Arguments against using cipro

[Daniel@R2R]

The content of this thread is moved from a previous thread related to dosing cipro. Since the point of that thread was more about HOW to use it than the debate of whether or not to use it, these posts have been moved here so as to not derail the original thread.

 

[brandon429]

use of cipro in reefing harms the hobby by circumventing thought and practice changes that instill strength inherently in our corals

ask an MD without a reef tank to explain. An MD with a reef tank is likely dosing it, so be sure and consult one with no bias in the matter



On a similar note, I have the sniffles. It's allergy season in middle Texas, among the cedars, but I've found a place online that doles out unlimited amoxicillin so I think I'll make up a dosage rate, a made up course number of days, I won't bother matching the target to the med whatsoever, none of that matters. Amoxicillin cures the sniffles, so I'm all in. <- this is how cipro use in reefing works.

 

[brandon429]

I can't wait for the notable medical journals to write advice articles that thousands of reefers at the behest of other reefers are dosing uncontrolled cipro into reef tanks as they see fit, for years, simply because they can do so as a temporary workaround to accurate reefing- and that this is good for people

Those journals will never write that

They in fact write the opposite, but Palletta left that part out

context clarity: Mike P is among the advocates for random unmatched use in reefing, here’s the article:

Managing Tissue Necrosis | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

While we have come a long way in the hobby and have improved our husbandry skills for keeping corals immeasurably over the past four decades, we still have much to learn, especially in the area of…

reefbuilders.com

 

[Heabel7]

I generally do not respond to such post that do not address the question of the poster but rather a personal opinion that does not relate to the question that was asked. Given you have 27,383 messages and what i can only assume is a respected member on Reef2Reef given your excellence award. Your provided response and information is not an update. In fact, it does not relate to the original poster or my question. Its a personal opinion that does not help to answer any question and after years in forums that has always been frowned upon. I do understand and appreciate your point of view on the topic as an advocate for antibiotics not being used in reef systems. However, as you know, but others may not, recently it has been the topic of many reefing articles/podcasts. In addition, some of the "godfathers" and highly respected reefers such as Julian sprung, Mike Paletta, and Jake Adams all have ties to positive results. Eli Meyer from AquaBiomics posted here on reef2reef with success treating his reef. This is extremely intriguing to myself and many others that are following current reefing events and discoveries.

"Every condition shown in this thread: can be beaten by using better reef tank design"

--I highly disagree, so many coral deaths in this hobby are unexplained with what is accepted as perfect water chemistry, phenomenal reef husbandry, great flow, and adequate lighting. Every big name and most hobbyist have had unexplained deaths. That is why we have backups and bank corals with other hobbyist. Penicillian was discovered by accident and has saved countless lives. It was a miracle cure for things that were not clearly understood, cured or identified until such discovery. Prior to its discovery the human population did what you are expecting us to do in all our reef systems. Get sick and pray you get better because you are fit, excersise, eat the proper foods, and you are well hydrated, and if you die, I guess its just natural selection.

Closed loop reef systems are not the same as the ocean. The bacterial composition varies greatly from the oceans reefs. Heck, even ocean reef to reefs vary in composition. Using Cipro or any other antibiotic in your reef tank should be taken seriously and possibly used as a tool after you have exhausted all options before then. As with many things in this hobby and in the medical field thier are few absolutes. Without the proper support, or really the money to entertain such studies for such a small community of reefers. Then we must rely on eachother with trial and error what works and does not. If everyone that owns a reef in the world followed the recomended cipro dose and then did a 100% water change. That volume of water would be a drop in a swimming pool compared to humans urinating prescribed antibiotics everyday into the water system. Cipro is light sensitive. It is recommended that you do a water change and expose the used water to light in order to neutralize what is left. Your reef lights alone will remove the active cipro in your reef tank in a relatively short period of time and is recommended to be dosed with lights out to be effective. Both of which can be controlled by the end user.

To be clear, I am not an advocate for the use of antibiotics in a shotgun approach. However, i am in the search of information realted to the topic. Success and failures alike. Rather than just toss an opinion out there, please use your status to post information related to the topic.

 

[brandon429]

I expect full kickback from all advocates of shortcut taking

No, I don't have unexplained coral deaths in my 18 year old system, I reef differently than others do who are on the dole for antibiotics

My personal message jobs are 100 pages long: zero unexplained deaths, we reef differently than the masses who can't reef without human antibiotic cheats. Every medical journal in existence agrees reefers shouldn't dose cipro, they just don't care and do it anyway. I do jobs by private chat so that inferior methods the masses use, that promote coral wipeouts, can't interject their methods of dependence and hesitation

My friends and I will never need it, and we keep any coral we want: long term. I realize everyone is going to keep dosing, guessing with cipro simply bc they can get it without a legit scrip

Continue on, it's weakening the hobby and our avaliable stocks. Since I don't source coral from cipro addicts this will never affect me/ my friends

Any fish or coral that require cipro to live are too weak genetically to matter and should be selected out v selected for, weaker lineages, via short term cheating

This thread needed logic balance vs impulse reigning

 

[brandon429]

The specific reason it shouldn’t be used:

leftover target cells begin natural resistance selection weakening our future stocks as inherent resistance wanes

reason there will be leftover target cells:

because reefers aren’t matching doses or specific antibiotic to a known receptive strain. It’s 500mg cipro for everything, anything

because reefers are guessing at the dosage

because reefers aren’t completing a predetermined course # of days shown in research to kill the target sufficiently enough to prevent loss of efficacy…you know, all the stuff from medical journals that we disavow, simply because we can.

continue on though, there’s no way it’s going to stop, we take shortcuts without future vision because the sages told us to do that

 

[brandon429]

Final challenge to this thread: show using a med journal entry where uncontrolled dosing of cipro into an aquarium by 100K reefers is without consequence, where it’s small potatoes


all advocates for the method are just aquarists and blog + article writers.

 

[brandon429]

If Jay was using it in isolated, controlled non reef display/ hospital tank setups for fish only after matching a swabbed and plated target to cipro, that would still violate any statements from medical journals but it would still be more legit than dosing wildly into a reef tank and it likely would be veterinary indicated considering his background

it would begin to take on legitimacy compared to the offers here for sure

I didnt write this to alienate friends and stifle hobby progress

I wrote it because use of cipro is stifling the progress of the hobby and I believe it’s unapparent to the masses, because of their sources used for advocating the method. My future prediction says this is bad, not good for reefing. I’m aware opinions differ, it’s understandable. Some medical journal entries advocating nonspecific application of powerful human meds by hobbyists into aquarium displays will help sway me.

 

[brandon429]

That sounds fair agreed Daniel.

cipro use is now advised for any impulse in reefing, and if we search the forum, several threads exist written by others, some of them MD’s, advising against use. Readers can free to search those out and we can discuss. Mostly people want to discuss how to use it vs the reasons we shouldn’t

 

[Heabel7]

No, I don't have unexplained coral deaths in my 18 year old system, I reef differently than others do who are on the dole for antibiotics

My personal message jobs are 100 pages long: zero unexplained deaths, we reef differently than the masses who can't reef without human antibiotic cheats. Every medical journal in existence agrees reefers shouldn't dose cipro, they just don't care and do it anyway. I do jobs by private chat so that inferior methods the masses use, that promote coral wipeouts, can't interject their methods of dependence and hesitation

My friends and I will never need it, and we keep any coral we want: long term. I realize everyone is going to keep dosing, guessing with cipro simply bc they can get it without a legit scrip

Continue on, it's weakening the hobby and our avaliable stocks. Since I don't source coral from cipro addicts this will never affect me/ my friends

Please put a link to your sticky thread on how to keep a perfect reef tank. Why is there 100's of personal messages? If you and your friends can do it, then why not share the secret to success to avoid the use of cipro and really this argument entirley. Asking a reefer to search all your messages or scower this forum for information and misinformation is futile. Especially with so many opinions floating around. I would also avoid generalizing reefers. Reefing is not the easiest hobby. Therefore, it is not for the weak and unpatient. Those that struggle will be breaking down tanks faster than Cipro breaks down in a reef environment. Honestly, i would be more concerned about the use in cipro in large pond environments. After all, that is why we have access to the pills without a prescription to begin with.

I would absolutly love to see a fact based scientific journal on the use of cipro in a home reef environment. However, no scientific papers or research will most likely ever be done. Simply there is no money to invest for something that will not make money. There are very few manufactures left of antibiotics for one simple reason. There is no money in cures, only treatments. We can debate all day. The only fact is ,weather to use it or not use it, is all anectotal based on opinion and not facts. As similarly stated previously, the use of antibiotics should be done with care as the adverse effects can be dangerous. Creating super bacteria resistant to antibiotics is scary. However, you seem to think that every reefer beyond your friends is out for a quick fix. It is constantly preached to take it slow "nothing good happens fast in reefing". I havent read a document, seen a video, listened to a podcast without the warning. I would wager that the majority of reefers know this and practice it.

We have to watch out for the 2% who do not know any better. A more appropriate response to the original thread would sound something like this...........

#vetteguy53081
"Cipro is a remedy for STN I dont recommend as it can be helpful or harmful. Too many alternatives than solutions used in the hobby while many have a remedy of their own, first factor what caused it and do a process of elimination. Often its as simple as flow or light and things overlooked. Often siphoning dead tissue and brown gel will reverse the process.
Some possible triggers of infection are:
- Alkalinity spike
- Temperature spike
- Salinity spike
- Low dissolved oxygen
- Poor water quality related with phosphate levels up to 5 ppm
- Change in water flow
- Additions of sand
- Changes in brand of salt
- Bad test kits giving faulty results
- Levels of minor elements such as Iodine, Potassium, Strontium
- Light intensity
- Addition of new corals
- - Pesticides
- Airborne Contaminants or sprays"

Then add.. The original poster did not come back possbily due to a failed treatment. I detest the use of cipro for the unkowns that are currently present while in use. It is dangerous to play with something so powerful without proper research. Please see, "link" for more information on antibiotic use and why you should not use it willy nilly.

 

[brandon429]

it's ok if you don't believe me, we all have a searchable post history here. any doubt you have isn't going to stop the daily jobs I do in tank rehab. I read yours, and see a nice reef but very low work in other's tanks.

any chance you'd post a legit journal that advocates reef aquarists, any aquarists, making up a dose for repeated cipro application and guessing how much to add, how long to sustain, while having no idea if there's a bacterial infection even at play? how much incentive would it take to get you to find and post such a read>?

once we see that endorsement we can evaluate whether this is a good idea or not, regardless of your beliefs in my reefing approach.

 

[brandon429]

corals in nature are sexually reproduced and endowed with inherent resistance in nature via natural selection to the things we try and guesscheatkill with cipro as a blanket application in reefing. there is a price for reaching filial generation #1005 for a set of sps, asexually reproduced over and over, traded among peers, allowed to grow into a tree stump frag that catches pockets of detritus in a tank that has no where near actual ocean eddy currents, in a closed system that stores up detritus to fuel extra bacteria

often without UV and export to match the aging of the tank

these pretty but wimpy corals has never evolved to match the changing imports of bacteria we're giving to them, and that price is to die and be removed from the supply chain. without cipro


**if you can keep them alive even without any inherent variation, then do so

but cipro or any other antibiotic cheat is past the line, your ability stopped in reefing right when those were needed.

applying cipro is creating ever-stronger strains to bacteria that will adapt unlike our corals and the bacteria won't be susceptible to it in our tanks forever, to be working without a matched dose or sustain rate or any form of actual research other than 'hey I dosed it, and it worked' is a literal harm to hobby. if you think it's not, I'm awaiting your links.

there is zero good benefit to the hobby in using cipro


the closest I can come to endorsing it is for a matched fish application in a controlled tank (where orders of systemic bacteria conditioned to cipro and not killed by it that will perpetually remain in the tank aren't present) where a swab sample was plated and matched to a known functional dose and duration for the antibiotic at hand, it won't always be cipro. this trend is just terrible but it's seemingly helpful right now, the quick fixes are in, but they won't sustain. it'll take more and more and then eventually a new doser, and effective control mechanisms that are physical arrangements and possibly probiotic vs antibiotic approaches will be long forgotten, that's the real long game here.


these shortcuts stop the hard thinking and true innovation.

this isnt even factoring supply chain issues coming for many antibiotics.

the way you know these reef sages and writers are ripping us off is because it's always cipro, that's what they can get from pill mills. they're not writing about 5 different antibiotics and the unique courses required for completion because their efforts are far from discerning that

do dr's at a hospital always apply amoxicillin for every ailment? why not? they're working with matched targets.

reef sages are doing us a disservice, but by all means fall in line and copy them/I'll watch how this plays out over the next 18 yrs in the hobby.

 

[brandon429]

in the end I'm wanting to develop and be taught by sages ways to reef that don't involve antibiotic treatments, that's the heart of the matter. I'm not advocating for people's reefs to die

where's the passion for probiotic/addition-based reefing vs subtraction? heck I can't find any journals that tout the devastation of adaptivity by using creative additions...all the works I can find (from sources other than reef forums of course) state the warnings are found in application of - reduction approaches, antibiotics.

anyone here can google up articles that show the really bad risks in application of antibiotics in general, especially ones used in human medicine. I don't feel I'm being unfair in my critique

 

[brandon429]

FDA warns Chewy kraft drug and fish antibiotics company

Looks like as of the first of the year you will no longer be able to buy fish antibiotics without a prescription. They don’t want you to have free access to these meds for a reason. Perhaps a reason that will become apparent soon FDA warns Chewy kraft drug and fish antibiotics company...

www.reef2reef.com

cipro abusers, time has come