhaps Randy can shed some light on what makes one carbon more efficient at removing chloramine than another. In my experience (~3ppm Cl), standard carbon filters deplete considerably (3-4X) faster.

You can run your system a few different ways, I opt for the most affordable and easiest to maintain long term.

Carbon filters break down the chloramine into ammonia and chloride. How well it does that depends on the available surface area and the exact chemical nature of the carbon surface. Special chloramine blocks has modified the carbon surface to make it more active in breaking the chloramine apart.

This article explains it more:

http://www.wqpmag.com/catalytic-carbon-chloramine-removal

 

[M3ace9]

I'm trying to be nice, but this is just so wrong.

DI removes charged chemicals. All charged chemicals. It actually doesn't do a good job of removing actual particulate solids, but the RO membrane prevents any of these from getting through.

I am only posting to share additional experiences and info. What your water source tests can be completely different from what other peoples in other cities would test as. I'm from California and here it is a know fact that chloromines are used in our water treatment plant. There are many cities where chloromines are not even used so it's a non issue.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am only posting to share additional experiences and info. What your water source tests can be completely different from what other peoples in other cities would test as. I'm from California and here it is a know fact that chloromines are used in our water treatment plant. There are many cities where chloromines are not even used so it's a non issue.

No doubt. That is why I had many people around the country test their water.

If you have not used a regular RO/DI and tested for chlorine/chloramine in the effluent, then I'm not sure how you can disagree.

 

[GoVols]

No doubt. That is why I had many people around the country test their water.

If you have not used a regular RO/DI and tested for chlorine/chloramine in the effluent, then I'm not sure how you can disagree.

Randy,
I've read that chloramine hardens and exhaust your RO membrane a lot faster. Is that a true statement?

If true, could the (FX ChloraGuard Chlorine & Chloramine Carbon Block) extend your RO membrane life if your have chloramine's in your tap water?

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/fx-chloraguard-chlorine-chloramine-carbon-block-filtrex.html

Thanks, GoVols

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy,
I've read that chloramine hardens and exhaust your RO membrane a lot faster. Is that a true statement?

If true, could the (FX ChloraGuard Chlorine & Chloramine Carbon Block) extend your RO membrane life if your have chloramine's in your tap water?

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/fx-chloraguard-chlorine-chloramine-carbon-block-filtrex.html

Thanks, GoVols

I don't know much about the specific interactions of chloramine with membranes, aside from statements that it can damage them, but the carbon block should be removing it before the membrane.

 

[TbyZ]

There certainly is conflicting information regarding RO membrane damage due to chlorine & chloramines.
I've read that chlorine is ok but chloramine is bad, & vise versa, & that chloramines are bad, but only at high pH levels (9 & above).

I decided that they are all bad.

All activated carbon converts chlorine & chloramine to chloride by electron exchange. It just takes a bit longer contact time to convert chloramines.
This electron exchange is independent of the carbons adsorbtion function, & even when the adsorption capacity is reached the carbon will continue to convert chlorine & chloramine to chloride. The exceptions being when there is channelling or total blinding of the carbon where direct contact with the carbon and chlorine is prevented.

The main purpose of the carbon filter in an RODI unit is to remove chlorine & chloramine, & organics in town water supplies are not usually an issue.

All you need to do is test the outflow water with Total Chlorine test strips to know if any chlorine & chloramine are getting through the carbon.
I tested my Town water supply yesterday & got a reading of 0.2 - 0.5 ppm.

[Catalytic Carbon
To enhance the catalytic activity (or electron exchange) of carbon, the surface is modified by a chemical process in which the electronic structure of the carbon is altered in such a manner that the resulting carbon offers enhanced catalytic capability.
As a result, the catalytic carbon produced by this method is not only rich in chemisorption, but also physisorption capacity.]

So you can use just catalytic carbon if you want.

My municiple water supply has the following levels, & I find that a 0.2 micron carbon block works fine.

...............................................ADWG* Health........ADWG* Aesthetic.............(10th – 90th percentile range)
Free chlorine.........mg/L....................5.................... 0.6 ....................................... 0.30 – 0.90
Monochloramine...mg/L....................3.................... 0.5 ....................................... 0.04 – 0.08

 

[LostInTheDark]

All you need to do is test the outflow water with Total Chlorine test strips

Are the ones they sell in apool supply adequate?

 

[TbyZ]

Are the ones they sell in apool supply adequate?

as long as they can read low enough they should be good.
as I stated, my town water supply gave me a reading of 0.2 to 0.5 ppm

When testing your tap water, you have to let the tap run a little while to get the residual reading. testing the first water that comes out of the tap may give a reading of zero.

Remember, you need a total chlorine test, not a free chlorine test. the total chlorine measures both chlorine (free chlorine) & chloramine.

 

[GoVols]

I don't know if I have choramine but in summer time TN has more Chlorine in the H2o than the H2o

 

[Bob E]

I'm not even sure where to begin. I disagree with every sentence.

I tested this rather carefully and had many others test it for this article:

Chloramine and the Reef Aquarium - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/rhf/feature/index.htm

Excellent article, everybody should take a look at it

 

[LostInTheDark]

I don't know if I have choramine but in summer time TN has more Chlorine in the H2o than the H2o

I used to live in NYC, Best water I've ever tasted. When I moved to Jersey I couldn't stand the smell of the water coming out of the tap. I now use my RO/DI for drinking water as well as the tank.

 

[jason2459]

as long as they can read low enough they should be good.
as I stated, my town water supply gave me a reading of 0.2 to 0.5 ppm

When testing your tap water, you have to let the tap run a little while to get the residual reading. testing the first water that comes out of the tap may give a reading of zero.

Remember, you need a total chlorine test, not a free chlorine test. the total chlorine measures both chlorine (free chlorine) & chloramine.

If I'm not mistaken doing both tests will help determine if you have chloramines so a free chlorine kit could be useful if you wanted to know. If the total chlorine test comes out higher then the free chlorine test then there are chloramines.

I call my water department once a year and ask if they use chloramines regularly or at anytime and if they have any plans on using them in the future. So far they have been "no", "we haven't" and "not at this time" for me. But that can always change.

 

[jason2459]

I used to live in NYC, Best water I've ever tasted. When I moved to Jersey I couldn't stand the smell of the water coming out of the tap. I now use my RO/DI for drinking water as well as the tank.

If you do that make sure to sanitize the system like once a year. Otherwise for tank use I don't know if it maters. I haven't in 8 years, I don't use it for drinking or cooking etc, but it's been recommended by RO/DI manufacturers to do so yearly even for our use on tanks.

I assume you are using a pressure tank and taken from the RO and not through the DI?
https://www.buckeyehydro.com/content/Sanitizing_With_Tank.pdf

 

[LostInTheDark]

If you do that make sure to sanitize the system like once a year. Otherwise for tank use I don't know if it maters. I haven't in 8 years, I don't use it for drinking or cooking etc, but it's been recommended by RO/DI manufacturers to do so yearly even for our use on tanks.

I assume you are using a pressure tank and taken from the RO and not through the DI?
https://www.buckeyehydro.com/content/Sanitizing_With_Tank.pdf

I have the AWI TYPHOON III EXTREME 150 which has a RO diverter going into a pressure tank hooked up to the fridge.