Anyone using Oxolinic acid in a dip or tank treatment for mushrooms?

Reefifier · Oct 11, 2024

Recently, I have been reading about oxolinic acid, a quinolone antibiotic (like cipro) that was used to treat fish diseases and is used by some on things like SCTLD on SPS. There is little literature available on it and I was wondering if anyone has some experiences with it on mushrooms or LPS. Cipro is getting harder to find, but available and this is also available online in larger containers. Also, I have been looking for cipro alternatives because cipro is not always effective.

Can this be used as a dip, and if so at what concentration/mix rate? I found some dosing guidelines here on R2R, 500mg per 10 gallons of water for system treatment.
I have used chemiclean (erythromycin?), high concentration for mushroom dips as well as KFC, iodine and peroxide, with some good results.

Anyone have any input for the oxolinic acid?

MnFish1 · Oct 11, 2024

1. It will expire - unless you're using it in large quantities, buying it large quantities would be ill advised. 2. Most people do not require this chemical to have coral or inverts. 3. The chemistry suggests that dips are not that helpful with this type of antibiotic. Why are you dipping things anyway - it promotes bacterial resistance - and - the vast majority of people find it completely unnecessary. I don't mean to sound harsh - but - antibiotic resistance is extremely important - and I can see treating a disease - but routine dipping does not make sense IMHO.

Reefifier · Oct 11, 2024

MnFish1 said:
1. It will expire - unless you're using it in large quantities, buying it large quantities would be ill advised. 2. Most people do not require this chemical to have coral or inverts. 3. The chemistry suggests that dips are not that helpful with this type of antibiotic. Why are you dipping things anyway - it promotes bacterial resistance - and - the vast majority of people find it completely unnecessary. I don't mean to sound harsh - but - antibiotic resistance is extremely important - and I can see treating a disease - but routine dipping does not make sense IMHO.

Hi,
Thanks for responding.
I agree with points 1 (depending on you're circumstance) and 2.

I have used Chemiclean, KFC mix, peroxide, potassium salts, sulfa and iodine dips for sick coral, and some antibiotics for sick fish as well, but I am less acquainted with that. I choose the dip depending on the symptoms and severity of the issue. I have enough coral that I keep a hospital tank going, mostly for LPS, but I put some mushrooms and zoas in there too. I do add things to the hospital tank, depending on the symptoms of what's in there, but mostly it is a low flow, low light, high nutrient environment. Among others, I believe KFC dip has been well recognized by many in the reef-keeping community as being a beneficial dip for sick LPS and I have had some success with mushrooms as well.

There other dips for healthy corals, that may be used prophylactically to reduce pest transmission, but my question isn't about that situation.

I can understand your concern about antibiotic resistance and am a supporter of antibiotic stewardship practices. The prudent use of appropriate disinfectants and antibiotics has helped me with coral on many occasions and I want to continue to learn more about what is available and am always looking for something better because despite using these items there is still a fail rate. I am writing and asking questions because I have come close to exhausting the sources information I can find on oxolinic acid. I thought someone with more experience can point me in a useful direction. Oxolinic acid is not available for human use in the US. Being a quinolone, I would expect it to have a similar mechanism of action to something like ciprofloxacin and levofloxacin both which are used regularly in people. I am not sure as far as the differences in properties with cipro and thought some else might have more information.

Sorry, don't mean to write so much, and I do appreciate you response. I wanted to get some discussion about about treating mushroom illnesses as well. I have has a number that have not recovered once they show symptoms, particularly godzillas and some yumas.

MnFish1 · Oct 12, 2024

Reefifier said:
Hi,
Thanks for responding.
I agree with points 1 (depending on you're circumstance) and 2.

I have used Chemiclean, KFC mix, peroxide, potassium salts, sulfa and iodine dips for sick coral, and some antibiotics for sick fish as well, but I am less acquainted with that. I choose the dip depending on the symptoms and severity of the issue. I have enough coral that I keep a hospital tank going, mostly for LPS, but I put some mushrooms and zoas in there too. I do add things to the hospital tank, depending on the symptoms of what's in there, but mostly it is a low flow, low light, high nutrient environment. Among others, I believe KFC dip has been well recognized by many in the reef-keeping community as being a beneficial dip for sick LPS and I have had some success with mushrooms as well.

There other dips for healthy corals, that may be used prophylactically to reduce pest transmission, but my question isn't about that situation.

I can understand your concern about antibiotic resistance and am a supporter of antibiotic stewardship practices. The prudent use of appropriate disinfectants and antibiotics has helped me with coral on many occasions and I want to continue to learn more about what is available and am always looking for something better because despite using these items there is still a fail rate. I am writing and asking questions because I have come close to exhausting the sources information I can find on oxolinic acid. I thought someone with more experience can point me in a useful direction. Oxolinic acid is not available for human use in the US. Being a quinolone, I would expect it to have a similar mechanism of action to something like ciprofloxacin and levofloxacin both which are used regularly in people. I am not sure as far as the differences in properties with cipro and thought some else might have more information.

Sorry, don't mean to write so much, and I do appreciate you response. I wanted to get some discussion about about treating mushroom illnesses as well. I have has a number that have not recovered once they show symptoms, particularly godzillas and some yumas.

I don't disagree with you in general - however - what would be nice to be sure of is 1. what is causing the mushroom disease you're trying to cure (i.e. what evidence is there that its a bacterial infection). 2. That the duration of the dip is likely to kill that bacteria. Much like you can't kill strep throat with a gargle of a penicillin antibiotic, I'm not sure there is good evidence that this works in coral - though there is current research using this for some disease in wild coral. They are not using quinolone antibiotics.

livinlifeinBKK · Oct 12, 2024

I agree with the above...you should focus on whats causing frequent disease outbreaks. It seems odd that you have to treat your corals so often, which I personally think you should focus on first.

Reefifier · Oct 17, 2024

You guys raise a few interesting questions.

1) how to establish if the problem is bacterial in nature and 2) the effectiveness of a given treatment or antibiotic. Optimally this would include observation of signs and symptoms with subsequent culture and sensitivity. Unfortunately, my resources at my home limit me to observation and possibly getting a sample under the microscope. I don't have one at home, but it is a reasonable path...I will source a microscope. It is unlikely that I will be able to do a culture and sensitivity at home, I lack the equipment and experience to do this on cnidareans. I would still need to rely on empirical data sourced from other reefers.

3) what is the vector of infection...I have a 350g frag system and sometimes there is a lot of new items moving in and out. This also serves as an observation area before anything makes it into my displays. I have never needed to treat anything in my display tanks. This being said and identifying new coral as a vector...I believe there is also an endemic bacterial population of pathogenic bacteria in most systems, the same way we all carry some streptococcus in our throats, but we don't get ill until we are have compromised system.
This raises a new issue, what stresses our coral out to compromise their usual immunity. I believe any major change in environmental factors, such as transferring coral from one system to another is enough of a stressor to compromise immunity for many.

Reefifier · Oct 17, 2024

MnFish1 said:
I don't disagree with you in general - however - what would be nice to be sure of is 1. what is causing the mushroom disease you're trying to cure (i.e. what evidence is there that its a bacterial infection). 2. That the duration of the dip is likely to kill that bacteria. Much like you can't kill strep throat with a gargle of a penicillin antibiotic, I'm not sure there is good evidence that this works in coral - though there is current research using this for some disease in wild coral. They are not using quinolone antibiotics.

Actually we don't gargle with penicillin, but we use cipro eye drops for bacterial conjunctivitis, which is very similar to dipping a coralomorph.

Reefifier · Oct 17, 2024

livinlifeinBKK said:
I agree with the above...you should focus on whats causing frequent disease outbreaks. It seems odd that you have to treat your corals so often, which I personally think you should focus on first.

The great majority of my infection concerns are in newly aquired coral in my introduction/frag tanks. Aside from pests which are not hard inspect and to dip for, the introduction of new bacteria with new coral continues to be a concern for me. If I introduce 5 new torches to the 40 that have been growing happily for a several months, and observe BJD on one of the new ones after a week, I feel the need to treat that whole system prophylactically to prevent further infection of other specimens. At that time I would pull the sick individual and treat them more aggressively in a hospital tank. This system has been working reasonably well. I am simply looking for improvements if they are available.
When I have concerns about coral not thriving after I've had them and they become established, I'm looking for environmental factors and not addressing that with antibacterials.

Really, I started this thread to find out additional information about oxolinic acid, it is not well known to me.

MnFish1 · Oct 18, 2024

Reefifier said:
Actually we don't gargle with penicillin, but we use cipro eye drops for bacterial conjunctivitis, which is very similar to dipping a coralomorph.

No it’s not you do not dip your eyes once it’s a treatment given multiple times/day for 3-5 days

MnFish1 · Oct 18, 2024

Reefifier said:
The great majority of my infection concerns are in newly aquired coral in my introduction/frag tanks. Aside from pests which are not hard inspect and to dip for, the introduction of new bacteria with new coral continues to be a concern for me. If I introduce 5 new torches to the 40 that have been growing happily for a several months, and observe BJD on one of the new ones after a week, I feel the need to treat that whole system prophylactically to prevent further infection of other specimens. At that time I would pull the sick individual and treat them more aggressively in a hospital tank. This system has been working reasonably well. I am simply looking for improvements if they are available.
When I have concerns about coral not thriving after I've had them and they become established, I'm looking for environmental factors and not addressing that with antibacterials.

Really, I started this thread to find out additional information about oxolinic acid, it is not well known to me.

What specifically do you want to know? That hasn’t been answered

Reefifier · Oct 18, 2024

MnFish1 said:
No it’s not you do not dip your eyes once it’s a treatment given multiple times/day for 3-5 days

Lol, when I have a sick mushroom or lps it will go through a series of dips, usual daily or every other day, and probably get in a hospital tank with medication.

The eye drops have a similar effect in that you place it topically and then it gets rinsed out with tears or other things we add (or tank water in the case of the coral). So the total dose is only partially retained.
I might add that there are antibiotics treatments that consist of giving only a single dose of zithromax/penicillin/doxycycline to treat a given ailment.