Ammonia is our Friend: thoughts needed

[ReeferZ1227]

Tell that to a generation of Zeovit Zealots....

No need, in my limited experience the half starved/poisoned coral doesnt do well in systems that dont follow that methodology, whereas a bacteria and nutrient heavy coral can do well in a variety of different systems.

 

[Doctorgori]

Not sure if related or not but back when I was into planted tanks it was discovered that aquatic plants preferred nitrogen source was ammonia….

Sounds plausible? might be some cross over to symbiotic algae?
but I dunno so I’ll just go back to lurking the smart people here

 

[Lasse]

I haven’t had time to read the entire thread, but will later. This has been something that has been discussed a lot with people like @Lasse

It’s a misconception that for algae to survive/grow/reproduce, there needs to be a supply of NO3 available for their N needs. So the idea has always been to have nitrifiers oxidize the NH3 and then that sets the table for the rest of the ecosystem.

But it is far less energetically costly to algae to simply attain their N from NH3 than NO3. To obtain N from NO3, algae needs to use two different reduction reactions utilizing two different reductase proteins. Much easier for algae to just pop off a few H atoms. This would of course require non-toxic concentrations of NH3.

I haven’t gone super deep into the weeds on this, but it would not be too difficult to set up a study comparing rate of uptake or conversion between systems with only nitrifiers and systems with algae.

True - but I will turn this 180 degree. In the freshwater plant community - it has been a huge no-no according NH3/NH4 addition. Why - because the many troubling (for the aquarist) freshwater microalgae lack the needed enzymes and pathways for using NO3 as a nitrogen source and will take benefit from the addition of pure NH3/NH4. We do not know if many (for us) troubling micro algae act the same in saltwater.

However - there is few people that have measured the NH3/NH4 concentrations in a workin reef tank.

I have, using Hanna Marine Master and I have around 0-0.1 mg/L. Here my figures for March

I test every new batch reagents against Oceamo corrector salt. The correction in this case is -0.05 mg/L

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Cool tangs]

Hmm interesting concept/topic. I want to add some input and sorry if any of it sounds crazy or like gibberish. I'm not well versed in science and I may also not be understanding what your saying correctly.

My brain goes to this initially. Would it not be inevitable that nitrifying bacteria is going to grow either way? Even if corals or algae was to take up the ammonia, I guess you'd have to find a balance of not dosing too much that there would be any leftover to entice nitrifying bacteria to grow. My other thought is if you use live rock then you would already have the bacteria in the tank to take up the ammonia. Possibly before anything else could use it up.

It is interesting though to think that other organisms might be up taking the ammonia other then the notifying bacteria. It's probably very possible and most likely the case to some degree. (Without reading into it personally, this is just a simpleton not science input)

So I guess if it's not just the nitrifying bacteria converting the ammonia through the nitrogen cycle and something else can utilise the ammonia such as coral, could we be missing out on optimal health? Or am I missing the point? We are trying to say that dosing ammonia could have benifits and not just feed bacteria or kill your fish?

Again though with fish they would be creating ammonia anyway that's being released into the water right? Would this not at least give the corals or other organisms the opportunity to at least take up some before it's converted by the bacteria?

Sorry if I've missed the point of this one

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hmm interesting concept/topic. I want to add some input and sorry if any of it sounds crazy or like gibberish. I'm not well versed in science and I may also not be understanding what your saying correctly.

My brain goes to this initially. Would it not be inevitable that nitrifying bacteria is going to grow either way? Even if corals or algae was to take up the ammonia, I guess you'd have to find a balance of not dosing too much that there would be any leftover to entice nitrifying bacteria to grow. My other thought is if you use live rock then you would already have the bacteria in the tank to take up the ammonia. Possibly before anything else could use it up.

It is interesting though to think that other organisms might be up taking the ammonia other then the notifying bacteria. It's probably very possible and most likely the case to some degree. (Without reading into it personally, this is just a simpleton not science input)

So I guess if it's not just the nitrifying bacteria converting the ammonia through the nitrogen cycle and something else can utilise the ammonia such as coral, could we be missing out on optimal health? Or am I missing the point? We are trying to say that dosing ammonia could have benifits and not just feed bacteria or kill your fish?

Again though with fish they would be creating ammonia anyway that's being released into the water right? Would this not at least give the corals or other organisms the opportunity to at least take up some before it's converted by the bacteria?

Sorry if I've missed the point of this one

Yes, nitrifiers are inevitable.

The proposal is that many tanks do not need them, and in such tanks, encouraging them by adding them or media to support them may be undesirable.

It all comes down to this:

I’m not trying to come up with an improved way to start a tank, although that might possibly happen.

I’m trying to get folks to stop pushing more and more nitrifiers as good, and what better way to do that than start a tank without the usual intense focus on them.

 

[areefer01]

I’m not trying to come up with an improved way to start a tank, although that might possibly happen.

With my current display I cycled it fishless and dosed ammonia to 4 ppm. Worked well enough. As far as the various "phases" the never bothered me.

 

[Dan_P]

Yes, nitrifiers are inevitable.

The proposal is that many tanks do not need them, and in such tanks, encouraging them by adding them or media to support them may be undesirable.

It all comes down to this:

I’m not trying to come up with an improved way to start a tank, although that might possibly happen.

I’m trying to get folks to stop pushing more and more nitrifiers as good, and what better way to do that than start a tank without the usual intense focus on them.

Are you considering a position on what I consider “snake oil”, bottled bacteria to solve your problems, increase diversity and grow hair?

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

True - but I will turn this 180 degree. In the freshwater plant community - it has been a huge no-no according NH3/NH4 addition. Why - because the many troubling (for the aquarist) freshwater microalgae lack the needed enzymes and pathways for using NO3 as a nitrogen source and will take benefit from the addition of pure NH3/NH4. We do not know if many (for us) troubling micro algae act the same in saltwater.

However - there is few people that have measured the NH3/NH4 concentrations in a workin reef tank.

I have, using Hanna Marine Master and I have around 0-0.1 mg/L. Here my figures for March

I test every new batch reagents against Oceamo corrector salt. The correction in this case is -0.05 mg/L

Sincerely Lasse

@Lasse what do you think about the potential for direct NH3 uptake by coral to help dinoflagellate symbionts?

 

[Lasse]

I do not think that NH3 can be taken up in any high amount (diffuse) into the symbiont (because it is only as most around 10 - 20 % of the NH3/NH4 pool in in the pH around/in a reef) but maybe NH4 can be transported into the symbiont. Edit - this is not logical as Randy state in the next post

But in normal natural reefs - the N pool is mostly as NO3 as I understand it. Its clear that corals animals/corals symbiont can use NO3. (by transferring into NH3/NH4)

What I focus on is if dosing NH3/NH4 may be a bumerang that takes a lot of unwanted microalgae with it into the display. I try to have a holistic point of view. In my experiences - I have succeeded best when I have a fast and effective nitrification. both in freshwater and saltwater

My tests (and NH3/NH4 measurements) with my reversed flow DSB has clearly demonstrate that NH3/NH4 is produced by bacteria in certain places in a reef aquarium with high organic load.

Test I have done shows that my aquarium will have a surplus production of N as NO3 with around 4-5 mg/day if I stop my denitrification through the DSB totally From 2023

This is the surplus from the nitrification in my tank (Surplus = not been taken up or taken away with other processes)

NH3/NH4 below my DSB and in the DT - summer 2024. Hanna Marine Master

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not think that NH3 can be taken up in any high amount (diffuse) into the symbiont (because it is only as most around 10 - 20 % of the NH3/NH4 pool in in the pH around/in a reef) but maybe NH4 can be transported into the symbiont. But in normal natural reefs - the N pool is mostly as NO3 as I understand it. Its clear that corals symbiont can use NO3.

Everything else aside, that point is not logical.

Suppose total ammonia is 10% NH3 and 90% NH4+.

If you remove half of that NH3, then the remaining total ammonia immediately and nearly instantly readjusts to still be 10% NH4 and 90% NH4+. That readjustment is among the fastest chemical reactions known, and is effectively always complete.

Thus, there is no impediment to removal of in total ammonia by taking out just NH3.

That said, I do not know how ammonia is taken up and it certainly may be as ammonium by protein transporter.

 

[Lasse]

Everything else aside, that point is not logical.

Suppose total ammonia is 10% NH3 and 90% NH4+.

If you remove half of that NH3, then the remaining total ammonia immediately and nearly instantly readjusts to still be 10% NH4 and 90% NH4+. That readjustment is among the fastest chemical reactions known, and is effectively always complete.

Its late here in Europe - your totally right. That´s the reason why you can totally aerate out NH3/NH4. I know that for sure - it was a late night logical somersault. I have edit my post

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Pod_01]

Interesting topic and timely.

About 4 weeks ago I set up 10gal reef tank in my daughter room.
Just cube, salt water and I added one stone from my system and I been putting in different corals. At the same time I been playing with different N and P sources, amino, fish foods, TM phos feed, TM Reef Actif, TM NP plus…

What it looks like:

Nothing to write home about, some of the pieces had algae on them from the start.

My observation so far is that amino may not be the best N source when Phosphate is low. Also amino with carbon source seems to drive bacteria bloom, had two so far. Maybe not the best combination to start with.

Ammonia from (ammonia chloride) with TM Phos Feed seems to be working better, but I still need time to see if how it goes.

As for corals I lost blueberry wine acro and red Montipora piece. I suspected from fluctuations in N and P.
No crash yet GSP is ok, not thriving yet.

I am not measuring anything, just going by what I see. I also added one snail week ago to create ammonia source. He is still alive and kicking.

Regardless fun project/ experiment, it has been less stressful when I compare it to my two previous reef tanks starts. Things are green and alive after a month…

 

[BeanAnimal]

it was a late night logical somersault.

Sincerely Lasse

I much prefer the twerk....

 

[SDchris]

Cycling aside, if we can get reefers to not assume that products such as that below are necessarily desirable, it will be helpful, IMO.:

"Ceramic media is primarily used in a saltwater aquarium to provide extra surface area for beneficial nitrifying bacteria to colonize and grow. "

While I completely agree with that, let me play devils advocate and say, so what!

- I'll just dose some ammonium. It's cheap, easy.
- now i have more filter which gives me greater stability.
- retails happy, now they have 2 products to sell.

 

[Dan_P]

While I completely agree with that, let me play devils advocate and say, so what!

- I'll just dose some ammonium. It's cheap, easy.
- now i have more filter which gives me greater stability.
- retails happy, now they have 2 products to sell.

A possible “so what”, and take this as a story, is that a bio filter dominated by ammonia and nitrite oxidation while appropriate for aquaculture and sewage water treatment, it is sub-optimal for a reef aquarium. What might be a characterization of a good bio filter for the reef aquarium is one that cycles nitrogen into biomass which in turns encourages the develop of multiple tropic levels, an overly complex way of saying feeding the coral. This idea could be taken as an elaboration of what the hobby calls creating a mature system or increasing diversity.

 

[alpenreef]

Ammonia's been given a bad rap in the reef hobby, but it’s not the villain it's made out to be. I've seen tanks started with live ocean rock, macroalgae, and soft corals from day one, without any intentional cycling, and they did just fine. As long as you balance the ammonia uptake with what’s being produced, this method can really work, though you need to stay on top of things.

 

[SDchris]

A possible “so what”, and take this as a story, is that a bio filter dominated by ammonia and nitrite oxidation while appropriate for aquaculture and sewage water treatment, it is sub-optimal for a reef aquarium.

Well this is the marine hobby, we add things to solve problems. So I'll just add a macro algae refuge. That'll take care of the nitrate, and better yet add even more diversity and stability.

What might be a characterization of a good bio filter for the reef aquarium is one that cycles nitrogen into biomass which in turns encourages the develop of multiple tropic levels, an overly complex way of saying feeding the coral.

Sure, I always see good explanations for this backed by lots of specific journal references to support the view. Yet very seldom do I see references to Nutrification and Eutrophication.
What has bigger feeding needs, the coral or the massive support system that was just built

 

[SandNRocks]

Thanks for the comments guys.

Suppose this was the setup. Lets think about a fairly difficult scenario.

1. Dry rock in the water. No display lights yet.

2. Get a refugium or ats or algae rector set up and running.

3. Put some easy corals on the rocks. Fast growing ones preferred.

4. Lights on in the display.

5. N and P dose the tank to feed the corals. Could be nitrate or ammonia or urea for N. Could be a fixed dose, just as one might feed foods, without tracking anything by testing.

6. Slowly expand dosing and organisms. Maybe add in an algae eating fish if needed.

7. As consumers of nutrients expand in numbers, add more producers such as fish, crabs, shrimp, etc

So what things are likely to go wrong, or at least are likely to be worse than dry rock cycling with bacteria additions?

From my experience you can skip half this process.
Dry rock and corals day one. You can literally load it if you want. Like realistically i say anything. Ive done this with acros and all other types of sps, lps etc.
dose n and p to the right ratios to avoid dinos, keep them low but not too low. Like .01-.03 and like 5 nitrates

No nuisance algaes. No problems whatsoever in my experience. Never used live rock, never added bacteria, or anything. Im at the point where im adding fish and organisms like you said, to raise nutrients without having to dose. For reference a 40 gal tank with one fish eats like .07 p and like 10 n a week. I dont use any filtration of any sort on any of my systems. 40gal has filter floss but thats it. No need for fuge, macroalgae, skimmer etc… all personal experience.

 

[SandNRocks]

Also plan to start dosing ammonia as opposed to nitrates soon. I want to see how much that helps if at all.

 

[ReeferZ1227]

Well this is the marine hobby, we add things to solve problems. So I'll just add a macro algae refuge. That'll take care of the nitrate, and better yet add even more diversity and stability.

I went the opposite direction, fine tuning trace is significantly more work than turning off a fuge and alternative export of nitrate.