Banggai Cardinalfish to be banned!? Even aquacultured ones!?

[jda]

I don't know what got censored, but people's idea of what government is and how it works as a veiled gripe usually get cut. Actual comments on government like you might learn in 10th grade usually make the cut. They don't typically like name calling, so if you want to let somebody know that what they posted is wrong and that this was covered in 10th grade government class, then just say what was covered instead of calling somebody an idiot for not paying attention or remembering 10th grade government. That being said, I do not see any edits on this thread pop up.

I reached out to a friend and she said that AQ is usually a target for imports since a lot of AQ in Indo takes from the wild and raises in captivity, or will take larvae from the plankton stream and raise them up - they still impact the wild population. There are some AQ facilities that act like captive breeders without impacting the ocean at all and that these few can get left behind for a few species but also can get a special exemption in some cases - sometimes you see these listed as farmers. She told me of some endangered Victorian cichlids and some tetras that get raised/farmed in captivity in Thailand and Vietnam and can be imported even though they are on a IUCN ban list. She said that they folks are not complete jerks and really are trying to do the right thing and that each circumstance is different.

 

[Northern Flicker]

I am confused by this post. I actually just went back through to check. I did have to make a post asking people to keep the discussion civil (which people seem to have done since then), but there have been no posts removed and no mod actions in here.

I am wondering if that user is in the wrong thread - I believe there are 3 or 4 dedicated to this subject, and all were quite active yesterday.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

I am wondering if that user is in the wrong thread - I believe there are 3 or 4 dedicated to this subject, and all were quite active yesterday.

That's what I was wondering too. Maybe @BroccoliFarmer has this thread confused with another one he has been reading. This thread has not been edited by the staff in any way (I checked and then double checked).

 

[jda]

I think that people also need to understand that the folks who make these decisions are not idiots. They are going to know that the real deal is and they are not going to take opinions from PETA any more seriously than from r2r'ers if their opinions are full of hyperbole, mis statements or old facts. I would be shocked if NOAA did not already know the names of the good farmers, the bad AQ places and the amount of fish that are actually captive bred in the USA and they did not get this info from Wikipedia or some trade articles from ReefBuilders or an environmental activist.

A parallel to this are the folks on this board who do not understand why MH is not banned for hobby and research use when they can grow their xenia and hammers under LEDs. The folks who make these decisions are smart too and understand that LED still cannot do all of what MH can. These are real professionals too who did not get their education from EcoTech pamphlet or Google.

Can we wait until the end to get all worked up about this? ...or at least read the proposal all the way through? Half of the posts on this thread likely are from people who assumed and do not appear to have read anything.

 

[Salty Sea Flowers]

hear about this awhile ago, and just picked up three banggai for my tank. this is crazy!

ive also gotten word about a mass die-off, of florida rock flower anemones, recently. anyone heard about that?

 

[Northern Flicker]

hear about this awhile ago, and just picked up three banggai for my tank. this is crazy!

ive also gotten word about a mass die-off, of florida rock flower anemones, recently. anyone heard about that?

Both my local LFSs told me this week that these are impossible to get right now. Maybe this is why.

 

[Brian_68]

These are pretty easy to raise and I did it at times by accident the babies went thru the overflow and grew in my sump. Capitalism would help domestic production if they truly aquaculture. They wont go away as they are not difficult to breed unlike yellow tangs. Not sure why aquaculture would be banned unless the realization is it is too easy for foreign suppliers to easily cheat the system and say they are aquacultured.

 

[Reef Republica]

Both my local LFSs told me this week that these are impossible to get right now. Maybe this is why.

The Florida Keys are experiencing mass coral bleaching event due to the the extreme heat the last several weeks. The Florida Rock Flower Anemones are included.

 

[Bigfish502]

I oppose the ban. The NOAA is using out of date information to base their argument on and apparently aren't in communication with the Governments of Indonesia who, along with the Ornamental Aquatic Trade Association and the Animals committee of the CITES treaty to protect endangered plants and animals all agreed that proper steps were already being taken to preserve the species and that no further action was required. This article from Reef Builders outlines the problem with the proposed ban.

NOAA’s Proposal to Ban Banggai Cardinals is Instantly Out of Date | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

Reef Builders has learned that this week NOAA has announced a proposed rule to ban the import and export of Banggai cardinalfish in the USA, following a 2021 petition from conservation groups.

reefbuilders.com

 

[jda]

I don't care if anybody opposes or supports the ban, but you do know that ReefBuilders are as biased of shills that exist in the hobby today? The comments that they rebutted were not even in the NOAA document, but on somebody else's comments/editorial on the NOAA document. Did everybody read the NOAA document? This RB article was as bad of a hatchet job as what they were outraged about from folks on the other side.

The NOAA laid out their own information with dates and sources.

I cannot tell if RB read the NOAA proposal and just did not care, or if they are incompetent. Either way, their opinion was not towards the NOAA.

 

[Bigfish502]

I don't care if anybody opposes or supports the ban, but you do know that ReefBuilders are as biased of shills that exist in the hobby today? The comments that they rebutted were not even in the NOAA document, but on somebody else's comments/editorial on the NOAA document. Did everybody read the NOAA document? This RB article was as bad of a hatchet job as what they were outraged about from folks on the other side.

The NOAA laid out their own information with dates and sources.

I cannot tell if RB read the NOAA proposal and just did not care, or if they are incompetent. Either way, their opinion was not towards the NOAA.

Regardless RB and Quality Marine do make two good points. First of which is that the governments of Indonesia have already been regulating harvest of Wild caught specimens for years with licensing, harvest quotas, etc. so that foreign agencies wouldn't need to ban imports (and harm their local fisheries in the process). Second is that a lot of the Captive breeding efforts that we enjoy the fruits of are based outside the US where space and resources are more readily available at an affordable price. Many of these aquaculture facilities not only supply the aquarium hobby but often will also restock wild populations. Since the US is one of the largest importers of Banggai cardinal fish a ban on imports here would seriously hurt the revenues of these aquaculture operations to such a point that they are forced to either close or make cuts to their operations, which would be counter productive to the efforts of restoring the species (especially if these people are forced to revert back to wild harvesting to export to non-American markets). So by putting forward this potential ban the NOAA is implying that the the exporting countries aren't doing enough to protect the species (which I'm sure the OATC, CITES, and the exporting countries themselves would argue to the contrary) and they are threatening the captive breeding efforts that are helping the species recover.

 

[blaxsun]

The NOAA needs to worry about weather. The ATF needs to worry about alcohol tobacco and fire arms, FDA? Food and drugs.

The NOAA needs to find it's way out of this let the department of agriculture or fish and wildlife handle this.

The NOAA is an enforcement agency. They are not a law creation agency.

Agreed. They should stick to continuing to advise people that it's generally not a great idea to use thermonuclear weapons to disperse hurricanes.

 

[Double monti 61]

It is because of a virus and not financially motivated.

 

[jda]

I think that folks are still confusing what is happening in Indo by listening to these biased people too much. These fish do not appear captive bred in Indo at all. They fish are aqua cultured there - taken from the ocean and raised up, or have their babies taken from them and raised up.

If Banggai are captive bred in Indo, like for real, then these are not part of the ban - only AQ and Wild. If they are not captive bred now, they can start.

Again, did you read the NOAA proposal? You cannot, and I mean absolutely cannot, rely on ReefBuilders or maybe even Quality now to lead you in the right direction. I cannot say this enough NO CAPTIVE BRED FISH ARE ON THE BAN LIST.

These super caring and environmentally friendly aqua culture places can now just focus on repopulating the wild. It would only take a week or two without import to the US. With all of these fish put back in the wild, we are one generation away from wild collection again with such outstanding rising numbers. This is a joke, of course, since don't and won't, but it is being used as a red herring by some.

If these countries are truly in control of a sustainable harvest for the good of the species, then they would never let the harvest get out of control for other countries, right? If what Quality and RB says is true and wild collection will increase, then the ban needs to happen more than we think since the countries are indeed not in control and do not care. So which is it? Are they in control, or aren' they?

The most likely outcome, because it happens with freshwater fish which real agencies know about, is that if there is enough of a market, then captive breeding will ramp up. True captive breeding. This is likely why CB are not banned since this actually does promote a way forward for the people impacted and for the hobby, science and public - NOAA did mention care about the public and aquariums and stuff if you read the document.

There have been too many cases of local governments regulating collection to extinction for money. I am not saying that Indo does this, but they have been pretty shady on other things. If this actually worked, then nobody would need to stop allowing import of Galapagos Tortoises, Gila Monsters, etc. Indo allows cyanide to be used to capture fish - this is how much they care. This can be worse than trusting your teenagers not to drink your beer when you are gone for 2 weeks since they said that they wouldn't.... you gotta count your beers before you leave.

Please, pretty please... oppose the ban if you want, but have an argument not from these folks. They are as bad as PETA, but on the other side. Smart people don't want to hear any of this, so if you have a well-developed and fundamentally sound argument, then submit it during the comment period. Comments along the lines of what RB of Quality mentioned will not get considered because they are not valid and I do not think that we need to risk the hobby looking bad and changing the mind of even one person that we are like PETA. I am probably going to submit a comment that the document explicitly states that importing of Captive Bred fish is legal and fine - I do not think that it states this specifically, but it does not ban the process.

 

[thedon986]

I think that folks are still confusing what is happening in Indo by listening to these biased people too much. These fish do not appear captive bred in Indo at all. They fish are aqua cultured there - taken from the ocean and raised up, or have their babies taken from them and raised up.

If Banggai are captive bred in Indo, like for real, then these are not part of the ban - only AQ and Wild. If they are not captive bred now, they can start.

Again, did you read the NOAA proposal? You cannot, and I mean absolutely cannot, rely on ReefBuilders or maybe even Quality now to lead you in the right direction. I cannot say this enough NO CAPTIVE BRED FISH ARE ON THE BAN LIST.

These super caring and environmentally friendly aqua culture places can now just focus on repopulating the wild. It would only take a week or two without import to the US. With all of these fish put back in the wild, we are one generation away from wild collection again with such outstanding rising numbers. This is a joke, of course, since don't and won't, but it is being used as a red herring by some.

If these countries are truly in control of a sustainable harvest for the good of the species, then they would never let the harvest get out of control for other countries, right? If what Quality and RB says is true and wild collection will increase, then the ban needs to happen more than we think since the countries are indeed not in control and do not care. So which is it? Are they in control, or aren' they?

The most likely outcome, because it happens with freshwater fish which real agencies know about, is that if there is enough of a market, then captive breeding will ramp up. True captive breeding. This is likely why CB are not banned since this actually does promote a way forward for the people impacted and for the hobby, science and public - NOAA did mention care about the public and aquariums and stuff if you read the document.

There have been too many cases of local governments regulating collection to extinction for money. I am not saying that Indo does this, but they have been pretty shady on other things. If this actually worked, then nobody would need to stop allowing import of Galapagos Tortoises, Gila Monsters, etc. Indo allows cyanide to be used to capture fish - this is how much they care. This can be worse than trusting your teenagers not to drink your beer when you are gone for 2 weeks since they said that they wouldn't.... you gotta count your beers before you leave.

Please, pretty please... oppose the ban if you want, but have an argument not from these folks. They are as bad as PETA, but on the other side. Smart people don't want to hear any of this, so if you have a well-developed and fundamentally sound argument, then submit it during the comment period. Comments along the lines of what RB of Quality mentioned will not get considered because they are not valid and I do not think that we need to risk the hobby looking bad and changing the mind of even one person that we are like PETA. I am probably going to submit a comment that the document explicitly states that importing of Captive Bred fish is legal and fine - I do not think that it states this specifically, but it does not ban the process.

What percent of the US Banggai market is imported from Indonesia?
What percent is wild caught?
What percent is aqua-cultured?

 

[James w Lewis]

It's not intended to harm anyone, or take away any liberties. It's intended to protect a species which has had 90% of its population disappear in the last 40 years.

BS. These people react without thinking or proof just like the global warming BS. Oh it’s hot it must be GW, take away peoples way of life there are plenty of fish in the sea and taking a few doesn’t hurt a dang thing

 

[Anemone_Fanatic]

BS. These people react without thinking or proof just like the global warming BS. Oh it’s hot it must be GW, take away peoples way of life there are plenty of fish in the sea and taking a few doesn’t hurt a dang thing

Must be tough being scared of reality.

 

[Rusty_L_Shackleford]

No exception for captive bred? Wow

I was planning get a half dozen to try and form a pair, guess I better do that sooner rather than later before the price skyrockets.

 

[Bigfish502]

I think that folks are still confusing what is happening in Indo by listening to these biased people too much. These fish do not appear captive bred in Indo at all. They fish are aqua cultured there - taken from the ocean and raised up, or have their babies taken from them and raised up.

If Banggai are captive bred in Indo, like for real, then these are not part of the ban - only AQ and Wild. If they are not captive bred now, they can start.

Again, did you read the NOAA proposal? You cannot, and I mean absolutely cannot, rely on ReefBuilders or maybe even Quality now to lead you in the right direction. I cannot say this enough NO CAPTIVE BRED FISH ARE ON THE BAN LIST.

These super caring and environmentally friendly aqua culture places can now just focus on repopulating the wild. It would only take a week or two without import to the US. With all of these fish put back in the wild, we are one generation away from wild collection again with such outstanding rising numbers. This is a joke, of course, since don't and won't, but it is being used as a red herring by some.

If these countries are truly in control of a sustainable harvest for the good of the species, then they would never let the harvest get out of control for other countries, right? If what Quality and RB says is true and wild collection will increase, then the ban needs to happen more than we think since the countries are indeed not in control and do not care. So which is it? Are they in control, or aren' they?

The most likely outcome, because it happens with freshwater fish which real agencies know about, is that if there is enough of a market, then captive breeding will ramp up. True captive breeding. This is likely why CB are not banned since this actually does promote a way forward for the people impacted and for the hobby, science and public - NOAA did mention care about the public and aquariums and stuff if you read the document.

There have been too many cases of local governments regulating collection to extinction for money. I am not saying that Indo does this, but they have been pretty shady on other things. If this actually worked, then nobody would need to stop allowing import of Galapagos Tortoises, Gila Monsters, etc. Indo allows cyanide to be used to capture fish - this is how much they care. This can be worse than trusting your teenagers not to drink your beer when you are gone for 2 weeks since they said that they wouldn't.... you gotta count your beers before you leave.

Please, pretty please... oppose the ban if you want, but have an argument not from these folks. They are as bad as PETA, but on the other side. Smart people don't want to hear any of this, so if you have a well-developed and fundamentally sound argument, then submit it during the comment period. Comments along the lines of what RB of Quality mentioned will not get considered because they are not valid and I do not think that we need to risk the hobby looking bad and changing the mind of even one person that we are like PETA. I am probably going to submit a comment that the document explicitly states that importing of Captive Bred fish is legal and fine - I do not think that it states this specifically, but it does not ban the process.

I read that eye sore of a document and I still don't support the proposal. They are making a pretty big assumption that domestic aquaculture production is going to be able to keep up with demand (it might eventually catch up but definitely not at the start). They DON'T allow for ANY Banggai cardinal fish to ENTER the country for commercial purposes (good luck trying to refresh the gene pool of captive stock with wild caught), captive bred or not, and certainly won't allow Banggai cardinal fish to LEAVE the country either (imagine if ORA couldn't export their captive bred Banggai cardinal fish to European markets or if someone was trying to move to Canada and take their Banggai cardinal fish with them but couldn't). That's not to mention the millions of dollars in lost revenues that will be incurred on wholesalers, who will pass those losses onto retail stores (many retail stores, especially small ones, are already in a vulnerable position as it is) and the retail stores that will pass it onto us. This whole fiasco sets a dangerous pressident that left unchallenged could spread to other species that some of us are more attached to. Special interests groups like PETA are just as encouraged (if not more) by our silence as they are by our outrage.

 

[cpschult]

Collection looks to be on a pretty unsustainable path. It’s pretty wild there are people ignoring that fact.