Bolus dosing

[Mo.]

As it happens I've been monitoring the Alk on my tank (as accurately as I can with a salifert test) and it definitely consumes more at the end of the photoperiod and into the darkness, thus lowering alk. I wonder if they tried adding bicarb during these times to bolster it as it's consumed? I normally add my bit of bicarb in the morning, but going to give it the switcheroo and do it at lights down, and watch the magic happen

Clearly. Not watched the video then?

 

[Mo.]

The instructions say that the bolus dose can be added to the return pump section, manually. Tried that today (my bicarb dose makes up a tiny fraction of Alkalinity consumption). My lepto immediately spewed it's guts out. I noticed this effect years ago with mushrooms when messing with undissolved Alk additives. Annoyingly this lepto is immediately underneath where until recently (STN'd) a millepora resided. It's amazing what you can see with the lights on, back to adding my bicarb slowly.

Sounds like you just dumped a load of bicarb powder into the sump?

 

[Mo.]

I’ve watched this thread for a couple of months now……

What I find interesting is that very few want to watch the video, but everybody has an opinion on why it can’t work , but it’s clear from this thread that not many actually know what they said.

I would have at least expected Randy to have watched and then disprove the theory? Not wanting to watch videos seems a bit weak sauce to me. There is more to a debate when both sides knows what the other thinks.

Just my 2 cents from reading through….

 

[areefer01]

I’ve watched this thread for a couple of months now……

What I find interesting is that very few want to watch the video, but everybody has an opinion on why it can’t work , but it’s clear from this thread that not many actually know what they said.

I would have at least expected Randy to have watched and then disprove the theory? Not wanting to watch videos seems a bit weak sauce to me. There is more to a debate when both sides knows what the other thinks.

Just my 2 cents from reading through….

You have a valid point for most. I will go a step further and ask if this level of scrutiny is going to be done with all products with questionable marketing and/or claims? There are plenty that make some squint.

On the other hand you can't assume one needs to watch something to disprove it if their background is in chemistry. It doesn't mean all chemist are correct just as it doesn't make doctors or other professionals. Knowing how something works sometimes is all that is necessary.

It sounds like you are a user of the method which is fine. Share your experience but not sure you need to defend your choice or the method. Just my opinion.

 

[GARRIGA]

Wouldn't buffer added after lights out not stay unconsumed until lights back on which results in pH boost post photosynthesis yet obtain same affect of available alkalinity for corals at sunrise?

Not speaking to using FM but just the approach of once and done dosing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would have at least expected Randy to have watched and then disprove the theory? Not wanting to watch videos seems a bit weak sauce to me. There is more to a debate when both sides knows what the other thinks.

Just my 2 cents from reading through….

Disproved what exactly? I’m truly curious about what you think is seemingly unknown. I have read the full FM document describing the method and the results. If the video makes different claims than their own documents, that’s their problem.

We cannot get a straight answer on what is in the FM product, so commenting on it is more complicated.

We know exactly what happens when you add pure bicarbonate, carbonate and hydroxide to seawater. I have measured it and it fits known chemical science.

We also know that pH rises when alk rises, and pH rises during photosynthesis.

We also know corals grow faster at higher alk and higher pH.

If that at is the goal, then raise alk and pH. There are a multitude of ways to do that.

I believe I have debunked the “explanations” provided by FM.

I am still waiting for anyone to show alk over 24 h after bolus dosing.

Alk stability after dosing seems to be the one data claim oddity and not a single person using this method in this thread has shown their actual alk data, unless I missed it.

 

[Mo.]

You have a valid point for most. I will go a step further and ask if this level of scrutiny is going to be done with all products with questionable marketing and/or claims? There are plenty that make some squint.

On the other hand you can't assume one needs to watch something to disprove it if their background is in chemistry. It doesn't mean all chemist are correct just as it doesn't make doctors or other professionals. Knowing how something works sometimes is all that is necessary.

It sounds like you are a user of the method which is fine. Share your experience but not sure you need to defend your choice or the method. Just my opinion.

Hmm

I would suggest hearing what they suggest first hand and not from hearsay- which is what a lot of this thread has done.

There has been a lot of misunderstanding of what has been claimed with explanations given for something that wasn’t claimed.

It’s clear the videos weren’t watched and answers to hearsay given.

An example is not knowing why halogens would have been affected by dosing the FM alk solution.

Fyi- I use Kalkwasser.

Doug spoke to me about the bolus method nearly a year ago- at my house, so he knows my system. I now have a lot of experience with bolus and with Kalkwasser.

Kalkwasser is convenient for me- but I would suggest you all try bolus if you are intrigued. It does what they say, but I don’t know why.

I’m surprised after all this time very few on here have tried it….. in fact you’re more likely to an interpolation of it, which I find surprising….

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

An example is not knowing why halogens would have been affected by dosing the FM alk solution.

Care to elaborate? maybe that’s because FM makes a variety of different claims about what it is?

I am very reluctant to spend more and more time debunking ludicrous claims from nonscientists about detailed chemistry issues at which they have proven themselves totally unreliable.

 

[Mo.]

Disproved what exactly? I’m truly curious about what you think is seemingly unknown. I have read the full FM document describing the method and the results. If the video makes different claims than their own documents, that’s their problem.

We cannot get a straight answer on what is in the FM product, so commenting on it is more complicated.

We know exactly what happens when you add pure bicarbonate, carbonate and hydroxide to seawater. I have measured it and it fits known chemical science.

We also know that pH rises when alk rises, and pH rises during photosynthesis.

We also know corals grow faster at higher alk and higher pH.

If that at is the goal, then raise alk and pH. There are a multitude of ways to do that.

I believe I have debunked the “explanations” provided by FM.

I am still waiting for anyone to show alk over 24 h after bolus dosing.

Alk stability after dosing seems to be the one data claim oddity and not a single person using this method in this thread has shown their actual alk data, unless I missed it.

You haven’t seen the video

Wouldn't buffer added after lights out not stay unconsumed until lights back on which results in pH boost post photosynthesis yet obtain same affect of available alkalinity for corals at sunrise?

Not speaking to using FM but just the approach of once and done dosing.

Only if you assume there is Zero consumption at night?

 

[GARRIGA]

You haven’t seen the video

Only if you assume there is Zero consumption at night?

Excluding loss to nitrification is there consumption by corals at night? My understanding has always been no and they filter feed. Am I mistaken?

 

[twentyleagues]

You haven’t seen the video

I think you missed this

Disproved what exactly? I’m truly curious about what you think is seemingly unknown. I have read the full FM document describing the method and the results. If the video makes different claims than their own documents, that’s their problem.

We cannot get a straight answer on what is in the FM product, so commenting on it is more complicated.

We know exactly what happens when you add pure bicarbonate, carbonate and hydroxide to seawater. I have measured it and it fits known chemical science.

We also know that pH rises when alk rises, and pH rises during photosynthesis.

We also know corals grow faster at higher alk and higher pH.

If that at is the goal, then raise alk and pH. There are a multitude of ways to do that.

I believe I have debunked the “explanations” provided by FM.

I am still waiting for anyone to show alk over 24 h after bolus dosing.

Alk stability after dosing seems to be the one data claim oddity and not a single person using this method in this thread has shown their actual alk data, unless I missed it.

 

[areefer01]

I’m surprised after all this time very few on here have tried it….. in fact you’re more likely to an interpolation of it, which I find surprising….

Me? I watched the video. I've watched a few from FM. However it isn't something I'm remotely interested in trying. I've also not talked about it here as I have no experience with it.

I use a different product for my system and see no reason to change. I was merely sharing an opinion on why some may not have a need to watch the content to reply intelligently. Be it with product use, as you for example, or by education and practice in a chemistry field.

Note in my reply to you I didn't Challege your experience as that is yours.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You haven’t seen the video

You are right, I only read the detailed FM claim document, which was riddled with incorrect facts. Did you read it? Are you trying to defend it? Go for it!!!

There seem to be many videos. I do not have hours to watch every video.

 

[Pod_01]

An example is not knowing why halogens would have been affected by dosing the FM alk solution.

That has been mentioned, it is added with the Trace3 solution that is added to the Alk.
Randy did explain why dosing them in the morning makes no difference vs. dosing them in evening or any other time. Also the FM stated benefits are option/ observation, I don’t believe there is science to support it all. If there is I like to read it.
Don’t get me wrong I do like to dose Iodine, but I am basing it on my Mk1 eyeball.

I am using the BOLUS since they made the initial video.
Honestly it does take bit of will power to watch some of the FM video due to the heavy handed opinions vs. scientific facts. As an example the use of “broken buffer system “, “old tank syndrome “ etc… I can only roll my eyes so often before my brain goes numb.

Anyway some of my observations after 2 months or so. BOLUS made zero impact on my pH. Opening windows works just like before, when I close the windows pH nosedives same as before. Maybe I have broken BOLUS.
CO2 scrubber works just as well as before…

My Alk consumption went up a bit, maybe 5% at most.
Corals not much improvement, lost most of my Zoas (might be related to my filefish) others are ok. No explosion in growth, some SPS seem happy others not so much. Maybe in 5 months things will look amazing, maybe not.

Kh behaviour is odd, not sure what to make of it.

So far I like the single dose approach, fewer things to mess up.
Don’t like the peptides… still not sure what that is about and why my tank or corals needs it.

 

[Mo.]

Care to elaborate? maybe that’s because FM makes a variety of different claims about what it is?

I am very reluctant to spend more and more time debunking ludicrous claims from nonscientists about detailed chemistry issues at which they have proven themselves totally unreliable.

No- it’s just that you didn’t watch the video which would have explained it and you wouldn’t have even needed to make that comment about halogens if
You knew what they had said about it first hand.

You keep responding to second hand interpretations of what they may have claimed to have said, which I find slightly absurd.

Don’t get me wrong. I am a casual observer, but there are a lot of misunderstandings here and many of them are because you refuse to even watch their claims first hand and even look at what their product line is.

This is not taking away your wealth of knowledge on Chemistry. A lot of us turn to you for reef chemistry., but this thread would have been much more valuable if you had watched a couple of the videos at the outset and then debunked the source, which is what I would have expected from a scientist.

I’ve actually logged in and out of this thread waiting to see your response after you’d actually watched the stream- but that never happened, yet you’re still happy to debunk second hand information.much of which is not in their literature.

I do find some of the explanations about broken buffers difficult to follow, but I think it was meant in a metaphoric manner as a simple explanation rather than scientific method., which is my interpretation of the explanation, but that has been lost in translation on this thread.

I did try the method. I quite like it. I think it does what they say. I can’t explain why.
I think it has legs. The pH effect is definitely there.

I switched back to Kalkwasser only because my auto top up broke! and 22ml/ minute all
Day of Kalkwasser covers my alk/ calcium and top off and that’s the truth…..

 

[Mo.]

That has been mentioned, it is added with the Trace3 solution

Yes, but Randy didn’t know that when he commented on it, which typifies this thread. ….Many answers to question's raised by second hand observers and based on misunderstandings.

The least I was expecting is to debunk something once you have all of the info to hand.

Not doing that is not really scientific is it ?!

And to remind you. I am not affiliated. This is observation, I’m only a medical doctor, I don’t have any special skills in this area, but advanced reef topics do intrigue me.


However, one thing does spring to mind. Claude has done icp’s on 10’s of thousands of samples for many years. Im sure he dose know a little more about reef chemistry than he is being given credit for?!

Just my 2 cents of looking at this thread for a couple of months and not commenting. But nothing fruitful has really arisen in all this time….

 

[Mo.]

There seem to be many videos. I do not have hours to watch every video.

which is what makes this thread invalid.

The most knowledgable person is only prepared to read a Little of the info and not be fully informed before debunking it all as a myth.

I read about 10 pages of this thread tonight and it was all hot air and supposition.

In fact it surprised me that you couldn’t be bothered to research what it was all about…..not at all what I would call scientific method.

I only come here to learn. I specifically look you up at times to learn from you…..

 

[Mo.]

That has been mentioned, it is added with the Trace3 solution that is added to the Alk.
Randy did explain why dosing them in the morning makes no difference vs. dosing them in evening or any other time. Also the FM stated benefits are option/ observation, I don’t believe there is science to support it all. If there is I like to read it.

Am interesting observation……

FM and Reefmoonshiners advocate daily dosing of iodine.

Most others recommend at least weekly dosing which suggests fairly rapid depletion- No?!

If there is rapid depletion and IF iodine is protective from free radical damage, then highest levels at the time of highest light trauma may be beneficial?!

Just thinking out loud…..

 

[Mo.]

I am still waiting for anyone to show alk over 24 h after bolus dosing.

not watched the video/s then?!

I rest my case….

 

[MnFish1]

Hmm

I would suggest hearing what they suggest first hand and not from hearsay- which is what a lot of this thread has done.

There has been a lot of misunderstanding of what has been claimed with explanations given for something that wasn’t claimed.

It’s clear the videos weren’t watched and answers to hearsay given.

An example is not knowing why halogens would have been affected by dosing the FM alk solution.

Fyi- I use Kalkwasser.

Doug spoke to me about the bolus method nearly a year ago- at my house, so he knows my system. I now have a lot of experience with bolus and with Kalkwasser.

Kalkwasser is convenient for me- but I would suggest you all try bolus if you are intrigued. It does what they say, but I don’t know why.

I’m surprised after all this time very few on here have tried it….. in fact you’re more likely to an interpolation of it, which I find surprising….

I agree with you - there is no magic improvement with bolus dosing - and probably no detriment - except for an overdose (or underdose) - people have bolus dosed alkalinity and calcium for years. I'm not sure why this is a new thing.