Bolus dosing

[Carni_Vora]

The natural ocean doesn’t give a large bolus dose every morning. The ocean is stable.

i am sorry but I specially when it comes to alkalinity the ocean is not stable at all. Montipora, Favia, Goniopora for example can grow in river plumes where alkalinity is ranging between 500 to 3000 µmol/kg. in general surface water (200 meter and above) is many things but stable isn't one of them.

I don't think they mean alk swings when they talk about "disruption" I think they mean chemical reactions in the tank in general. But again - I have no idea about anything here. It's Bolus day 6 for me. Can't make any statement whatsoever regarding to this.

To your light question: I have no idea and it won't be any of my concern with reefleds, sorry. Also don't know if this is mentioned somewhere in detail.

 

[Reefahholic]

I need to catch up, so far I watched the initial chat between Doug and Claude. Maybe things changed since the initial video.



I can only spare so much time…

Maybe I need to re watch both since I may have misunderstood.

I haven’t watched the initial. I’ll go watch that one too.

 

[Reefahholic]

Montipora, Favia, Goniopora for example can grow in river plumes where alkalinity is ranging between 500 to 3000 µmol/kg. in general surface water (200 meter and above) is many things but stable isn't one of them.

We can’t assume the entire ocean is unstable because there are corals growing near a river mouth, or because a recent rain event triggered a flood. Yes, fluctuations are normal, but I don’t believe it’s anywhere remotely close to bolus dosing the entire alkalinity demand in a day before the sun rises. Sure, coral can adapt to many different conditions, but is it ideal for growth?

I don't think they mean alk swings when they talk about "disruption" I think they mean chemical reactions in the tank in general.

A Bolus dose of Balling Light (Sodium Bicarbonate) isn’t a huge chemical reaction?

 

[Carni_Vora]

We can’t assume the entire ocean is unstable because there are corals growing near a river mouth, or because a recent rain event triggered a flood. Yes, fluctuations are normal, but I don’t believe it’s anywhere remotely close to bolus dosing the entire alkalinity demand in a day before the sun rises. Sure, coral can adapt to many different conditions, but is it ideal for growth?



A Bolus dose of Balling Light (Sodium Bicarbonate) isn’t a huge chemical reaction?

It is but more focused apparently. Again I don't know but as everyone is throwing theories around, I thought I'd join to.

The "entire ocean" has nothing to do with the surface water are in reefs where majority of corals grow.

 

[Welsh Reefer.]

We can’t assume the entire ocean is unstable because there are corals growing near a river mouth, or because a recent rain event triggered a flood. Yes, fluctuations are normal, but I don’t believe it’s anywhere remotely close to bolus dosing the entire alkalinity demand in a day before the sun rises. Sure, coral can adapt to many different conditions, but is it ideal for growth?



A Bolus dose of Balling Light (Sodium Bicarbonate) isn’t a huge chemical reaction?

Don't forget, we have reef tanks, which are nothing like the ocean in many aspects so to compare the two makes little sense in some areas.

I believe they're aiming at it being better for overall 'stability' to have that one alk dose and allow the buffer system to do it's job through the following 23.5hrs uninterrupted than drip feed alk and have lots of mini adjustments over 24hrs. I can see how Dougs words can be misinterpreted but this was my take/understanding, however I had this explained to me (by Doug) long before all this came out so I can't view these vids with virgin eyes/ears as such! I can see where confusion arises and also how this feels like new territory to a great many reefers.

 

[Garf]

Don't forget, we have reef tanks, which are nothing like the ocean in many aspects so to compare the two makes little sense in some areas.

I believe they're aiming at it being better for overall 'stability' to have that one alk dose and allow the buffer system to do it's job through the following 23.5hrs uninterrupted than drip feed alk and have lots of mini adjustments over 24hrs. I can see how Dougs words can be misinterpreted but this was my take/understanding, however I had this explained to me (by Doug) long before all this came out so I can't view these vids with virgin eyes/ears as such! I can see where confusion arises and also how this feels like new territory to a great many reefers.

Did you add your normal grocery bicarb today? Interesting to see if it all shows up on your alk tests. Cheers

 

[Reefahholic]

It is but more focused apparently. Again I don't know but as everyone is throwing theories around, I thought I'd join to.

The "entire ocean" has nothing to do with the surface water are in reefs where majority of corals grow.

How much does the pH vary in indo on a coral reef? What about Alk deviation? I bet it’s less than the Bolus dose.

 

[ReneReef]

I believe the reference is made to the trace elements that are part of the KH / Alk dosing. Or to be clear it is the Trace 3 that is added to KH component of FM Balling light system.

I am quite sure there is bicarbonate in FM KH mix. I baked it and it did provide the pH boost as explained by Randy. But re-reading Randy’s post 129 maybe I imagined things.
Anyways here is pH reading of FM Balling Light KH solution:

Held it in the container for 5 minutes.

As an aside I also had the impression that Balling method KH component always was a mix of Bicarbonate and carbonate. The actual ratio is not stated but it is a mix.

Reading this thread I am confused with the pH, I always had the impression that if we add extra Alk, pH will increase. So if you dose 1dKh and go from 7dkh to 8dkh that would increase pH. I guess I need to re-read the Alk additives/ back to school for me.

The pH of 8.7 got me thinking. So I had a rummage through my cabinets today.
Found some carbonate and bicarbonate.
Mixed 100 grams/L of each.

As expected:
Bicarb: pH 8.1
Carbonate: ~10

I remembered I once figured out the mixing ratio of carbonate and bicarbonate in the Tropic Marin original Balling B component. 19% carbonate. So I also mixed 19 grams/L carbonate with 81 grams of bicarbonate in 1 Liter. Low and behold, that solution had a pH of 8.7...
Alas, I couldn't find any Original Balling B to verify.

Could be coincidence, could be not.
The KH content of that mix would be 3700 KH/L instead of 5000. 26% difference.

 

[SliceGolfer]

If folks have such solutions, the pH will help confirm what it is. Sodium bicarbonate will have pH between 8 and 9. Sodium carbonate will have a pH above 11.

Unrelated to bolus dosing but relevant to this post from Randy - If the pH of the solution is between 9 and 11 (9.84), can one assume it is a mix of carbonate/bicarbonate?

 

[Welsh Reefer.]

Did you add your normal grocery bicarb today? Interesting to see if it all shows up on your alk tests. Cheers

Not yet! Away with work, hoping to be home before Friday with a bit of luck

 

[Reefahholic]

I believe they're aiming at it being better for overall 'stability' to have that one alk dose and allow the buffer system to do it's job through the following 23.5hrs uninterrupted than drip feed alk and have lots of mini adjustments over 24hrs.

I still do not understand how a massive Alk spike is more stable than micro dosing all day.

Which is more stable for a system. A 100% water change in one day or 1/G daily?

Would you rather be smacked in the face with a baseball bat once, or very gently tickled with a feather multiple times? HeHe.

 

[Welsh Reefer.]

I still do not understand how a massive Alk spike is more stable than micro dosing all day.

Which is more stable for a system. A 100% water change in one day or 1/G daily?

Would you rather be smacked in the face with a baseball bat once, or very gently tickled with a feather multiple times? HeHe.

That's not a great example, with a 100% water change, you get potentially massive element swings, stop seeing alk as an element. As far as I understand alk is a measure of the acid buffering capacity of water?

 

[elysics]

Which is more stable for a system. A 100% water
Would you rather be smacked in the face with a baseball bat once, or very gently tickled with a feather multiple times? HeHe.

If the baseball bat doesn't leave any pain or damage after an hour, then maybe you wouldn't prefer that over constant tickling, but your employer would. Because with the tickling you won't get any work done all day.

That's the hypothetical, that any spike disturbs the biological processes and how large they are is of smaller importance than how often.


How true that is, who knows.

 

[Reefahholic]

That's not a great example, with a 100% water change, you get potentially massive element swings, stop seeing alk as an element. As far as I understand alk is a measure of the acid buffering capacity of water?

Let me ask the question this way. At what dKH deviation do we consider to be dangerous for coral? This is a hypothetical, but do we stop the swing at 2, 5, 10…dKH? I’ve seen a couple Alk swings of 2-3 dKH that nuked systems, especially with products that had trace elements in the bottle or the chemistry was weak. A system will take a larger swing a few times, but depending on the chemistry and biomass I don’t think it’s a good idea for every reefer to try. Some systems have a massive biomass and alk demand. Where do we draw the line? When does a bolus become a dangerous idea? Or when does it stop fundamental cell function or biochemical pathways? How are the microbes responding?

 

[Garf]

I still do not understand how a massive Alk spike is more stable than micro dosing all day.

Well that's part of the conundrum, all of the alk doesn't show up on alk tests when using Fauna Marins Double potency bicarb.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It is but more focused apparently. Again I don't know but as everyone is throwing theories around, I thought I'd join to.

The "entire ocean" has nothing to do with the surface water are in reefs where majority of corals grow.

What is the evidence of unstable alkalinity near reefs (not by fresh water sources)?

 

[Reefahholic]

What is the evidence of unstable alkalinity near reefs (not by fresh water sources)?

Chris Meckley got some divers to test the pH at the reefs where they were collecting the corals. He said it was basically 8.3 almost consistently. I’d imagine alkalinity doesn’t swing by much. Just a guess though. I’m sure it does during abnormal weather events, but I’d assume the majority of the time it’s stable.

 

[reef_ranch]

What is the evidence of unstable alkalinity near reefs (not by fresh water sources)?

I thought this was an interesting read: https://sci-hub.scrongyao.com/10.1016/j.ecss.2018.04.041

 

[Carni_Vora]

What is the evidence of unstable alkalinity near reefs (not by fresh water sources)?

I don't claim I am a reef chemist or whatever and I mentioned specifically places with river input. Here are some points that influence alkalinity in the water, if you have scientific proof against all of them, go ahead.



1. Biological Activity:
• Photosynthesis: During photosynthesis, phytoplankton consume carbon dioxide, which can increase alkalinity.
• Respiration and Decomposition: The respiration of organisms and the decomposition of organic matter produce carbon dioxide, which can decrease alkalinity.
2. Freshwater Input:
• River Discharge: Rivers bring freshwater into the ocean, which typically has lower alkalinity compared to seawater. This influx can dilute ocean water, reducing its alkalinity.
• Precipitation: Rainwater, which has low alkalinity, can decrease surface water alkalinity, especially during heavy rainfall events.
3. Ocean Mixing and Currents:
• Upwelling: Upwelling brings deep, nutrient-rich, and often more alkaline waters to the surface, which can increase surface water alkalinity.
• Downwelling: Downwelling can move surface waters, along with their characteristics, deeper into the ocean.
4. Seasonal Variations:
• Seasonal changes in temperature, biological productivity, and mixing processes can cause periodic fluctuations in surface water alkalinity.

Human Influences:

1. Pollution:
• Agricultural Runoff: Nutrients from fertilizers can lead to algal blooms. When these blooms decompose, they can alter the chemical composition of the water, affecting alkalinity.
• Industrial Discharges: Wastewater from industrial processes can introduce chemicals that alter the alkalinity of coastal waters.
2. Climate Change:
• Ocean Acidification: Increased atmospheric CO2 levels lead to higher CO2 concentrations in seawater, which can decrease alkalinity by forming carbonic acid and altering carbonate chemistry.
• Changes in Precipitation Patterns: Climate change can affect the amount and distribution of rainfall, influencing freshwater input into the ocean.
3. Land Use Changes:
• Deforestation and Urbanization: These activities can increase the amount of sediment and nutrients entering the ocean, affecting coastal water chemistry and alkalinity.

Implications of Alkalinity Variability:

• Carbonate Chemistry: Fluctuations in alkalinity affect the carbonate system, influencing the saturation states of calcium carbonate minerals, which are crucial for the health of calcifying organisms such as corals and shellfish.
• Buffering Capacity: Changes in alkalinity alter the ocean’s ability to buffer against pH changes, impacting overall marine ecosystem resilience to ocean acidification.
• Ecosystem Health: Variations in alkalinity can affect the distribution and health of marine organisms, particularly those sensitive to changes in water chemistry.

Surface ocean water alkalinity is influenced by a range of natural processes and human activities that can cause significant variability. These fluctuations have important implications for marine chemistry, ecosystem health, and the ocean’s capacity to buffer against pH changes.

 

[Garf]

Variations in alkalinity can affect the distribution and health of marine organisms, particularly those sensitive to changes in water chemistry.

These fluctuations have important implications for marine chemistry, ecosystem health

AI ?