Apex conversion to GHL

[LostSoul]

Are you referring to th

Are you referring to the KHD?

i was refering to the KHD probe. My results are up and down all over the place. Ditto and i have been talking thru it. But i am on my second probe. I mean hell there isnt anything else other than the probe (and calibrated dosing pumps).

 

[vangvace]

I have found that the Apex probes are far more sensitive to air bubbles than the GHL probes. That’s not to be said that the GHL probes aren’t resistant to them, just not as sensitive.

Oops, I meant the flow sensors and kept saying probes. ;Facepalm

I know many don't want to believe it but I would be absolutely shocked to see BRS be unfair when talking about controllers. To be honest, they probably won't even do a direct comparison nor should they IMO. They should do exactly what they're doing with the lights now. Tell us about the features, the pros and cons, the right place each tool can be used and let the end user decide which system works best for them. Then those users can go to the video series showing you how to set each one up and get it working. Yes, those videos are coming but it will take time. Someone has to sit down and fully learn the system. The ins and outs, the language they use, etc...This will take a while plus shooting video for each.

Honestly, BRS has been shady on other controllers the 52 weeks of reefing series. The Vertex incident and Reef-Keeper (Ryan really like reefkeeper) going under could be a cause. Having Terrance on speeddial.
Community grassroots the past 2ish years really pushed BRS to carrying controllers other than Neptune products; culminating with Ryan having to do a video about the Hydros line.
Otherwise they have had the GHL doser and KHD for years without touching it. GHL comments are long verbal pauses turning into we have one in the building (somewhere) Will it continue that way? I hope not. Do I see a shaded view of products they aren't as experienced with? yup. Do I trust Neptune products on my tank? Nope, too many corners cut on the hardware side.

Edit: clarification of thoughts and some better fleshed out ideas.

 

[Billldg]

Oops, I meant the flow sensors and kept saying probes. ;Facepalm


Honestly, community grassroots the past 2ish years is the only reason BRS is carrying controllers other than Neptune products... and then maybe only because of the Hydros "drama". Otherwise they had the GHL doser and KHD for years without touching it and GHL comments are long verbal pauses as they speeddial Terrance. Will it continue that way? I hope not. Do I see a shaded view of products they aren't as experienced with? yup.

As far as the flow sensors, I just ordered my first GHL flow sensor to put on my UV sterilizer, so I will compare them to the Apex flow sensors. I will also change out the 3 Apex flow sensors eventually, but, I will start with the one on my right ruturn line as I will replumb the returns.

 

[Billldg]

When I get home today, I will likely install the GHL PropellerBreeze 4 fan assy and controller. The heat that my new UV sterilizer is generating is raising my tank temp. The GHL 4 fan assy is twice as big as the 4 fan assy I have on my sump now. I will post some pictures later when I install it.

 

[Billldg]

I just installed the GHL PropellerBreeze3 and the controller. It took me maybe 10 minutes to install and program. For a fan that moves 151 CFM, it is quite. So much that I may need to plug the fan straight into a outlet to make sure the controller has it at 100 percent. Below is the documentation on how to install the fan and controller.

How to: Control Propeller Breeze fan via ProfiLux

www.aquariumcomputer.com

 

[Sleepydoc]

Awesome thread! Thanks for taking the time to do the comparison, Bill. I got an Apex about 3 years ago and have been happy so far. I was going back and forth between it and GHL. At the time I had a very poor response from GHL when I had questions so that, combined with the fact that I don’t own a Windows computer and that GHL was going to be at least twice as much for my needs pushed me to Apex.

After reading through all 13 pages I had a few thoughts:

I was frustrated by my salinity probe when I got my apex. I played around with it, etc and eventually forgot about it. Several months later, I looked at it and found it was reading very stable and consistently. What I really realized, though, was that the salinity probe is not necessary for my system. I have a 120 w/a 40 breeder sump, estimated total volume ~130gallons. My ATO tank is 10 gallons. Even If the entire 10 gallons of DI water got dumped into my DT the SG would drop from 1.026 to 1.024. Not ideal but not enough to cause major damage. This doesn’t excuse the finickyness of the Apex probe, but I think people worry too much about it.

Regarding the power bar/relay capacity - Does anyone know what the capacity of the Apex relays actually is, or the GHL relays? I’ve looked online for a teardown of either device and can’t find anything. The reason I ask is the current capacity is determined not just by the relays but also by things like the tracings on and other circuitry on the PC board, cooling, etc. It’s possible that Apex actually uses 15A relays but rates them at 7A because of the board design, or that they have already downrated them in their specs and 7A is really 75 or 80% of the actual capacity.

I have no actual data on either company’s power bars, so this is all speculation, but I did want to point out that you were actually making some assumptions about both devices without actually knowing.

I’m interested in a comparison of the flow meters (as well as how GHL’s meters actually work. If they do work by measuring vibrations due to turbulence they may also be susceptible to buildup/accumulation on the sensor, since that could affect the frequency of vibration. Again, this is hypothetical; I haven’t seen any actual comparison data between either.

Finally, regarding BRS, I‘m a supporter, but I also share some of the concerns regarding their recent mergers and some of the same observations with their reviews. I distinctly remember a few years ago when the Vertex Cerebra was announced - they were big proponents in their videos but they really failed to do any sort of critical evaluation and basically parroted Vertex’s talking points.

They’ve carried Apex gear for years but only recently started carrying GHL. Was this because of GHL’s relatively small market share? Incentive payments by Neptune? simply a business decision on their part? Since they were practically promoting the Cerebra initially I don’t think their relationship with Neptune was terribly close at that point but who knows? Regardless, I think future controller reviews by BRS will need to be taken with a bit of skepticism since they will have a conflict of interest.

 

[Billldg]

Awesome thread! Thanks for taking the time to do the comparison, Bill. I got an Apex about 3 years ago and have been happy so far. I was going back and forth between it and GHL. At the time I had a very poor response from GHL when I had questions so that, combined with the fact that I don’t own a Windows computer and that GHL was going to be at least twice as much for my needs pushed me to Apex.

After reading through all 13 pages I had a few thoughts:

I was frustrated by my salinity probe when I got my apex. I played around with it, etc and eventually forgot about it. Several months later, I looked at it and found it was reading very stable and consistently. What I really realized, though, was that the salinity probe is not necessary for my system. I have a 120 w/a 40 breeder sump, estimated total volume ~130gallons. My ATO tank is 10 gallons. Even If the entire 10 gallons of DI water got dumped into my DT the SG would drop from 1.026 to 1.024. Not ideal but not enough to cause major damage. This doesn’t excuse the finickyness of the Apex probe, but I think people worry too much about it.

Regarding the power bar/relay capacity - Does anyone know what the capacity of the Apex relays actually is, or the GHL relays? I’ve looked online for a teardown of either device and can’t find anything. The reason I ask is the current capacity is determined not just by the relays but also by things like the tracings on and other circuitry on the PC board, cooling, etc. It’s possible that Apex actually uses 15A relays but rates them at 7A because of the board design, or that they have already downrated them in their specs and 7A is really 75 or 80% of the actual capacity.

I have no actual data on either company’s power bars, so this is all speculation, but I did want to point out that you were actually making some assumptions about both devices without actually knowing.

I’m interested in a comparison of the flow meters (as well as how GHL’s meters actually work. If they do work by measuring vibrations due to turbulence they may also be susceptible to buildup/accumulation on the sensor, since that could affect the frequency of vibration. Again, this is hypothetical; I haven’t seen any actual comparison data between either.

Finally, regarding BRS, I‘m a supporter, but I also share some of the concerns regarding their recent mergers and some of the same observations with their reviews. I distinctly remember a few years ago when the Vertex Cerebra was announced - they were big proponents in their videos but they really failed to do any sort of critical evaluation and basically parroted Vertex’s talking points.

They’ve carried Apex gear for years but only recently started carrying GHL. Was this because of GHL’s relatively small market share? Incentive payments by Neptune? simply a business decision on their part? Since they were practically promoting the Cerebra initially I don’t think their relationship with Neptune was terribly close at that point but who knows? Regardless, I think future controller reviews by BRS will need to be taken with a bit of skepticism since they will have a conflict of interest.

I initially had issues with the Apex salinity probe a few years back, but @SuncrestReef helped me and never had an issue since. I installed a new salinity probe on my upgrade and never had an issue from the start. I had to move it a few times to prevent micro bubbles from getting into the vessel and effecting it, but, Neptune does ask you to look for such probable problems.

As far as the energy bar, the Apex relays are rated for a 7 amp use while the GHL 6e energy bar relays are rated for 15 amp's. The truth is, most tank don't use 7 amps when you add everything up. On my 120 gal tank, I may have used 7 amps total when I turned everything on. On my 225 gal tank, it is different. Everything is doubled in the since, My main concern was the heaters. I am currently using 2 300w heaters and they pulled, I believe, 4 or 5 amp's by themselves. I also have a 3rd 300w heater in case. In my line of work, I have seen what maxing out amp draw will do short and long term to a relay, contactor, and breaker. It quickly shortens the lifespan. I fell GHL may have over built the energy bars...BUT...it does make me feel better in the long run.

The flow meter comparison will be coming, as I am waiting my first GHL flow meter. Hopefully I will get it Friday. The initial comparison will not be apples to apples. It will simply be a comparison on what I see. I will install it on my UV sterilizer, so I have no comparison with a Apex flow meter, as I do not have a Apex flow meter on the UV sterilizer. I can only give my opinion based on what I see. It will have to taken with a grain of salt.

AS far as BRS carrying GHL, they have carried a few items for years, but only recently started carrying more. I am not sure as to why. I do hope BRS will be able to carry GHL products and do GHL justice. I will give BRS the benefit of the doubt and let them dictate how they want to proceed. I truly hope they will do the right thing and let reefers decide which way they want to go when controllers are involved. WE, as reefers, only want to be givin an honest opinion and choice. That's why I started this thread, to only help reefers when deciding on a controller, which one will best serve their needs. I am also a BRS supporter, I am just not trilled with the merger/acquisition. I feel it will cause reefers to question their rating on things.

 

[Billldg]

When it comes to the GHL and Apex flow sensor comparison, you will have to give me several months to give a honest opinion. I have 4 months on my Apex flow sensors, but, I yet have to install any GHL sensors. I will install one Friday or Saturday, hopefully, but the GHL flow meter will be installed on my UV sterilizer. I do not have a Apex flow sensor installed on my UV sterilizer, and so, it will only be a comparison based on my observation. I will likely never have a apples to apples comparison on the flow meters, as I will upsize the return plumbing when I install the GHL flow meters in my returns. I will only be able to give a, IMO, comparison between the two as it will not be the same comparison when installing the GHL flow sensors. The GHL flow sensors use, I am guessing, and photo eye to rate the flow while Apex uses a paddle wheel. My initial assessment of the Apex flow meters with the 3 I have installed currently...They are effected by any type of debris. Now lets take into the account of anything that may accumulate on the paddle wheel...thus effecting the spin of the paddle...something to think about. I have noticed that my flow meters have slowed down by 5 percent. I am dealing with some dino issues, and I am constantly cleaning my aquascape, and every time I see the Apex flow meters slow down, usually short term, when I blow off the aquascape. Again, just something to think about.

 

[Sleepydoc]

When it comes to the GHL and Apex flow sensor comparison, you will have to give me several months to give a honest opinion. I have 4 months on my Apex flow sensors, but, I yet have to install any GHL sensors. I will install one Friday or Saturday, hopefully, but the GHL flow meter will be installed on my UV sterilizer. I do not have a Apex flow sensor installed on my UV sterilizer, and so, it will only be a comparison based on my observation. I will likely never have a apples to apples comparison on the flow meters, as I will upsize the return plumbing when I install the GHL flow meters in my returns. I will only be able to give a, IMO, comparison between the two as it will not be the same comparison when installing the GHL flow sensors. The GHL flow sensors use, I am guessing, and photo eye to rate the flow while Apex uses a paddle wheel. My initial assessment of the Apex flow meters with the 3 I have installed currently...They are effected by any type of debris. Now lets take into the account of anything that may accumulate on the paddle wheel...thus effecting the spin of the paddle...something to think about. I have noticed that my flow meters have slowed down by 5 percent. I am dealing with some dino issues, and I am constantly cleaning my aquascape, and every time I see the Apex flow meters slow down, usually short term, when I blow off the aquascape. Again, just something to think about.

If you can, it would be a great comparison to install both flow meters in series (on the UV sterilizer or otherwise.) In this configuration you know the flow through both is exactly the same, so any differences are d/t sensor error. You'll have to actually do a measurement to see which one is accurate, of course.

Decreased flow can be d/t buildup on the flow meter itself, or on the inside of the pipes, tubing, etc. I've noticed with my COR 20 that the flow tends to drop off a touch about a week or two after I clean it, then stabilize. It used to bother me but once I realized that it doesn't keep dropping I just ignored the issue.

 

[Billldg]

If you can, it would be a great comparison to install both flow meters in series (on the UV sterilizer or otherwise.) In this configuration you know the flow through both is exactly the same, so any differences are d/t sensor error. You'll have to actually do a measurement to see which one is accurate, of course.

Decreased flow can be d/t buildup on the flow meter itself, or on the inside of the pipes, tubing, etc. I've noticed with my COR 20 that the flow tends to drop off a touch about a week or two after I clean it, then stabilize. It used to bother me but once I realized that it doesn't keep dropping I just ignored the issue.

I would have to order new unions for the Apex flow meters to put the GHL and Apex flow meters parallel to each other to do a true comparison. I may or may not, but putting one before the other will slightly effect the 2nd flow meter as they both restrict when using a return bigger than the flow meter itself. I will be changing my return plumbing from 1" to 1.25". I will start on the right return as it is the easiest to do.

I currently run 2 Apex Cor 20's, one on each return. I opened a ticked with Neptune and they pretty much told me that my plumbing was the problem and not the Cor 20...HMMM. I ran my returns in 1" pvc. I am currently getting, with Neptunes own flow meters, 600 gph on the right and 550 on the left. The Cor 20 is rated for 2000 gph. Their response is what made me look towards another controller company again. Full disclosure, my left return has 2 reactors on it, though only one is currently being used, and none on my right. Neptune said it is the plumbing size and nothing else. So when I upsize the plumbing I will see. I posted a pic of my flow meter readings below, notice that they are at 574 and 521. The tank is only 3-4 months old, and the flow meters have been installed from the get go. The started roughly 30 gph higher. My question is, are the new Cor 20 pumps getting dirty, or are the flow meters getting dirty due to me cleaning off the scape because of my algae and dino issue...HMMM!!!

 

[Sleepydoc]

As far as the energy bar, the Apex relays are rated for a 7 amp use while the GHL 6e energy bar relays are rated for 15 amp's. The truth is, most tank don't use 7 amps when you add everything up. On my 120 gal tank, I may have used 7 amps total when I turned everything on. On my 225 gal tank, it is different. Everything is doubled in the since, My main concern was the heaters. I am currently using 2 300w heaters and they pulled, I believe, 4 or 5 amp's by themselves. I also have a 3rd 300w heater in case. In my line of work, I have seen what maxing out amp draw will do short and long term to a relay, contactor, and breaker. It quickly shortens the lifespan. I fell GHL may have over built the energy bars...BUT...it does make me feel better in the long run.

Yes, my point was you don't know why they are rated at that current or how they determined the rating, so the difference may not be as significant as it seems, and you are assuming that the rated current is an indication of the quality of the components which is not an unreasonable assumption, but may not be accurate. If Neptune designed the system for 10A per outlet and rated it at 7A so users wouldn't have to worry about actually maxing out each outlet then it's a non issue. (again, I have no proof either way on this, I'm just raising the question)

You are correct about the total current rating. Two 300W heaters should draw 5A, three should draw 7.5A. That's quite a bit of power. For your purposes the GHL would be better, although it may not be unreasonable to put at least one of the heaters on a separate outlet, just as a failsafe.

Regardless, I haven't seen a ton of reports of relays failing on either Neptune or GHL powerbars.

 

[Sleepydoc]

I would have to order new unions for the Apex flow meters to put the GHL and Apex flow meters parallel to each other to do a true comparison. I may or may not, but putting one before the other will slightly effect the 2nd flow meter as they both restrict when using a return bigger than the flow meter itself. I will be changing my return plumbing from 1" to 1.25". I will start on the right return as it is the easiest to do.

They would need to be in series, and yes, two in series would increase the total resistance somewhat, but since the same amount of water would be flowing through each sensor, the effect would be the same on both.

 

[Billldg]

Yes, my point was you don't know why they are rated at that current or how they determined the rating, so the difference may not be as significant as it seems, and you are assuming that the rated current is an indication of the quality of the components which is not an unreasonable assumption, but may not be accurate. If Neptune designed the system for 10A per outlet and rated it at 7A so users wouldn't have to worry about actually maxing out each outlet then it's a non issue. (again, I have no proof either way on this, I'm just raising the question)

You are correct about the total current rating. Two 300W heaters should draw 5A, three should draw 7.5A. That's quite a bit of power. For your purposes the GHL would be better, although it may not be unreasonable to put at least one of the heaters on a separate outlet, just as a failsafe.

Regardless, I haven't seen a ton of reports of relays failing on either Neptune or GHL powerbars.

I have not yet determined how I want to program the heaters. I like to use a primary and secondary controller for my heaters. I have only to go by what the GHL or Apex spec'd the relays at, and as such, make a good guess. The fact that GHL rated theirs at 15 amps and Apex rated theirs at 7 amps tells me that GHL's relay's are rated higher based on deductive reasoning. Something to think about, why would you rate something that is far above what is actual knowing that the likelihood of claims would be high based on you falsely raising the specs.

As far as relays and EB832 Energy bars failing, you only have to look in this very forum. Myself, personally, I have never had a EB832 fail on me, nor a outlet or relay, and I have 3 EB832's and a EB4.

 

[robbyg]

When it comes to the GHL and Apex flow sensor comparison, you will have to give me several months to give a honest opinion. I have 4 months on my Apex flow sensors, but, I yet have to install any GHL

There is really not going to be any comparison in the way they these two units perform.

Neptunes Paddle wheel sensors are not even in the same league as GHLs Vortex flow sensor. GHL uses the same flow sensor as Aquatronica. I have been using one for at least 18 months on my return pump and I have not had to clean it or do anything to it. I suspect it will run for several years without any maintenance since it has no moving parts and really has nothing to block the flow of the water.

I rechecked mine at the 14 month period and it still clocked in the exact numbers on my one gallon test as it did when I first installed and calibrated it.

As for accuracy it's an Apples vs Oranges comparison as Paddle wheels are low cost. low accuracy and high maintenance devices while Vortex sensors are expensive because your paying for the accuracy and durability.

 

[Ditto]

@LostSoul - sorry I missed this:

My lowest is usually between 4.2 and 4.3(depending on the tank) I am keeping my DK around 8.0. The probe gets to the upper between 6.2 and 6.6.

I would run another test before thinning it the probe it could been some air bubbles on the line.

 

[Lasse]

I am currently using 2 300w heaters and they pulled, I believe, 4 or 5 amp's by themselves. I also have a 3rd 300w heater in case. In my line of work, I have seen what maxing out amp draw will do short and long term to a relay, contactor, and breaker. It quickly shortens the lifespan. I fell GHL may have over built the energy bars...BUT...it does make me feel better in the long run.

One of our power bars have one 1000W and two 500 W heaters connected. and they are programmed to run using the pulse variable controller mode - it means that they will go on and off very often. We have run this for two years. It is the oldest version of the PAB powerbar

We have also a 1000 W heater without any problem on a Powerbar 6 E. No problems.

The powerhub is another question. We have had problems with them an 1000 W heater in variable pulse mode. 500 watts works well

​

Sincerely Lasse

 

[KStatefan]

I would have to order new unions for the Apex flow meters to put the GHL and Apex flow meters parallel to each other to do a true comparison. I may or may not, but putting one before the other will slightly effect the 2nd flow meter as they both restrict when using a return bigger than the flow meter itself. I will be changing my return plumbing from 1" to 1.25". I will start on the right return as it is the easiest to do.

Putting them in series will reduce the total flow some but both of the sensors will have the same flow in them.

I did not like how much the GHL adapters reduced the size so I made my own adapters copied from @Member No 1

 

[Sleepydoc]

I have not yet determined how I want to program the heaters. I like to use a primary and secondary controller for my heaters. I have only to go by what the GHL or Apex spec'd the relays at, and as such, make a good guess. The fact that GHL rated theirs at 15 amps and Apex rated theirs at 7 amps tells me that GHL's relay's are rated higher based on deductive reasoning. Something to think about, why would you rate something that is far above what is actual knowing that the likelihood of claims would be high based on you falsely raising the specs.

As far as relays and EB832 Energy bars failing, you only have to look in this very forum. Myself, personally, I have never had a EB832 fail on me, nor a outlet or relay, and I have 3 EB832's and a EB4.

You're still missing my point, but that's ok.

I've seen cases of EB832's failing, but it generally has to do with the power supply, not the actual relays. Have you seen cases of the relays failing?

 

[Billldg]

You're still missing my point, but that's ok.

I've seen cases of EB832's failing, but it generally has to do with the power supply, not the actual relays. Have you seen cases of the relays failing?

I have read threads about it, but I never had one fail on me personally.

 

[scolson]

Has anyone figured out how to drive a small 12v load with GHL. I see that the breakout box shows two relay connections for the L Port but I can't find any documentation on how to control them.

Disregard I found the answer in this thread https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ghl-relay-control.729173/

Just don't like the answer.