Bolus dosing

[ReneReef]

Hi, yes my first post, sorry for the lack of a proper introduction...
This whole peptide thing that makes bicarb disappear finally got me to pitch in.

In short: my name is René, I live in The Netherlands, been in the hobby for 16 years now, just started my third tank, after two 55 gallon ones now finally a proper 225 gallon system.

I have another simple theory about the disappearing carbonates and its much like the explanation of a magic trick:
They were never there to begin with.

- I'm assuming that the statement by FM that there is only bicarbonate in their KH mix is true.

- As shown in this topic the pH of the FM KH solution is 8.7. Suggestive of bicarbonate, although a bit high.

- The Balling Light manual states to dissolve 100 grams of "KH-powder" per liter to form the dosing solution.
It also states that 10mL of that solution would increase the KH of 100 Liter by about 0.5. Meaning that the solution would need to contain about 5000 KH/L.

- If a peptide was added to increase the solubility, then to achieve 5000 KH/L one would need to dissolve about 150 grams of sodium bicarbonate per liter. Unless this mystery peptide makes mass disappear or the bicarb is not actually bicarb...

- All users report that a similar proportion of the KH dosed in the bolus does not turn up in the tank. Almost half the dose is unaccounted for.

- 100 grams of sodium bicarbonate contains about 3340 KH. The solubility of sodium bicarbonate at 20 C is 96 grams/L, what would be about 3200 KH/L.

- 3200/5000 = 0,64 (almost half).

So, if it really is bicarbonate, then maybe the numbers in the manual are just simply wrong.

Only problem, this does not explain the results of the test done by Welsch Reefer.

 

[Welsh Reefer.]

Hi, yes my first post, sorry for the lack of a proper introduction...
This whole peptide thing that makes bicarb disappear finally got me to pitch in.

In short: my name is René, I live in The Netherlands, been in the hobby for 16 years now, just started my third tank, after two 55 gallon ones now finally a proper 225 gallon system.

I have another simple theory about the disappearing carbonates and its much like the explanation of a magic trick:
They were never there to begin with.

- I'm assuming that the statement by FM that there is only bicarbonate in their KH mix is true.

- As shown in this topic the pH of the FM KH solution is 8.7. Suggestive of bicarbonate, although a bit high.

- The Balling Light manual states to dissolve 100 grams of "KH-powder" per liter to form the dosing solution.
It also states that 10mL of that solution would increase the KH of 100 Liter by about 0.5. Meaning that the solution would need to contain about 5000 KH/L.

- If a peptide was added to increase the solubility, then to achieve 5000 KH/L one would need to dissolve about 150 grams of sodium bicarbonate per liter. Unless this mystery peptide makes mass disappear or the bicarb is not actually bicarb...

- All users report that a similar proportion of the KH dosed in the bolus does not turn up in the tank. Almost half the dose is unaccounted for.

- 100 grams of sodium bicarbonate contains about 3340 KH. The solubility of sodium bicarbonate at 20 C is 96 grams/L, what would be about 3200 KH/L.

- 3200/5000 = 0,64 (almost half).

So, if it really is bicarbonate, then maybe the numbers in the manual are just simply wrong.

Only problem, this does not explain the results of the test done by Welsch Reefer.

Let's see how sodium bicarbonate from the baking cupboard does in my test soon, wife is picking up a sealed tub of it tomorrow whilst I'm away in order to rule out contamination from previous use.

There's absolutely a trade secret of sorts at play in the solubility of Balling Light, but it's a complete b*stard to mix up, which I believe a carbonate is not?

@Randy Holmes-Farley am I correct that 16.2 grams will raise dkh by 2 in 270ltrs? Also to answer your previous post I missed: pH gain I see before lights on is around 0.5-0.8 6 minutes post-bolus dose (ghl only time stamps every 3 minutes), so that's 24 minutes before lights up at 11:00am - it holds flat until lights on and photoperiod begins.

 

[Pod_01]

Let's see how sodium bicarbonate from the baking cupboard does in my test soon, wife is picking up a sealed tub of it tomorrow whilst I'm away in order to rule out contamination from previous use.

There's absolutely a trade secret of sorts at play in the solubility of Balling Light, but it's a complete b*stard to mix up, which I believe a carbonate is not?

@Randy Holmes-Farley am I correct that 16.2 grams will raise dkh by 2 in 270ltrs? Also to answer your previous post I missed: pH gain I see before lights on is around 0.5-0.8 6 minutes post-bolus dose (ghl only time stamps every 3 minutes), so that's 24 minutes before lights up at 11:00am - it holds flat until lights on and photoperiod begins.

Out of curiosity, are you dosing close to the probe?
That is why I don’t show any pH plots, I do dose in the same compartment hence I don’t trust it to show any pH trends when dosing.

 

[Welsh Reefer.]

Out of curiosity, are you dosing close to the probe?
That is why I don’t show any pH plots, I do dose in the same compartment hence I don’t trust it to show any pH trends when dosing.

No, I dose direct into return pump section above the pump itself, pH probe is in main sump section nearer the inlet of the sump

 

[Garf]

pH gain I see before lights on is around 0.5-0.8

Do you mean 0.05 to 0.08? I think so, looking at your chart, in which case is minimal and maybe just the effect I've previously mentioned with increased alkalinity.

 

[Reefahholic]

I am shocked that a company puts out such utterly and grossly incorrect ideas. They need to send someone at the company to study chemistry before spouting nonsense.

I’m on a phone now and it’s hard to write long passages, but surely such misleading info deserves a long and detailed response.

Constant depletion of the carbonic acid pool by regular dosing of high pH solutions will cumulatively reduce the amount of carbonic acid available to the buffer system and cause instability in the equilibrium, causing constant re-balancing. Ultimately the buffer system fails to perform the task of absorbing changes in pH leading to, in extreme cases, a pH crash and often tank failure.

I have to agree with Randy here. Why not remove/limit the carbonic acid that drives down pH.? I’ve been doing that for 2 years in this system, and my corals are growing and look decent. No pH crash yet. Why would the pH crash? How would removing carbonic acid cause a tank failure?

 

[Reefahholic]

The question is does it work. A lot of people in germany tested this method and it does. You can see it by going in to german forums or just in the yt comment section of the videos from fm. not everybody uses dosing pumps. there are people that dose once a day by hand. one of the biggest public reef tanks in germany is dosing kh only once in the morning since 7 years and they have phenomal growth. its the nature museum in karlsruhe. there are many videos on yt where you can see their reef progessing. so imho its a nother discussion should it work, because it does. before attacking the idea maybee give it a chance instead of stating it shouldnt work because xyz.

The natural ocean doesn’t give a large bolus dose every morning. The ocean is stable.

 

[Reefahholic]

1 hour after dosing my dkh is 7.5, 24 hours later my DKH IS STILL 7.5 just before the next dose!!

What is your dKH just before the 160mL bolus?

160mL of which 2-part? meq/L potency?

 

[Reefahholic]

I didn't try it as I said later. He also said in the video if you cant/don't want to increase light, it is OK as well.

How much % are they increasing the light by? Which channels? Overall intensity?

 

[Welsh Reefer.]

Do you mean 0.05 to 0.08? I think so, looking at your chart, in which case is minimal and maybe just the effect I've previously mentioned with increased alkalinity.

Yes I do, apologies! I'll edit now to ensure thread remains accurate.

Have seen cases of up to a 0.15 pH increase posted by others, unsure how much alk would have to increase to cause that much of a spike if that's the cause.

 

[Welsh Reefer.]

What is your dKH just before the 160mL bolus?

160mL of which 2-part? meq/L potency?

If it helps to answer this, my night time peak pH dKH was 8.6 last night and was 8.5 this morning just before Bolus dose.

 

[Reefahholic]

If it helps to answer this, my night time peak pH dKH was 8.6 last night and was 8.5 this morning just before Bolus dose.

So you only have a deviation of 0.1 dKH from day to night.

What about pH units pre and post bolus? How much of a deviation?

 

[Welsh Reefer.]

So you only have a deviation of 0.1 dKH from day to night.

What about pH units pre and post bolus? How much of a deviation?

I don't know how long post bolus you mean, but my lowest point which is just before Bolus is around 8.1 and the peak pH is ~8.5ish

Previously when dosing balling light over 23hrs if see 7.8-8.1 as a daily swing.

 

[Garf]

I don't know how long post bolus you mean, but my lowest point which is just before Bolus is around 8.1 and the peak pH is ~8.5ish

Previously when dosing balling light over 23hrs if see 7.8-8.1 as a daily swing.

Did you see / start this in the winter or just recently?

 

[Welsh Reefer.]

Did you see / start this in the winter or just recently?

Yes throughout winter/colder season (well early February I started bolus and as you know, British winter ran right through to April this year lol!) my skimmer is hooked up to outside air, I used to run one port to a scrubber and the other outside but since bolus both are outside fed now.

pH jump to these levels wasn't immediate, it cumulatively built up over a period of weeks, but within days it was clear an upward trend was taking place.

 

[Reefahholic]

Doug said, “when you dose once it doesn’t create a disruption.”

“When you dose lots of times, it creates a disruption.”

I just can’t wrap my head around this concept. How can dosing the entire daily demand of Alkalinity in “one shot” not create a huge disruption.? Make no sense.

A calcium reactor supplementing a very weak solution of Cal/Alk as a continuous drip is much less disruptive than a huge bolus dose IMO. The reaction in the water is much less disruptive. That’s just simple logic.

Many of the old school calcium reactor/ Kalk systems grew bigger colonies vs those who were dosing 2-part. I believe it was because a calcium reactor was more stable. A continuous weak drip is more stable that dosing 10-40x a day with a more potent 2-part solution. See pic below:

The same way a continuous water change system that is changing only 1/G a day is much less disruptive than doing a 50% water change in one day. I’ve seen the destabilizing effects of larger water changes. The corals don’t like it, any dino’s present will flare, alkalinity consumption slows down, etc.

Maybe there’s something to this method, but I need to see some evidence in coral growth before I’d ever try it. I can kinda see the logic, but not sure it works as described.

 

[Reefahholic]

I do believe the corals are consuming more elements during the peak photo period and towards the end, so I do dose a lot of my elements during or at the end of peak photo in the evening versus in the morning.

I don’t know if it’s true for every element, but you can clearly see that with alkalinity, nutrients, etc. The consumption rate is higher during photosynthesis.

 

[Pod_01]

Doug said, “when you dose once it doesn’t create a disruption.”

Is that what he said?
In one of the early videos the claim was that one large disruption early in the morning is preferable compared to many small disruption over the day.
The argument was that the system will sort itself once and be set for the photo period vs. it needs to sort itself over and over.

This large instability leads to stability during the day.

I personally like the statements, description and some observations, I just like for the math and science to work as well.

 

[Reefahholic]

Is that what he said?
In one of the early videos the claim was that one large disruption early in the morning is preferable compared to many small disruption over the day.
The argument was that the system will sort itself once and be set for the photo period vs. it needs to sort itself over and over.

This large instability leads to stability during the day.

I personally like the statements, description and some observations, I just like for the math and science to work as well.

Go to 21:10

 

[Pod_01]

Go to 21:10

I need to catch up, so far I watched the initial chat between Doug and Claude. Maybe things changed since the initial video.


I can only spare so much time…

Maybe I need to re watch both since I may have misunderstood.