Bolus dosing

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So is this a change of position from the 'every reefer knows that dosing bicarbonate does not increase pH' statement you'd made previously?

Are you being sarcastic?

Every reefer knows (or can test) that when first added, bicarbonate lowers pH. I tested it and published it long ago.

Every reefer knows or should know that seawater that is in equilibrium with air has a pH that only depends on the alk. Higher alk leads to higher pH. That is both well established chemical theory and I also measured it and published the data years ago.

Both of these effects were posted by me early in this thread, along with the exact data.

In summary:

1. When first added:

Bicarbonate lowers pH
Carbonate raises pH
Hydroxide raises pH about twice as much as carbonate

2. When that water begins to equilibrate with the air, the pH move in the direction of what it would have with full equilibration.

3. Tank water dies not stay in equilibrium with the air, and equilibrates fairly slowly, hence the reason that the nature of the alk additive can impact pH at all.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

See post 93 in this thread for the data:

Bolus dosing

Back on the hypothesized mechanism for any perceived benefit, I'll focus on this comment from the document I posted: Using Fauna Marin Balling Light carbonate, it is possible to raise the pH substantially just before the start of the photoperiod by dosing the entire daily requirement in one...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Garf]

If Welsh Reefer changes two variables ( bicarb/fauna carbonate and the quantity ) isn't that going to make it harder to draw any conclusions ?

Probably but I don't think it's a race, lol. There are some contradictions in the HTU that trouble me. Such as not increasing the bolus dose too much each day (they recommend 2%) but that in some tanks, alkalinity consumption increases by 400% in say 35 days. This appears unrealistic but I'm open to evidence. The changing ratios of dosing mag and calcium compared to alkalinity are also odd.

 

[Carni_Vora]

That is not correct.

So Wikipedia as a source here is basically wrong?

"As a unit 1 dKH is the same as 1 °dH which is equal to approximately 0.1786 mmol/L"

 

[Carni_Vora]

Noting uses and sources of alk does not imply it is unstable. There are many sources and sinks for O2 in air, but the O2 level is stable.

You also have many misunderstandings of what impacts alk.

Photosynthesis has zero impact on alkalinity. Adding or removing CO2 cannot impact alkalinity.

Algal blooms and deaths do not significantly impact alk.

So this scientifical research paper is wrong as well?

Frontiers | CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering and Ocean Alkalinity Enhancement: Potential Risks and Co-benefits for Marine Pelagic Ecosystems

Humankind will need to remove hundreds of gigatons of carbon dioxide (CO2) from the atmosphere by the end of the twenty-first century to keep global warming ...

www.frontiersin.org

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So Wikipedia as a source here is basically wrong?

"As a unit 1 dKH is the same as 1 °dH which is equal to approximately 0.1786 mmol/L"

No, it is your misinterpretation of it that is wrong. You missed part of the quote:

dKH - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

As a unit 1 dKH is the same as 1 °dH which is equal to approximately 0.1786 mmol/L or 17.86 milligrams (mg) of calcium carbonate per litre of water, i.e. 17.86 ppm.

Calcium carbonate has 2 moles of alk per mole of calcium carbonate. Thus, your values were off by a factor of 2.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So this scientifical research paper is wrong as well?

Frontiers | CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering and Ocean Alkalinity Enhancement: Potential Risks and Co-benefits for Marine Pelagic Ecosystems

Humankind will need to remove hundreds of gigatons of carbon dioxide (CO2) from the atmosphere by the end of the twenty-first century to keep global warming ...

www.frontiersin.org

No, it is misapplication of it to what I said that is wrong. Obviously dissolution of minerals can boost alk. I said that alk may vary near a river.

 

[Garf]

So this scientifical research paper is wrong as well?

Frontiers | CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering and Ocean Alkalinity Enhancement: Potential Risks and Co-benefits for Marine Pelagic Ecosystems

Humankind will need to remove hundreds of gigatons of carbon dioxide (CO2) from the atmosphere by the end of the twenty-first century to keep global warming ...

www.frontiersin.org

Can you highlight the part you are referring to please. Looks like they are contemplating ditching kalk into the ocean to create a CO2 gradient which deters algal growth whilst sucking CO2 from the air.

Someone better warn them that they will have an ocean crash, lol.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can you highlight the part you are referring to please. Looks like they are contemplating ditching kalk into the ocean to create a CO2 gradient which deters algal growth whilst sucking CO2 from the air.

Someone better warn them that they will have an ocean crash, lol.

Old ocean syndrome. lol

 

[Garf]

Old ocean syndrome. lol

The answer is clear, dose Fauna Marin "bicarb" 10 to 30 minutes before the sun comes up. Claude may need a bigger factory, lol.

 

[MichaelM]

Good to see despite this you are seeing good results, did you test alk any more throughout the photo period, assume you don't have an auto tester?

Did that today:

Estimated error on both values is 0.1. The pH is a simple indicator drip test (no electronic probe). The bolus is dosed at 7:30am, lights come on at 8am and are set to the highest output the light can offer for 30min and then another 6:30h for 90% ramping down to 0 until 7pm for a 11h photo period.

Would be interested if you have dKH and pH measurements at the same times when using FM's carbonate mix to compare with the pure bicarbonate.

I did never use the mix and do not have it at home. I am using the Traces 3 though. They are adjusted to the weaker potency (by a factor of ~1.9).

Compared to what method used previously?

Did you note the pH right after dosing?

Previously I was dosing the same amount spread out over 4 doses every 6 hours.
I did not test pH directly after dosing, only 20min after the bolus.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Previously I was dosing the same amount spread out over 4 doses every 6 hours.
I did not test pH directly after dosing, only 20min after the bolus.

Thanks. Same amount of the same product?

 

[carbl]

The Balling Light manual states to dissolve 100 grams of "KH-powder" per liter to form the dosing solution.
It also states that 10mL of that solution would increase the KH of 100 Liter by about 0.5. Meaning that the solution would need to contain about 5000 KH/L.

I would like to come back to the calculation of the dkH of faunamarin carbonate mix.
If the statement above is correct, how do you arrive at 5000 kH in one liter? If you were to take 100g of pure bicarbonate per liter, you would only get 3340 kH.
The product is called Carbonate mix, so nowhere is it claimed to be pure biocarbonate.
However, the promised quantity must come from somewhere. I'm not at all familiar with it, but would a mixture of bicarbonate and another form be possible to achieve the 5000 kH/l?

greetings

Tom

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would like to come back to the calculation of the dkH of faunamarin carbonate mix.
If the statement above is correct, how do you arrive at 5000 kH in one liter? If you were to take 100g of pure bicarbonate per liter, you would only get 3340 kH.
The product is called Carbonate mix, so nowhere is it claimed to be pure biocarbonate.
However, the promised quantity must come from somewhere. I'm not at all familiar with it, but would a mixture of bicarbonate and another form be possible to achieve the 5000 kH/l?

greetings

Tom

Folks have reported that FM claims it is bicarbonate only in videos and such. The dry mix directions clearly show that it is not just sodium bicarbonate. Other documents note secret ingredients, so there's a whole lot of confusion about what the FM product actually is.

 

[ReneReef]

I would like to come back to the calculation of the dkH of faunamarin carbonate mix.
If the statement above is correct, how do you arrive at 5000 kH in one liter? If you were to take 100g of pure bicarbonate per liter, you would only get 3340 kH.
The product is called Carbonate mix, so nowhere is it claimed to be pure biocarbonate.
However, the promised quantity must come from somewhere. I'm not at all familiar with it, but would a mixture of bicarbonate and another form be possible to achieve the 5000 kH/l?

greetings

Tom

I agree with you, therefore I think you misread my post.

As RHF refers to, in several media Fauna Marin make the following claims:
- the carbonate mix is bicarbonate only
- it used to be a mix, but it is not a mix anymore
- it contains a peptide that increases solubility of bicarbonate
- carbonate and hydroxide are bad

In my post I state that I assumed the claims to be true and therefore that the only way for them to be true the KH concentration in the manual must be wrong.

This is merely an alternative hypothesis to the hypothesis that assumes the carbonate mix does not contain bicarbonate only. Several of us are now trying to confirm or refute these hypothesis. Even both could be true, it could be a mix and the number could be wrong at the same time.

P.S. my hypothesis does not reflect my opinion or what I wish to be true.

 

[carbl]

Other documents note secret ingredients, so there's a whole lot of confusion about what the FM product actually is.

Many companies do not reveal what and how much is contained in their products. That's okay too.
My question may be stupid, but I have no idea about chemistry. There are kH concentrates in liquid form that contain considerably more kH/l. My question was aimed at whether there are other substances that “contain considerably more kh” (sorry I can't put it any other way) apart from the usual substances that are used.
The concentrates have to be produced somehow and I assume that water + some substances are mixed in the same way.
Hence the thought of whether faunamarin has some substance in the carbonate mix that is responsible for the high kh content in addition to bicarbonate.
This is probably nonsense, otherwise all manufacturers would do it...

 

[Yazannreef]

So I have been testing this method for last few day. I actually went and purchased fauna marin ballin( started with aquaforest ballin first) to just make sure I get this right and figure our if some of thier claimed are true.

I dosee 80ml for this stuff for .75dkh gain in a day as instructed in the morning at 8:30am and light on on blast at 9am

Here is what I noticed so far:

1- DKH does stay stable in 24h mark for sure. I tested dkh at peak photoperiod and it stayed at around 8.35dkh after 24h period.
Tested dkh right after the bolus dose and it measured 8.7dkh for few days I tested it.

2- this method doesn't do jack **** for pH. If anything my pH went down hill from what I'm used to before. Now my lows are at 7.8 and highs at 8.1dkh. Night time drop is severe and I don't think it's accounted for at all with this method ( I used to dose kalk at night to hold pH at 8.


I will continue to test day by day as they claim that the pH gain happens gradually over few weeks( I doubt it really based on what I'm seeing)

My corals are looking exact same as before this method so nothing to report here as far as growth or color

 

[ReneReef]

Many companies do not reveal what and how much is contained in their products. That's okay too.
My question may be stupid, but I have no idea about chemistry. There are kH concentrates in liquid form that contain considerably more kH/l. My question was aimed at whether there are other substances that “contain considerably more kh” (sorry I can't put it any other way) apart from the usual substances that are used.
The concentrates have to be produced somehow and I assume that water + some substances are mixed in the same way.
Hence the thought of whether faunamarin has some substance in the carbonate mix that is responsible for the high kh content in addition to bicarbonate.
This is probably nonsense, otherwise all manufacturers would do it...

There are very few decently soluble sources of carbonate.
Even fewer suited for use in dosing products.

Quite a few manufacturers have products with similar KH concentrations.
Coincidence?

Triton is 10,000 KH per liter as a set. However, the 3a and 3b bottles are both KH. Each is 5000 KH/L.
The original Modern Reef RKS, also 2 times 5000 KH/L.
Both product lines increase pH. Triton can now be mixed at home in 4 or 2 bottles. Almost certainly they solely use sodium carbonate.

Triton when mixed in 2 bottles in stead of 4 - 10,000 KH/L
Modern Reef 7x7 - 10,000 KH/L
ATI essentials+ - 10,000 KH/L
Reef zlements - 10,000 KH/L
Oceamo DUO - guess what... yes, 10,000 KH/L again.

Do you see a pattern emerging?

The solubility of sodium carbonate just below room temp is ~190 grams/L. That equals 10.000 KH/L.
A lot of people report receiving the bottles with precipitates in the KH component after shipping or storing them in an unheated room/garage....

Manufacturers just try to make us think the world is more complicated than it is.
A lot of "methods" are invented put together and marketed by hobbyist or people in the industry with no back ground in chemistry. If they can do that, anybody can.

In my opinion, the bolus method is actually an interesting and creative new way of dosing. I would applaud that. Its way more original then another Triton clone. However, they shot themselves in the food with all the ridiculous and unsubstantiated claims and explanations. Not to forget all the fallacies they use in their online cognitive bias riddled "discussions".

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Many companies do not reveal what and how much is contained in their products. That's okay too.
My question may be stupid, but I have no idea about chemistry. There are kH concentrates in liquid form that contain considerably more kH/l. My question was aimed at whether there are other substances that “contain considerably more kh” (sorry I can't put it any other way) apart from the usual substances that are used.
The concentrates have to be produced somehow and I assume that water + some substances are mixed in the same way.
Hence the thought of whether faunamarin has some substance in the carbonate mix that is responsible for the high kh content in addition to bicarbonate.
This is probably nonsense, otherwise all manufacturers would do it...

Yes, I understand companies sometimes keep ingredients secret. That leaves open a huge source of abuse for bogus claims.

In general, I do not advise people to use any product that either does not list ingredients or that provides a convincing story why the product would do what is claimed.

Seachem Prime is a poster child for this concern.

As to alk products, carbonate is much more soluble than us bicarbonate, and hydroxide is even more so. Thus they can be more potent. Formate as in AFR is also very soluble.

 

[carbl]

The solubility of sodium carbonate just below room temp is ~190 grams/L. That equals 10.000 KH/L.

As to alk products, carbonate is much more soluble than us bicarbonate, and hydroxide is even more so. Thus they can be more potent.

Ok, got it! I could have looked it up myself, but somehow I had in mind that sodium carbonate does not provide the high amounts of kH despite better solubility. Sorry!

In general, I do not advise people to use any product that either does not list ingredients or that provides a convincing story why the product would do what is claimed.

Seachem Prime is a poster child for this concern.

In Germany, Tropic Marin is one of the few examples. Hans-Werner has even published the formula for its trace elements, i.e. you know exactly which trace element is contained and in what quantity.
This is of course good for us users, but there is also a lot of copying. And it's probably not all that complicated. In this respect, I can understand why it is important to remain somewhat secretive.
However, leading people around by the nose with half-truths and false claims is something else...