ANOTHER THREAD - SETTING HEATER CONTROL IS ABSURD!

[Ky_acc]

Starting another thread as the issues I am encountering trying to set up the absolute most basic heater control functionality is BROKEN and NONSENSICAL. If I was not home actively monitoring the tank this issue could have killed everything

All i want to do is the following:

1. plug my heater into the GHL powerbar
2. use an external controller to control the heater
3. use the GHL powerbar as a FAILSAFE to turn off the heater if the temp. rises too high
4. Have GHL send me an alert if my temp is above or below my set range

However -- I am unable to get this BASIC functionality working. Instead the GHL socket turns off when the temperature falls BELOW my set range??????? in what world would that make any sense?

Another issue is that there is no clear definition of the relation between HYSTERESIS under "probe / sensor controls" and MAX DEVIATION under "Alarm" ??

My understanding is that hysteresis of 2 degrees = 1 degree over and 1 degree under, is that the same for max deviation? or is a max deviation of 2 degrees = 2 degrees over AND 2 degrees under? how do these two parameters interact with one another?

I WAS EXTERMELY EXCITED TO MAKE THE SWITCH FROM APEX TO GHL - BUT THIS ISSUE IS INEXCUSABLE. THIS IS LITERALLY THE MOST BASIC CONTROLLER FUNCTIONALITY POSSIBLE AND I CANNOT GET THIS TO WORK.

Someone from GHL needs to be able to clearly articulate the logic behind what is going wrong here, or I am returning the unit and never looking back. This is insane!

 

[Ky_acc]

Here are my settings and after playing around with these settings here is the operation i am seeing from my unit

If I (1) turn on "Deactivate Control" under Alarm in the probe settings and (2) assign the switch channel shown in the last screenshot below (Function = temp 1 and heater) the outlet turns OFF the switch when it falls below my desired range

HOW CAN THIS BE POSSIBLE THIS IS ABSURD

From what I can tell "Deactivate Control" is BROKEN and im not putting my aquarium at risk unless someone can very clearly explain the logic of why my below settings are not working as they should based on my understanding (and following GHLs own setup guide)

 

[Vinny@GHLUSA]

Why are you using cooling difference?
Why are you using the nocturnal change setting?
Why is summer switching enabled?

Did you read the programming guide to understand these features before enabling them or were they just randomly pressed without knowing what was being activated?

These conditions affect when the alarm is triggered.

Take a deep breath and start with the basics.

I recommend bypassing the Ranco altogether so it doesn't prematurely shut off the heater before the P4. Connect the heater directly to the PB outlet and disable the settings mentioned above; cooling @ 0, noct.OFF, summer sw.OFF.

Your screenshots show that the heater is ON which is correct.
Current temp: 75.8F
Nominal value: 77.5F

With your hysteresis set to 2F, the switch ON point is 76.5F. Switch OFF point is when the desired temp is reached.

With your alarm settings, it will be triggered when the temperature goes outside of the 1.1F boundary you set.

 

[Ky_acc]

@Vinny@GHLUSA - I do appreciate the help -- Im just really frustrated becuase I woke up to an audible alarm on my backup heater going off because the GHL controller disabled my primary outlet and I cant understand the logic for why it disabled the outlet. This could have killed the tank if I werent here to catch it

I just went in and disabled all theigh / summer settings you mentioned-- I had them off previously and dont know how they got turned on. However I put in a "cooling difference" value as it would not let me save the settings when i inout "0" -- maybe it needs to be "0.0" ?

Im going to go down and test if it works as it should with all of these set off

That said I 100% want the Ranco controller range to be set within the GHL temp range as I want the GHL to be used only as a failsafe with the ranco controller controlling the standard temp fluctuations -- I just want GHL to take over if there is a heater failure as a backup / failsafe

"With your alarm settings, it will be triggered when the temperature goes outside of the 1.1F boundary you set."

is the 1.1 degree max deviation a true "1.1 degree above or 1.1 degree under" or does it function like hysteresis where I need to divide it in half?

 

[Vinny@GHLUSA]

The max deviation value applies to both so...

If desired temp (nominal) is 77.5F and alarm threshold is set to 1.1F, the alarm will be triggered when the temperature is 1.1F ABOVE or BELOW the desired temperature.

Alarm ON @ 78.6F
Alarm ON @ 76.4F

As a suggestion, I would either make the hysteresis smaller OR alarm threshold larger. I can see this becoming a potential concern because at 1.1F it wouldn't take much to trigger the alarm, especially if the tank room runs warmer in the summertime.

 

[Ky_acc]

I agree I for sure want the alarm threshold higher but I set to 1.1 for now just to test if it’s working

I think the outlet control looks to be working now with the three settings you suggested being turned off / set to 0

However I’m not getting an alarm even though my temp is below the range? My best guess is that I set the alarm conditions when it was below the 76.4 threshold, and so it didnt "trigger" the alarm?

 

[Ky_acc]

Ugh @Vinny@GHLUSA just tested this again and the GHL controller still turns off the outlet when the temp drops

I tested this by pulling the probe out of the water and letting the temp drop - the outlet on the powerbar shut off??

See exact settings and powerbar (outlet 3 is the heater) that triggered this -- im completely lost right now...

 

[Vinny@GHLUSA]

Your "Deactivate control" is still enabled.

 

[Ky_acc]

Just tested its turning it off both ABOVE AND BELOW the set temperature?

What could be causing this?

 

[Ky_acc]

Your "Deactivate control" is still enabled.

I want deactivate control enabled -- the literal number 1 reason I use a controller is to turn off the heater as a failsafe

I turn deactivate control as I assume it would turn off the heater when temp is above the set range but also assume if temp is below the range that it would not turn it off?

Below is a direct excerpt from the manual:
"If you wish to activate an alarm when temperature rises or falls beyond a certain temperature, set the alarm to ACTIVE and set the maximum allowed deviation. If you want to turn OFF your heater when the temp reading goes outside the allowed deviation, ENABLE Deactivate control."

surely this doesnt mean that it will turnoff the heater both above and below the set range? Literally the only functionality I want from this controller is just turn off the heater if temp rise and leave it on if temp falls....

 

[Ky_acc]

Okay I guess I figured this out -- but this is the fault of the documentation

the guide reads as if in order to enable switched socket control you need to check the "ENABLE Deactivate control." option

However thats not the case -- all you need to do is setup the outlet with the temperature probe "heater" function, and then the outlet functions as expected

This is downright confusing and a waste of time trying to understand something that could be made very clear with better documentation

 

[Lasse]

"If you wish to activate an alarm when temperature rises or falls beyond a certain temperature, set the alarm to ACTIVE and set the maximum allowed deviation. If you want to turn OFF your heater when the temp reading goes outside the allowed deviation, ENABLE Deactivate control."

My bold

I´n not a native english reader but I understand this. The deviation is plus - minus thats means that it will deactivate both at lower than nominal value - 0.9 F and higher than nominal value +0.9 F.

With this setting ± 0.9 F and hysteresis of 2 F - you will have alarms during normal operation because the alarm deviation from the nominal value is ±0.9 F and your hysteresis is 2 F - it means - in the normal case ± 1 F from the nominal value. You get an alarm before the normal switch off and on. The Alarm deviation MUST be larger than the hysteresis divided with 2 in order to give any sense of the alarm function,

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Ky_acc]

Thanks for the help @Lasse

What you provided above is exactly how I would assume it would work, so we are aligned there

I think the concept of hysteresis in general is overly confusing for no reason, but now that I’ve played around some more I can understand at least.

My issue was that the GHL documentation did not properly explain the “Deactivate control” setting which was causing the outlet to be turned off when the temp value waS ABOVE OR BELOW the set range - this was very confusing to me and could have been addressed by another sentence in the manual explaining that this setting overrides your switch control logic

I’m not sure why this setting even exists for temp as it doesn’t make sense to turn off the outlet when temp is above OR below the range….

 

[Lasse]

I’m not sure why this setting even exists for temp as it doesn’t make sense to turn off the outlet when temp is above OR below the range….

It make sense in advanced configurations with both chilling and heating with help of the same temp probe. You need to have a lot higher deviation than 0.9 K. I also need to explain the halv hysteresis better - it was a little wrong explanation in my post in your other thread. In your example with nominal value of 77.5 F and hysteresis 2 F - the heater will start at 77.5 (and below) and switch of at 78.5 if you chose heating option. Start att 77.5 F (and over) and switch of at 76.5 if you chose cooling option. This in theory - in practical use it will differ one or two decimals in the different endpoints. When you use the same probe to boty a heather and chiller - you need to use the cooling differences in order not to have both heating and cooling the same time - you need a small "dead band"

What confuse people with GHL is IMO - there is so many options This resource have helped me very much

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ingchr1]

...With this setting ± 0.9 F and hysteresis of 2 F - you will have alarms during normal operation because the alarm deviation from the nominal value is ±0.9 F and your hysteresis is 2 F - it means - in the normal case ± 1 F from the nominal value. You get an alarm before the normal switch off and on. The Alarm deviation MUST be larger than the hysteresis divided with 2 in order to give any sense of the alarm function,

Sincerely Lasse

....If desired temp (nominal) is 77.5F and alarm threshold is set to 1.1F, the alarm will be triggered when the temperature is 1.1F ABOVE or BELOW the desired temperature.

Alarm ON @ 78.6F
Alarm ON @ 76.4F
...

Unless I'm missing something or the programming changed, that is not how I read the Programming Guide or observed past operation of my controller.

The alarms take into account the hysteresis and other settings. With his settings the high alarm will be ~80.1F and the low alarm ~75.6F.

From the Guide:

 

[Lasse]

Your right - I did - by meaning - not mentioned the change in levels if you use the the two functions nocturnal change and cooling difference in order not to do it more complicated. My bad. If they both are 0 - my (and) Vinny´s explanations is correct. But only then.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ingchr1]

Your right - I did - by meaning - not mentioned the change in levels if you use the the two functions nocturnal change and cooling difference in order not to do it more complicated. My bad. If they both are 0 - my (and) Vinny´s explanations is correct. But only then.

Sincerely Lasse

Are you sure? Test and observe the operation. It would make sense to me that the alarm points take into account the hysteresis at all times. This way you will not get an alarm while in the normal operating band.

If we really want to confuse things, there are Heater and Substrate Heater functions. Each function operates at different setpoints within the hysteresis band.

 

[Lasse]

Yes your right (again ! )

If we redo the calculations in your example - nocturnal change 0 and cooling difference =0

Lower limit = 26 C - 0 C - 1/2 * 0.2 - 1.5 C = 24.4
Upper Limit = 26 C +5/6*0,2 C +1.5 C + 0 C = 27.666.........

Not 24.5 and 27.5

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ingchr1]

Yes your right (again ! )

If we redo the calculations in your example - nocturnal change 0 and cooling difference =0

Lower limit = 26 C - 0 C - 1/2 * 0.2 - 1.5 C = 24.4
Upper Limit = 26 C +5/6*0,2 C +1.5 C + 0 C = 27.666.........

Not 24.5 and 27.5

Sincerely Lasse

Started to question it myself, so I ran a test with the following settings to confirm.

No Alarm

Alarm (only change from above is the nominal value from 78.3F to 78.4F)

No Alarm (Hysterysis > Max Deviation)

 

[bpseal]

@Vinny@GHLUSA . I CANNOT get my heater to get passed 76 F. I even bought a new heater because I thought it was the fault of the heater. I have my setting at 78 nominal with a hysterisis at .36. It still doesn't want to heat past the 76-76.5 mark. Why? This is the second heater I've tried. My temp prob is setup as instructed and is set to heater. Before I get some anxiety, can you please help me understand why it won't heat past the 76 when it's set for 78 and all other settings are disabled that would cause it to not heat.