Bolus dosing

[MnFish1]

Am interesting observation……

FM and Reefmoonshiners advocate daily dosing of iodine.

Most others recommend at least weekly dosing which suggests fairly rapid depletion- No?!

If there is rapid depletion and IF iodine is protective from free radical damage, then highest levels at the time of highest light trauma may be beneficial?!

Just thinking out loud…..

I think you might want to make a difference between what someone advocates - as compared to their results. I do not see - on a chemistry basis' (unless its something on the cellular level) how iodine is protective from free radical damage.

 

[Mo.]

Care to elaborate? maybe that’s because FM makes a variety of different claims about what it is?

I am very reluctant to spend more and more time debunking ludicrous claims from nonscientists about detailed chemistry issues at which they have proven themselves totally unreliable.

Randy- this is frustrating.

If you had watched the videos or even looked at the products you are discrediting, you would know that the Balling light method advocates adding trace 3 solution which contains halogens.

You keep answering second hand questions based on somebody else’s interpretation of what Claude has said.


Here is an example, but this thread is full of it and it’s because you haven’t fully looked at the source first hand. This isn’t great science!


“3. I did think it was interesting, the claim the bolus style dosing created halogens that protect the corals from the high light. I'm not sure I know what that means but would love to hear from someone smarter than me.”

Randy’s response
“I dont know exactly what is meant by some of those, but for #3 I don’t see what bolus dosing has to do with any type of halogen chemistry. There are no halogens in sodium bicarbonate, nor am I aware of any relationship between alk or bicarbonate and any means of protecting corals with any halogen chemistry.”


The mistake here is that the original
Poster incorrectly assumed that halogens are created by the bolus method.

Randy then answers that question assuming that Claude has made another ludicrous statement.

In fact the original poster was mistaken in that balling light trace 3 is added to the alkalinity part of the balling light system as part of the Balling Light system and halogens are therefore dosed with it- which is different to most 2 and 3 part systems. So the halogens are dosed- they are made or “magic’d” up.

This has happened multiple times through this thread so to observers like me it’s a joke!!

And the fundamental reason is that Randy has chosen not to look at what has been proposed from the source, he is relying on second hand information……,
That’s the weak sauce!

 

[Pod_01]

Am interesting observation……

FM and Reefmoonshiners advocate daily dosing of iodine.

Most others recommend at least weekly dosing which suggests fairly rapid depletion- No?!

If there is rapid depletion and IF iodine is protective from free radical damage, then highest levels at the time of highest light trauma may be beneficial?!

Just thinking out loud…..

Yea, but it is still only observation.

There is no scientific proof of this or no one spend $$$$ to research Iodine in a reef tank.
I think reef companies should gather resources and show that Iodine is or is not beneficial. After all they all make the claim.
Otherwise this Iodine discussion is just a circular argument that leads nowhere.

As an anecdotal observation, there are some reefers that have depleted Iodine and show no issue.

All one can say is that some of us reefers observed something good is happening.
It may be related to something else, coral food/ fish food / lights etc…

Out of curiosity did you see improvements when keeping Iodine at recommended levels by FM or Moonshiners?
Claude likes Br and F as well… and has the bottles to prove it….

However, one thing does spring to mind. Claude has done icp’s on 10’s of thousands of samples for many years. Im sure he dose know a little more about reef chemistry than he is being given credit for?!

Yup he has data, but that data doesn’t make him a chemist.

He does know how to keep corals no argument there.
He can definitely provide what to do and how to keep corals, the why in some cases is not entirely believable “broken buffer system “.

Also many of the videos are infomercial, they need to be taken with grain of salt.

 

[Mo.]

I agree with you - there is no magic improvement with bolus dosing - and probably no detriment - except for an overdose (or underdose) - people have bolus dosed alkalinity and calcium for years. I'm not sure why this is a new thing.

They’re not bolus dosing calcium though right?!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No- it’s just that you didn’t watch the video which would have explained it and you wouldn’t have even needed to make that comment about halogens if
You knew what they had said about it first hand.

You keep responding to second hand interpretations of what they may have claimed to have said, which I find slightly absurd.

Don’t get me wrong. I am a casual observer, but there are a lot of misunderstandings here and many of them are because you refuse to even watch their claims first hand and even look at what their product line is.

This is not taking away your wealth of knowledge on Chemistry. A lot of us turn to you for reef chemistry., but this thread would have been much more valuable if you had watched a couple of the videos at the outset and then debunked the source, which is what I would have expected from a scientist.

I’ve actually logged in and out of this thread waiting to see your response after you’d actually watched the stream- but that never happened, yet you’re still happy to debunk second hand information.much of which is not in their literature.

I do find some of the explanations about broken buffers difficult to follow, but I think it was meant in a metaphoric manner as a simple explanation rather than scientific method., which is my interpretation of the explanation, but that has been lost in translation on this thread.

I did try the method. I quite like it. I think it does what they say. I can’t explain why.
I think it has legs. The pH effect is definitely there.

I switched back to Kalkwasser only because my auto top up broke! and 22ml/ minute all
Day of Kalkwasser covers my alk/ calcium and top off and that’s the truth…..

If you believe there is something compelling in a single video, I will try to set aside time to watch it, but it is a very poor way to actually provide information. Real scientists do not communicate by video.

Show me which exact video and which exact thing you think I am not getting from the FM document, and I’ll look it over, and comment on it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy- this is frustrating.

If you had watched the videos or even looked at the products you are discrediting, you would know that the Balling light method advocates adding trace 3 solution which contains halogens.

You keep answering second hand questions based on somebody else’s interpretation of what Claude has said.


Here is an example, but this thread is full of it and it’s because you haven’t fully looked at the source first hand. This isn’t great science!


“3. I did think it was interesting, the claim the bolus style dosing created halogens that protect the corals from the high light. I'm not sure I know what that means but would love to hear from someone smarter than me.”

Randy’s response
“I dont know exactly what is meant by some of those, but for #3 I don’t see what bolus dosing has to do with any type of halogen chemistry. There are no halogens in sodium bicarbonate, nor am I aware of any relationship between alk or bicarbonate and any means of protecting corals with any halogen chemistry.”


The mistake here is that the original
Poster incorrectly assumed that halogens are created by the bolus method.

Randy then answers that question assuming that Claude has made another ludicrous statement.

In fact the original poster was mistaken in that balling light trace 3 is added to the alkalinity part of the balling light system as part of the Balling Light system and halogens are therefore dosed with it- which is different to most 2 and 3 part systems. So the halogens are dosed- they are made or “magic’d” up.

This has happened multiple times through this thread so to observers like me it’s a joke!!

And the fundamental reason is that Randy has chosen not to look at what has been proposed from the source, he is relying on second hand information……,
That’s the weak sauce!

I’ll have to take a break from this thread. Your discounting my scientific analysis of their pdf rather than by your preferred video is odd.

 

[Mo.]

I think you missed this

No, I saw it. He read the document, but there is additional info in the videos, which any have been helpful to know. I gave one example.

 

[Mo.]

If you believe there is something compelling in a single video, I will try to set aside time to watch it, but it is a very poor way to actually provide information. Real scientists do not communicate by video.

Show me which exact video and which exact thing you think I am not getting from the FM document, and I’ll look it over, and comment on it.

That’s not my job! You don’t need to watch it, but then at least acknowledge that you’re not fully informed in this debate.

And real scientists are even communicating by Teams these days!

 

[Mo.]

I’ll have to take a break from this thread. Your discounting my scientific analysis of their pdf rather than by your preferred video is odd.

No it’s not!

I don’t doubt that you can debunk the theory, but your basing your opinion on unqualified opinions and then discrediting something that might have some mileage in it.

I’d much rather hear your thoughts after you are aware of what they are offering. It’s clear to me when I read some of your answers that you’re not fully aware of what they were proposing, just listening to unqualified reports and basing your answers on those.

That’s just not scientific.

 

[Mo.]

Yea, but it is still only observation.

There is no scientific proof of this or no one spend $$$$ to research Iodine in a reef tank.

No, you’re wrong!

There are multiple and clear benefits of having adequate iodine levels in a reef tank and it is difficult to measure iodine levels accurately even with ICP.

In my last tank- you may have seen it on Reefcentral?! I could tell you if my tank was lacking iodine just by looking at some of the corals.

Iodine is important!

 

[Mo.]

I think you might want to make a difference between what someone advocates - as compared to their results. I do not see - on a chemistry basis' (unless its something on the cellular level) how iodine is protective from free radical damage.

See above.

Iodine has clear and distinct benefits at the correct levels.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That’s not my job! You don’t need to watch it, but then at least acknowledge that you’re not fully informed in this debate.

And real scientists are even communicating by Teams these days!

Its my job to watchdog every video a company puts out to address every claim?

 

[Pod_01]

No, you’re wrong!

There are multiple and clear benefits of having adequate iodine levels in a reef tank and it is difficult to measure iodine levels accurately even with ICP.

Ok… please do explain.
As I mentioned, I am keeping eye on Iodine.
But, do show me the scientific/ scholarly articles that clearly identify all benefits corals get out of Iodine in a reef tank.

Not FM web site or other manufacturer / influencer sites that just repeats what reefers observed /stated or just general opinions.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

See above.

Iodine has clear and distinct benefits at the correct levels.

Maybe, but surely are not claiming the iodine has to be dosed at a particular time of day as opposed to just maintaining natural (or any particular) level?.

 

[areefer01]

No it’s not!

I don’t doubt that you can debunk the theory, but your basing your opinion on unqualified opinions and then discrediting something that might have some mileage in it.

I’d much rather hear your thoughts after you are aware of what they are offering. It’s clear to me when I read some of your answers that you’re not fully aware of what they were proposing, just listening to unqualified reports and basing your answers on those.

That’s just not scientific.

@Mo. maybe take a step back from the thread for a bit. I think you are taking this too personal.

As a fellow hobbyist I understand some of your frustration. I do. However I'm not sure it is your place to defend the method or the product. I would wager Fauna Marin is aware of the thread and or chatter this thread has generated. No one here prevents them from clearing up any misconceptions.

Share your experience and be done.

 

[SDchris]

I do find some of the explanations about broken buffers difficult to follow, but I think it was meant in a metaphoric manner as a simple explanation rather than scientific method

“3. I did think it was interesting, the claim the bolus style dosing created halogens that protect the corals from the high light..........." Poster incorrectly assumed that halogens are created by the bolus method.

So you read some things metaphorically and others literally!

I certainly didn't read that to literally mean halogens are "created".

I assumed it meant " how would bolus dosing change the behaviour of halogens so as they become more photo protective, over being dosed at smaller regular intervals." That seemed like a fair point to make.
Thats without making any clams about the photo protective role of halogens in general.

 

[Mo.]

Its my job to watchdog every video a company puts out to address every claim?

No- only the ones you debunk or discredit. There is no point being partially informed.

 

[Mo.]

Ok… please do explain.
As I mentioned, I am keeping eye on Iodine.
But, do show me the scientific/ scholarly articles that clearly identify all benefits corals get out of Iodine in a reef tank.

Not FM web site or other manufacturer / influencer sites that just repeats what reefers observed /stated or just general opinions.

Do your own research, like I did. It’s out there.

Then either decide if it’s important or not. You don’t have to use or measure it.

Many choose to though. There is a reason.

 

[Mo.]

Maybe, but surely are not claiming the iodine has to be dosed at a particular time of day as opposed to just maintaining natural (or any particular) level?.

Not me. But it was proposed in this method, which I found interesting.

It needed somebody brighter than me , like you, to decide if that had legs.

Part of the reason I came here…. But didn’t find what I thought I would….

 

[Mo.]

So you read some things metaphorically and others literally!

I certainly didn't read that to literally mean halogens are "created".

I assumed it meant " how would bolus dosing change the behaviour of halogens so as they become more photo protective, over being dosed at smaller regular intervals." That seemed like a fair point to make.
Thats without making any clams about the photo protective role of halogens in general.

That’s convenient, but he actually stated it and that’s how it was subsequently interpreted too.

Thats pretty obvious…..