NOAA to Propose Ban on import of Bangaii Cardinal

[Jay Hemdal]

In the late 2000s, most wild imports of Banggai Cardinalfish I saw had close to complete mortality. They all seemed to exhibit the same symptoms very soon after import: The fish would stop eating, their fecal material would turn white, and then the fins would clamp. Soon after, the slime coat would slough off, and the fish would be dead quickly after that. However, today I am seeing wild shipments that have close to 100% survival rates, even months after import for trackable specimens. The mortality I do see does not display the symptoms mentioned above. I have been to several facilities that buy large quantities of Banggai Cardinalfish. A couple of these facilities are retailers that quarantine their fish for several weeks, and even after the quarantine period, they are buying in quantities in which, despite the sell through, many individuals in a batch are there for several months post import. While obviously the value of these anecdotes has limits, it is noteworthy and there is no doubt something has happened that is decreasing mortality. I'm not sure if this is a result of the training done in Indonesia by LINI to improve fish collection and handling practices, increased sourcing from introduced populations closer to export centers, changes in the path through the supply chain from the Banggai Islands, better biosecurity measures pre-export, evolution of BCI, an unknown factor, or a mixture of several factors, but something has definitely changed. While I would love to know exactly what is going on here, most Banggai Cardinalfish research is currently focused on the state of the species in its endemic range, and for good reason, so I'm not sure we'll get that answer anytime soon.

But that's not actual data unless you kept records - date in, date out, etc. Every fish has "complete mortality" unless a time frame is applied to it.

I've looked at the data I have and cannot see any evidence that survivorship has improved in the past 25 years. I ran a trendline and it is downward. You can clearly see a time of dismal mortality, but it never rose back up.

I'm not prepared to say this is due to a virus, since no testing was done, but I will say that the mortality of this species is unacceptably low compared to what it once was, except for domestically raised fish.

I can't run much data for my own facility, as we manage the population as a "group" with births and deaths mixing and then just doing a yearly census. However, I was able to extract the first group that I bought when they appeared in the trade. In May of 1996, I acquired six wild caught fish. Longevity ranged from 1.3 to 3.6 years with an average of 2.9 years. That's compared to 1.8 years for the later aggregate data. Something is at work here.....

Jay

 

[blecki]

Is mortality any better for captive bred? This fish has a reputation for being 'hardy' but in fact seems to be incredibly delicate.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

This is such an easily solvable issue. Breed some of the easiest fish in the world in America and pay to support American workers if you live in America. It will inconvenience a few shops just like slipping on the floor when I got out of bed today...I got over it rather quickly and moved on with life though.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

This is such an easily solvable issue. Breed some of the easiest fish in the world in America and pay to support American workers if you live in America. It will inconvenience a few shops just like slipping on the floor when I got out of bed today...I got over it rather quickly and moved on with life though.

I agree. The trouble seems to be their low fecundity and high labor costs in the US. Still, we've seen issues with pen-raised fish before - i.e., seahorses from Vietnam that had horrible survivorship compared to domestically raised ones.

I do hear comments that by buying fish raised overseas, that we are helping those people economically, and may keep them from collecting wild fish instead. I can't speak to that other than to say due to shipping costs, the amount paid for these fish is very low, and may not truly help support people in the range countries as supposed.

Jay

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I agree. The trouble seems to be their low fecundity and high labor costs in the US. Still, we've seen issues with pen-raised fish before - i.e., seahorses from Vietnam that had horrible survivorship compared to domestically raised ones.

I do hear comments that by buying fish raised overseas, that we are helping those people economically, and may keep them from collecting wild fish instead. I can't speak to that other than to say due to shipping costs, the amount paid for these fish is very low, and may not truly help support people in the range countries as supposed.

Jay

I've never been to Indonesia (although I do have a friend who lives in Bali and he's told me plenty about how things work business wise down there), however, I'd tend to assume it's at least somewhat similar to Thailand in terms of corruption and slipping things by the officials with only a small bribe. Again, I'm only speculating here based on what my friend has told me and my experience living in this region. I don't think many people are being helped (not the ones who need help at least). There's probably a top boss who basically owns it all and underpays his workers because they don't have a choice. It's sad but I feel that's likely how it is and if they can sneak in some extra wild fish, they wouldn't hesitate for a little more profit.

 

[Tony Thompson]

I agree. The trouble seems to be their low fecundity and high labor costs in the US. Still, we've seen issues with pen-raised fish before - i.e., seahorses from Vietnam that had horrible survivorship compared to domestically raised ones.

I do hear comments that by buying fish raised overseas, that we are helping those people economically, and may keep them from collecting wild fish instead. I can't speak to that other than to say due to shipping costs, the amount paid for these fish is very low, and may not truly help support people in the range countries as supposed.

Jay

Hi Jay, I understand the theory of engaging and enabling local communities whom are indigenous to the area where the animals are collected.

A proportion of the profits from my business made donations to a number of projects including the LINI Organisation. After retiring I still continue to make personal donation to LINI. (Indonesian Nature Foundation)

I specifically donate to pay for the training of village woman in aquaculture and conservation. This allows them access to new skills become involved in the management of their local natural resources and gives them an opportunity for independent income.

However from following the CITES report re appendix II listing proposal and related COP reports, also the 5 year periodic review by NOAA. I can not see the link between the 112,000 (90%) 'estimate' of the total Banggai imports into the USA (120,000 estimate) has any direct link to the home of the Banggai Cardinal and the people indigenous to its home range.

Having found the location of the Banggai Farm in Thailand, that is close to 2,000 miles away from the Banggais range. I don't understand the rhetoric used in the media that this somehow empowers local communities to preserve their local marine habitat.

The Florida Dept of Aquaculture has certified 8 aquaculture facilities within the USA for breeding Bangggai Cardinals, along with research facility in Hawaii. I contacted ORA whom informed me that they also are looking at stepping back up production of Banggai.

Besides the economical investment of those involved back in 2012 in Thailand. I don't understand how the proposed ban on import to the USA would effect local conservation efforts in Indonesia. They come from Thailand, last I looked Thailand is not in Indonesia, or anywhere close to Indonesia.

Do you have any detailed information on the Fish Farm in Thailand as the trade as usual likes to put out marketing statements but never let one privy to the simplest of details or data.

Cheers Tony Thompson.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Hi Jay, I understand the theory of engaging and enabling local communities whom are indigenous to the area where the animals are collected.

A proportion of the profits from my business made donations to a number of projects including the LINI Organisation. After retiring I still continue to make personal donation to LINI. (Indonesian Nature Foundation)

I specifically donate to pay for the training of village woman in aquaculture and conservation. This allows them access to new skills become involved in the management of their local natural resources and gives them an opportunity for independent income.

However from following the CITES report re appendix II listing proposal and related COP reports, also the 5 year periodic review by NOAA. I can not see the link between the 112,000 (90%) 'estimate' of the total Banggai imports into the USA (120,000 estimate) has any direct link to the home of the Banggai Cardinal and the people indigenous to its home range.

Having found the location of the Banggai Farm in Thailand, that is close to 2,000 miles away from the Banggais range. I don't understand the rhetoric used in the media that this somehow empowers local communities to preserve their local marine habitat.

The Florida Dept of Aquaculture has certified 8 aquaculture facilities within the USA for breeding Bangggai Cardinals, along with research facility in Hawaii. I contacted ORA whom informed me that they also are looking at stepping back up production of Banggai.

Besides the economical investment of those involved back in 2012 in Thailand. I don't understand how the proposed ban on import to the USA would effect local conservation efforts in Indonesia. They come from Thailand, last I looked Thailand is not in Indonesia, or anywhere close to Indonesia.

Do you have any detailed information on the Fish Farm in Thailand as the trade as usual likes to put out marketing statements but never let one privy to the simplest of details or data.

Cheers Tony Thompson.

I'd be interested in knowing about this farm as well since I've never heard of Bengaii Cardinals being bred in Thailand, although other harder to breed species are. I actually am pretty well connected as well.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Thinking about it, I'm not doubting your information but Thailand is extremely strict with importation of anything live at all. There are no live culturable phytoplankton for sale even though the country is surrounded by water and countries that openly sell culturable pods and phyto.

 

[Tony Thompson]

I'd be interested in knowing about this farm as well since I've never heard of Bengaii Cardinals being bred in Thailand, although other harder to breed species are. I actually am pretty well connected as well.

Any further details would be very much appreciated, according to the report (not disputed by the importer) The sea farm in Thailand is the only source of 90 % of total import of the species into the USA specifically mentioned as aqua cultured.

I can find it on the map as I have the name and address. But it seems to be veiled in secrecy. I can not finds any website or journal information on the facility. The same farm also aqua cultures, spotted Cardinals and a few damsel species for the USA import market.

You mention you are well connected, do you have any further details? and what is your connection. I have been offered a zoom meeting with Dr Rhyne and would be very interested in his input. Both on the periodic review (in which he was cited) and the rhetoric being used by the trade. I have also had contact with Ret Talbot who also seems to have concern about the rhetoric used.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Any further details would be very much appreciated, according to the report (not disputed by the importer) The sea farm in Thailand is the only source of 90 % of total import of the species into the USA specifically mentioned as aqua cultured.

I can find it on the map as I have the name and address. But it seems to be veiled in secrecy. I can not finds any website or journal information on the facility. The same farm also aqua cultures, spotted Cardinals and a few damsel species for the USA import market.

You mention you are well connected, do you have any further details? and what is your connection. I have been offered a zoom meeting with Dr Rhyne and would be very interested in his input. Both on the periodic review (in which he was cited) and the rhetoric being used by the trade. I have also had contact with Ret Talbot who also seems to have concern about the rhetoric used.

DM me the name...I have a feeling I know who it is and where they are...If I'm right, I've spoken with company representatives before.

 

[Tony Thompson]

DM me the name...I have a feeling I know who it is and where they are...If I'm right, I've spoken with company representatives before.

I don't see the need to DM its open access information.

This is the citation from the scientific paper published on ResearchGate.

Study to assess the impact of international trade on the conservation status ofPterapogon kauderni (Banggai cardinalfish). Technical Report · January 2018

Samliok Ndobe Universitas Tadulako
Inayah Yasir Universitas Hasanuddin
Abigail Moore Universitas Hasanuddin
Monica Virginia Biondo Fondation Franz Weber

All content following this page was uploaded by S. J. Foster on 25 March 2020.



Nautilus Park (P. kauderni breeder in Thailand)72.

(72) Songpradit A. (2016) NAUTILUS Park – Notes on Kauderni – EU/CITES – US/ESA. Phang Nga, Thailand, 2 June
2016. 8 pp

 

[Tony Thompson]

Its late here in the UK, 01:00, I will catch back up tomorrow sometime. Goodnight.

 

[AP Fishkeeper]

Hi Jay, I understand the theory of engaging and enabling local communities whom are indigenous to the area where the animals are collected.

A proportion of the profits from my business made donations to a number of projects including the LINI Organisation. After retiring I still continue to make personal donation to LINI. (Indonesian Nature Foundation)

I specifically donate to pay for the training of village woman in aquaculture and conservation. This allows them access to new skills become involved in the management of their local natural resources and gives them an opportunity for independent income.

However from following the CITES report re appendix II listing proposal and related COP reports, also the 5 year periodic review by NOAA. I can not see the link between the 112,000 (90%) 'estimate' of the total Banggai imports into the USA (120,000 estimate) has any direct link to the home of the Banggai Cardinal and the people indigenous to its home range.

Having found the location of the Banggai Farm in Thailand, that is close to 2,000 miles away from the Banggais range. I don't understand the rhetoric used in the media that this somehow empowers local communities to preserve their local marine habitat.

The Florida Dept of Aquaculture has certified 8 aquaculture facilities within the USA for breeding Bangggai Cardinals, along with research facility in Hawaii. I contacted ORA whom informed me that they also are looking at stepping back up production of Banggai.

Besides the economical investment of those involved back in 2012 in Thailand. I don't understand how the proposed ban on import to the USA would effect local conservation efforts in Indonesia. They come from Thailand, last I looked Thailand is not in Indonesia, or anywhere close to Indonesia.

Do you have any detailed information on the Fish Farm in Thailand as the trade as usual likes to put out marketing statements but never let one privy to the simplest of details or data.

Cheers Tony Thompson.

Please see attached file which is the letter from LINI stating opposition to the proposed rule and detailing their efforts in Indonesia. Also, as stated earlier, there are several research papers detailing the benefits conferred to the locals by the fishery, one of which is cited above. There is a reason Indonesia has invested so much in reforming this fishery.

As to your assertation these organizations are not anti-aquarium keeping, please see my comments above as well as the attached screenshot from CBD's website stating that not only do they wish to ban imports of this species, but all sale. Others have provided links showing other instances where the true mission of these organizations has shown through, though these organizations do tend to be opaque in in their agenda as they understand their ideology falls outside the overton window.

This is not legislation. This is an administrative rule that has specific factors to be considered under the ESA. Most of what has been discussed on this thread is outside the scope of what is to be considered when promulgating 4d rules under the ESA.

 

[Tony Thompson]

Please see attached file which is the letter from LINI stating opposition to the proposed rule and detailing their efforts in Indonesia. Also, as stated earlier, there are several research papers detailing the benefits conferred to the locals by the fishery, one of which is cited above. There is a reason Indonesia has invested so much in reforming this fishery.

As to your assertation these organizations are not anti-aquarium keeping, please see my comments above as well as the attached screenshot from CBD's website stating that not only do they wish to ban imports of this species, but all sale. Others have provided links showing other instances where the true mission of these organizations has shown through, though these organizations do tend to be opaque in in their agenda as they understand their ideology falls outside the overton window.

This is not legislation. This is an administrative rule that has specific factors to be considered under the ESA. Most of what has been discussed on this thread is outside the scope of what is to be considered when promulgating 4d rules under the ESA.

Hi Mathew Pederson?

With the greatest respect my question was for Jay.

I have already contacted LINI myself.

However, thanks for the information, the more information I get the more informed I can be on the situation.

As a UK citizen I will not be submitting comment to the NOAA, The USA regulatory and government regulation is not something I personal feel I should have a direct vote on, however I have noticed Tropical Marine Centre have asked European and UK hobbyists to submit comments, specifically to oppose the regulation.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I don't see the need to DM its open access information.

This is the citation from the scientific paper published on ResearchGate.

Study to assess the impact of international trade on the conservation status ofPterapogon kauderni (Banggai cardinalfish). Technical Report · January 2018

Samliok Ndobe Universitas Tadulako
Inayah Yasir Universitas Hasanuddin
Abigail Moore Universitas Hasanuddin
Monica Virginia Biondo Fondation Franz Weber

All content following this page was uploaded by S. J. Foster on 25 March 2020.



Nautilus Park (P. kauderni breeder in Thailand)72.

(72) Songpradit A. (2016) NAUTILUS Park – Notes on Kauderni – EU/CITES – US/ESA. Phang Nga, Thailand, 2 June
2016. 8 pp

I'm not familiar with the name right off but can almost certainly track them down fairly easily. I will also be nearby that are in December and if my contacts can make contact with them (I can't imagine they're a secret from the other aquaculture facilities I've spoken with), I may even be able to pay them a visit because of the job I was recently recruited for. What specifically would you like to know??

 

[Bruttall]

Scientists have estimated that 75%-80% of the fish collected from the wild die even before they’re exported.
The United States has long been a major importer of the species, with an average of 120,000 imported each year. It is also the world’s largest importer of coral reef wildlife overall, responsible for about 60% of the global market.
“For far too long, the United States has contributed to the exploitation, suffering, and decline of this species in the wild by allowing imports for the aquarium trade,” explains DJ Schubert,

If the Majority of these fish die in captivity BEFORE being exported out of INDONESIA, why are we blaming the USA? Why not blame the people actually CATCHING THE FISH AND CAUSING ALL THE DAMAGE BECAUSE OF HOW THEY CATCH THEM AND STORE THEM PRIOR TO EXPORT???
Instead lets blame the consumer, not the Producer. These info slanted articles just make me angry. This is a good example of how MEDIA uses misdirection to manipulate how we perceive the world.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If the Majority of these fish die in captivity BEFORE being exported out of INDONESIA, why are we blaming the USA? Why not blame the people actually CATCHING THE FISH AND CAUSING ALL THE DAMAGE BECAUSE OF HOW THEY CATCH THEM AND STORE THEM PRIOR TO EXPORT???
Instead lets blame the consumer, not the Producer. These info slanted articles just make me angry. This is a good example of how MEDIA uses misdirection to manipulate how we perceive the world.

I don't see blame as the operative issue, as much as cutting off the demand for a product whose production causes problems.

That, IMO, is a reasonable approach whether we are talking abut diamonds, minerals, gold, ivory, rhino horn, or fish.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

If the Majority of these fish die in captivity BEFORE being exported out of INDONESIA, why are we blaming the USA? Why not blame the people actually CATCHING THE FISH AND CAUSING ALL THE DAMAGE BECAUSE OF HOW THEY CATCH THEM AND STORE THEM PRIOR TO EXPORT???
Instead lets blame the consumer, not the Producer. These info slanted articles just make me angry. This is a good example of how MEDIA uses misdirection to manipulate how we perceive the world.

Huh? We're not being blamed, lol

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

If the Majority of these fish die in captivity BEFORE being exported out of INDONESIA, why are we blaming the USA? Why not blame the people actually CATCHING THE FISH AND CAUSING ALL THE DAMAGE BECAUSE OF HOW THEY CATCH THEM AND STORE THEM PRIOR TO EXPORT???
Instead lets blame the consumer, not the Producer. These info slanted articles just make me angry. This is a good example of how MEDIA uses misdirection to manipulate how we perceive the world.

Really? Blame the people who actually do the hardest work? Reprimand and whip any collector who nets a fish too violently! Only crucifixion is truly suitable for his execution!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

If the Majority of these fish die in captivity BEFORE being exported out of INDONESIA, why are we blaming the USA? Why not blame the people actually CATCHING THE FISH AND CAUSING ALL THE DAMAGE BECAUSE OF HOW THEY CATCH THEM AND STORE THEM PRIOR TO EXPORT???
Instead lets blame the consumer, not the Producer. These info slanted articles just make me angry. This is a good example of how MEDIA uses misdirection to manipulate how we perceive the world.

Actually, that statement, "Scientists have estimated that 75%-80% of the fish collected from the wild die even before they’re exported" is not accurate. I have a paper that examined the "roving collector" trade in Indonesia - these are the boats that go out for weeks at a time, use cyanide and hold their fish without feeding them in plastic bags - absolutely deplorable conditions, yet their percentage of fish making it to the exporters was much higher than that. For the data I saw, of 14,253 fish collected, 1,250 did not make it to the exporters. Most of those were damselfish.

I have run post-importation mortality for SE Asian marine fish and the 45 days mortality rate runs something like 40 to 60% - which is AWFUL, but still gives a total loss from collection to post-quarantine of 50 to 70%......

Jay