ANOTHER THREAD - SETTING HEATER CONTROL IS ABSURD!

[BeanAnimal]

@Gaël

My ticket regarding my cooling difference questions

Ticket #8494​

Was closed without an answer or confirmation. Am I to assume my understanding of cooling difference was correct?

The user manual for Profilux appears ambiguous as to the actual function of cooling difference. It defines where cooling starts, but does not clearly indicate where cooling STOPS or what hysteresis is applied to cooling. My trial and error indicates that all "cooling difference" does is move the operating band (STOP:START) of cooling forward by a fixed ratio but leaves the hysteresis between START:STOP unchanged.

Can you confirm?
Two examples:

Nominal: 25
Hysteresis: 2
Cooling Difference: 0
Heat Start = 24
Heat Stop = 26
Cooling Start = 27.83
Cooling Stop = 26.83

Nominal: 25
Hysteresis: 2
Cooling Difference: 2
Heat Start: 24
Heat Stop: 26
Cooling Start: 29.83
Cooling Stop: 28.83

My ticket also posed a few questions and thoughts that were unanswered

In both examples "hysteresis" is set to 2 degrees. Am I understanding this correctly?

In the first example you only get within 1.83 degrees of NOMINAL from cooling, whereas heat gets you within 1 degree of nominal.

In the second example you only get within 3.83 degrees of NOMINAL from cooling, whereas heat gets you within 1 degree of nominal.

One would think that if "heating" stops at 26 degress, then the logical and proper implementation of the hysteresis band and control points would be
Heat Start: nominal - (0.5 * hysteresis)
Heat Stop: nominal + (0.5 * hysteresis)
Cooling Start: nominal + (hysteresis * 0.83) + cooling difference
Cooling Stop: nominal + (0.5 * hysteresis)

Cooling would still guaranteed NOT overlap heating, and heating + cooling will still give you a TRUE nominal of 25 +/- 1

I can get somewhat the behavior that I want by setting up a virtual temperature sensor and using it for "cooling" and tweak settings as needed, but am still curious as to why this was not implemented in a single "heat + cool" logic.

Thanks,
-Bill

Again - not trying to rock the boat here for any other reason than helping myself and others understand, as well has offer input that (in my opinion) would improve the overall user experience and product operation.

Replying to myself - My ticket was closed without an answer and it would appear that GHL has opted to not respond (being active daily in other threads).

GHL (all of you) as much as I love the product and appreciate the help and support when it comes, situations like this are extremely frustrating to those of us who do follow this forum. In this case there are numerous threads here, at the OLD RC and GHL forums with the very same questions and also somewhat ambiguous answers. The same for some of the other topics that I mentioned. To me that illustrates that a more thorough explanation and examples are warranted in the documentation.

In this case, Matthias indicated that he didn't understand the confusion with something so "simple" and several of us have indicated WHY we are confused and what other information we are looking for. Yes there is some noise in this thread, but there are also some very valid points and unanswered questions.

 

[KStatefan]

I do not use to control heater but do use cooling settings for my ghl fan. I also did not understand the instructions and had to find more help to get it to work like I thought it should.

I trust that the P4 is going to do what it is told to do, just sometimes have trouble with figuring out how to tell it what I want it to do.

 

[Gaël]

Replying to myself - My ticket was closed without an answer and it would appear that GHL has opted to not respond (being active daily in other threads).

GHL (all of you) as much as I love the product and appreciate the help and support when it comes, situations like this are extremely frustrating to those of us who do follow this forum. In this case there are numerous threads here, at the OLD RC and GHL forums with the very same questions and also somewhat ambiguous answers. The same for some of the other topics that I mentioned. To me that illustrates that a more thorough explanation and examples are warranted in the documentation.

In this case, Matthias indicated that he didn't understand the confusion with something so "simple" and several of us have indicated WHY we are confused and what other information we are looking for. Yes there is some noise in this thread, but there are also some very valid points and unanswered questions.

Hello,

The ticket was closed because it had gone unanswered for far too long (on GHL part, I admit, and when the ticket was closed it had seemed that the explanations given here were sufficient and that there was nothing more to say, sorry for that, don't think that everything always goes as we'd like...).

GHL is not deaf to your requests, we are currently thinking of a way to explain the temperature settings in a simple and concrete way, but nothing will be announced until this is done.

Gaël

 

[BeanAnimal]

Thank you for the response @Gaël - sometimes just knowing that somebody is listening or a solution is being considered or not forgotten is what matters as much as the solution itself.

 

[Devisissy]

Here I am with my 23 dollar Bayite.

 

[Lucas815]

I think the issue is really simple, and puts into light the usability challenges many users are facing when using GHL products : It's too complicated.

The vast majority of North Americans have no idea what the word "hysterisis" means. I'm pretty well educated, and I had no idea what it meant before using GHL products.

It's great for scientists and biologists, not so much for hobbyists.

Now, everyone understand the concept of "min/max" values.

Ryan from BRS absolutly nailed it in a video a couple years ago about some controller that does not exist anymore. I dont remember his exact words, but it was something like "If your product needs a manual, then it's badly designed".

GHL products are good, I love them, but lets not kid ourselves : they are not designed for the average North American hobbyist.
They're designed for biologists, and we're just trying to make professionnal hardware work for our home aquariums.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I think the issue is really simple, and puts into light the usability challenges many users are facing when using GHL products : It's too complicated.

The system is no more complicated than it needs to be. It is a very powerful platform. In some aspects documentation or UI wording could be improved but the system is not overly complicated. If you want simple on/off get a WiFi switch and an inkbird.

The vast majority of North Americans have no idea what the word "hysterisis" means. I'm pretty well educated, and I had no idea what it meant before using GHL products.

This is a universal term, not something GHL coined or is using to be arrogant.

It's great for scientists and biologists, not so much for hobbyists.

Now, everyone understand the concept of "min/max" values.

See my first comment.

Ryan from BRS absolutly nailed it in a video a couple years ago about some controller that does not exist anymore. I dont remember his exact words, but it was something like "If your product needs a manual, then it's badly designed".

TBH pretty asinine comment on his part, not to mention you can’t use any of their products without RTFM.

: they are not designed for the average North American hobbyist.
They're designed for biologists, and we're just trying to make professionnal hardware work for our home aquariums.

See my first comment. Maybe this is not the product t for you?

 

[Lucas815]

See my first comment. Maybe this is not the product t for you?

It is the product for me since currently, there is no other product that combines awesome hardware, great user experience and good support.

I decided that I can deal without a great user experience since I've been working in IT for 18 years and have no problem navigating this kind of UI, or searching COM ports, or doing cryptic upgrade procedures with a laptop in a UI that would be right at home on a Windows XP PC from 2003.

Still, other users do have problems because over the years, we keep seeing over and over comments about GHL usability issues, because we live in a world where new GHL customers needs to google the word "Hysterisis" to setup their heater.
Telling these people, who just spent hundreds or even thousands of dollars, that it's their own fault for being stupid and lazy is not the solution.

I believe it's never a choice between features or usability. We can have both. It's a shame we don't.
Saying otherwise is a disservice to GHL.

Yet I'll still happily purchase GHL products for years to come.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The features, expandability and power you want comes with a certain level of complexity.

As I said, there are some documentation points that could be better and the Control Center is a bit long i the tooth, but most of that has been moved to the web based app. The software itself and most of the UI (sans the dashboard) are pretty good.

I am sorry that you do not know the word "hysteresis" but it is the proper terminology and what a User Manual is for. The actual word used matters little, as what does matter is the user manual and the explanation. In this case, I agree that the heating/cooling section of the manual could use some improvement.

Take the "iIkbird" for example. They use "Cooling Differential Value" and "Heating Differential Value". They are assigned 2 letter codes. How do you know what these are or do without reading the manual?

Ranco uses "Stage 1 differential" and "Stage 2 differential" labeled S1 and S2.
Good luck sorting out programming without the manual...

With Apex you have to write code
If Temp < 77.9 Then ON
If Temp > 78.1 Then OFF

Good luck figuring that out WITH the manual and not hitting google or the forums, let alone any other feature let alone adding Mobius into the mix.

Have a nice evening. I am going to exit the conversation at this point.

 

[Herbster]

I go back to what I said earlier in this thread. Having the option to show settings in a "Basic" or "Advanced" mode would accomodate both types of user.

I also think that there is also a bit of 'lost in translation'. While generally the english terminology is technically correct, the words used aren't the best for the layman. Please remember that the majority of users fit into the 'layman' bracket.

You dismissed the quote of Ryan, but I actually agree with the quote as long as it refers to an intuitive interface. There is no doubt that a more intuitive interface with basic and advanced options would reduce the reliance on the manual. Looking at the whole Temp Probe settings screen, I challenge anyone to not require the manual for not just the 'Hysteresis' section, but other sections on the screen. There is a big difference between this and the examples you posted. The terminology used is actually very important as if it is understood, the chance of having to re-refer to the manual at a later date is reduced.

Below is the dictionary.com definition of hysteresis:

"the lag in response exhibited by a body in reacting to changes in the forces, especially magnetic forces, affecting it. Compare magnetic hysteresis.
the phenomenon exhibited by a system, often a ferromagnetic or imperfectly elastic material, in which the reaction of the system to changes is dependent upon its past reactions to change."

So we basically have a word that most people won't know, which when looked up, has a definition that most people won't understand. Herein lies the problem, maybe the word used should be 'Variance' or similar.

I would also make it so the Hysteresis value is above or below rather than the both added together, so a hysteresis of 0.2 and nominal value of 25 would be 24.8 low and 25.2 high instead of 24.9 low and 25.1 high. Again, another way to make things simpler and more intuitive.

I would even like to see 'Nominal' changed to 'Required' to make things more self explanatory.

 

[Gaël]

Let's be clear: ProfiLux operation, settings and settings names will not change.
- If this is done - ( I can't promise anything myself ) - it would be more like adding a display showing something like "depending on your settings, the heater will switch on from xxx°C/F and off from xxx°C/F, the alarm will be triggered from... and below..., the chiller..., etc.".

Gaël

 

[BeanAnimal]

\You dismissed the quote of Ryan

Because it was patently dumb.

Looking at the whole Temp Probe settings screen, I challenge anyone to not require the manual for not just the 'Hysteresis' section, but other sections on the screen. There is a big difference between this and the examples you posted. The terminology used is actually very important as if it is understood, the chance of having to re-refer to the manual at a later date is reduced.

The same holds true for any of the examples or a dozen more. You can't set them without the manual and you have to READ for context... and likely come back to the manual if it is a setting that you don't adjust often. No amount of hair splitting to beat up GHL changes this. My point is/was that the instructions could use some work, not that it it "too complicated". Find a simpler device them and deal with the reduced features set, flexibility and power.

Have a nice day.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Let's be clear: ProfiLux operation, settings and settings names will not change.
- If this is done - ( I can't promise anything myself ) - it would be more like adding a display showing something like "depending on your settings, the heater will switch on from xxx°C/F and off from xxx°C/F, the alarm will be triggered from... and below..., the chiller..., etc.".

Gaël

That would actually be ideal, especially if it was "real-time" and took into account seasonal, nocturnal, etc. Even maybe a dashboard item showing the calculated points or something. In the end though, just a few more examples in the manual would clear a lot up.

 

[Herbster]

Because it was patently dumb.


The same holds true for any of the examples or a dozen more. You can't set them without the manual and you have to READ for context... and likely come back to the manual if it is a setting that you don't adjust often. No amount of hair splitting to beat up GHL changes this. My point is/was that the instructions could use some work, not that it it "too complicated". Find a simpler device them and deal with the reduced features set, flexibility and power.

Have a nice day.

What is dumb about a UI which is intuitive? Why should I find a simpler device with a reduced feature set, flexibility and power when I made a suggestion to have a a basic/advanced setting option?

I have, and will continue to purchase GHL products because I view quality & realiability above the useability.

I think you should step back and take a deep breath before your reply to mine and other user posts purely because I/we have a point of view that you disagree with. Have a nice day.

EDIT: Oh, and I don't beat up GHL, if anything my posts are very pro GHL.

 

[Devisissy]

DHL has the expectation that their customer's are smart. BAD DHL BAD. We are all dummies. Treat us accordingly.

 

[BeanAnimal]

What is dumb about a UI which is intuitive?

You interpreted the meaning of his quote to fit your narrative and further ignored the context of mine. Pointless conversation if you can’t keep or reply in context.

I responded to this:

That is an absolutely asinine take from Ryan if even remotely accurately quoted. I called it patently dumb too, because is a moronic thing to say. For you to portray my comments as indicating that an unitive UI is dumb is ridiculous.

I think you should step back and take a deep breath before your reply to mine and other user posts purely because I/we have a point of view that you disagree with. Have a nice day.

A deep breath for what? I don’t agree with either of your takes on the “complexity” or “usability” of the products. Pretty simple and I have stated as much.

 

[Herbster]

You interpreted the meaning of his quote to fit your narrative and further ignored the context of mine. Pointless conversation if you can’t keep or reply in context.

I responded to this:

That is an absolutely asinine take from Ryan if even remotely accurately quoted. I called it petently dumb too, because is a moronic thing to say. For you to portray my comments as indicating that an unitive UI is dumb is ridiculous.



A deep breath for what? I don’t agree with either of your takes on the “complexity” or “usability” of the products. Pretty simple and I have stated as much.

Honestly, you are so argumentative it's unreal. I said "I actually agree with the quote as long as it refers to an intuitive interface". i.e. I made the narrative.

You fired your blunderbuss because you dismissed it instantly. IYHO it was:

asinine
petently (sic) dumb
moronic

Even though you didn't know the accuracy and/or context. Know how foolish you sound?

Just grow up and stop trying to be the intellectual superior. There are plenty of people that are far far more intelligent than me (and believe it or not, you too), the ones that show patience and understanding, I respect, the ones that feel the need to depreciate others are just pitiful.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Honestly, you are so argumentative it's unreal. I said "I actually agree with the quote as long as it refers to an intuitive interface". i.e. I made the narrative.

You fired your blunderbuss because you dismissed it instantly. IYHO it was:

asinine
petently (sic) dumb
moronic

Even though you didn't know the accuracy and/or context. Know how foolish you sound?

Just grow up and stop trying to be the intellectual superior. There are plenty of people that are far far more intelligent than me (and believe it or not, you too), the ones that show patience and understanding, I respect, the ones that feel the need to depreciate others are just pitiful.

I simply don't agree with your opinion and kindly stated why without insult.

My comment RE: "Ryan's Quote" was regarding the other poster's comment. He made the citation and I commented on it. That is the relevant context.

You decided to opine and have become increasingly insulting and aggressive, it has no place here. You are welcome to disagree and carry your own opinion, but please remain cordial or refrain from posting.

 

[ingchr1]

...I would also make it so the Hysteresis value is above or below rather than the both added together, so a hysteresis of 0.2 and nominal value of 25 would be 24.8 low and 25.2 high instead of 24.9 low and 25.1 high. Again, another way to make things simpler and more intuitive.

I would even like to see 'Nominal' changed to 'Required' to make things more self explanatory.

The problem I have is that one would expect the hysteresis to be +/- equal amounts from nominal for the Heater Function and GHL states as such, but my testing has proven otherwise. This just seems to get glossed over and not addressed. See posts in thread quoted below.

I see no issue with using the terms nominal and hysteresis.

I thought I had a pretty good idea on how the Heater and Substrate Heater Functions operated. So, I decided to perform another test to confirm. For this test I used a water bath and doubled my hysteresis from 0.4F to 0.8F. I performed the test three times, and the results were exactly the same each time.

Settings:

Nominal Value = 77.2F
Hysterysis = 0.8F

Decreasing Temperature

77.0F - Substrate Heater On (my primary heater)
76.8F - Heater On (my backup heater)

Increasing Temperature

77.3F - Heater Off (my backup heater)
77.7F - Substrate Heater Off (my primary heater)

Based on the data I was unsure of the Substrate Heater On point, so I performed additional tests on that function using 1.6F and 3.2F Hysterysis. The On points were 76.9F and 76.6F respectively.

From these results and the ones with my normal 0.4F hysteresis, I think it can be concluded that the heating functions of the Profilux operate as follows:

Heater Function ON = Nominal Value - (0.5)(Hysterysis)
Heater Function OFF = Upon exceeding the Nominal Value

Substrate Heater ON = Nominal Value - (~0.2)(Hysterysis)
Substrate Heater OFF = Nominal Value + (0.5)(Hysterysis)

 

[Herbster]

I simply don't agree with your opinion and kindly stated why without insult.

My comment RE: "Ryan's Quote" was regarding the other poster's comment. He made the citation and I commented on it. That is the relevant context.

You decided to opine and have become increasingly insulting and aggressive, it has no place here. You are welcome to disagree and carry your own opinion, but please remain cordial or refrain from posting.

So you don't have a problem with dismissing somebody as "dumb" and "moronic" without knowing the accuracy and/or context of the quote? Methinks you are the one being insulting.