Ammonia is our Friend: thoughts needed

[Dan_P]

Thanks for the comments guys.

Suppose this was the setup. Lets think about a fairly difficult scenar

Here is a story.

1. Dry rock in the water. No display lights yet.

There is enough nutrients, mostly from the salt mix, to support bacteria growth. Surfaces will become slimy to the touch

2. Get a refugium or ats or algae rector set up and running.

Connecting a device with live macro algae introduces many types of microorganisms into this nutrient depleted system. The macro algae will rapidly become distressed when brightly lit with no nitrogen and little if any phosphate available. Distressed algae start dumping organic carbon into the system which will feed bacteria and mixotrophic algae. Surfaces may start to look fuzzy and color of growth will tend towards yellow to gold.

3. Put some easy corals on the rocks. Fast growing ones preferred.

Additional inoculation of microorganisms to a nutrient depleted environment. Depending on the time from first fill, there could be some established golden ecologies that will be persistent.

4. Lights on in the display.

Photosynthetic microorganisms start to colonize the biofilm coated surfaces. Macro algae “spores” also settle on new surfaces

5. N and P dose the tank to feed the corals. Could be nitrate or ammonia or urea for N. Could be a fixed dose, just as one might feed foods, without tracking anything by testing.

Microorganisms at this time could be capable of vacuuming up all N and P. Corals like starving algae would probably be stressed. Do they exude organics? If they do, they also feed microorganisms.

6. Slowly expand dosing and organisms. Maybe add in an algae eating fish if needed.

By this point, the uglies are well established

7. As consumers of nutrients expand in numbers, add more producers such as fish, crabs, shrimp, etc

So what things are likely to go wrong, or at least are likely to be worse than dry rock cycling with bacteria additions?

 

[carol3]

You need some way to remove ammonia so the concentration does not rise to toxic levels. How fast that happens depends on tank size and number of fish, and the toxic levels are higher than many reefers assume, but it is still a severe problem if fish are put into an empty tank. Of course 20 fish in new 5 gallon tank is not going to work out, and that is not the intent.

If that is what folks want they will need other methods.

I guess in reality, I'm not trying to get people to cycle differently than they do not, I'm trying to get folks to understand that

1. Bacterial nitrifiers are not the only way one might start a tank
2. Ammonia is not as toxic a many think, and is not best minimized
3. Nitrifiers may be detrimental in a fully established reef tank
4. Doing things to promote nitrifiers in an established reef tank may do more harm than good

If I can get some reasonable number of folks to agree with these, especially 2-4 since I think they are the most important, then I will be satisfied with the effort.

The cycling concept is just a way to help drive home these issues, not that it's going to be a revolution in tank setup.

# 3&4 ARE very interesting!!

 

[Solo McReefer]

It seems to me that the hypothesis is that corals(and their personal microbiome) are net importers of ammonia, in glass tanks. Several people have made the claim, Jake Adams and Lou Ekus et al

And that corals use ammonia as "food"

An experiment to determine if that is true seems simple to build

A few tanks, with exact light and flow. Same water

A frag of the same coral in each, similar weight

Add the same amount ammonia to the tanks. Measure the ammonia in the tanks. Over a set time period.

I don't think it will determine if it is the coral itself, or it's commensal bacteria or dinos, that is doing the actually ammonia consuming. I doubt if that experiment is possible, or necessary for our purposes

The Zeovit Method has the reefer placing corals first day on live rock, it's not a new idea. (But then adding blue bottle bacteria each day)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So, are we saying that a protein skimmer is not necessary

I didn’t say anything about skimmers in this thread, but I’d always use one for aeration and organic matter export.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here is a story.



There is enough nutrients, mostly from the salt mix, to support bacteria growth. Surfaces will become slimy to the touch



Connecting a device with live macro algae introduces many types of microorganisms into this nutrient depleted system. The macro algae will rapidly become distressed when brightly lit with no nitrogen and little if any phosphate available. Distressed algae start dumping organic carbon into the system which will feed bacteria and mixotrophic algae. Surfaces may start to look fuzzy and color of growth will tend towards yellow to gold.



Additional inoculation of microorganisms to a nutrient depleted environment. Depending on the time from first fill, there could be some established golden ecologies that will be persistent.



Photosynthetic microorganisms start to colonize the biofilm coated surfaces. Macro algae “spores” also settle on new surfaces



Microorganisms at this time could be capable of vacuuming up all N and P. Corals like starving algae would probably be stressed. Do they exude organics? If they do, they also feed microorganisms.



By this point, the uglies are well established

I was expecting to dosing would happen fast enough after setting up the algae export that there is no special stress.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It seems to me that the hypothesis is that corals(and their personal microbiome) are net importers of ammonia, in glass tanks. Several people have made the claim, Jake Adams and Lou Ekus et al

And that corals use ammonia as "food"

An experiment to determine if that is true seems simple to build

A few tanks, with exact light and flow. Same water

A frag of the same coral in each, similar weight

Add the same amount ammonia to the tanks. Measure the ammonia in the tanks. Over a set time period.

I don't think it will determine if it is the coral itself, or it's commensal bacteria or dinos, that is doing the actually ammonia consuming. I doubt if that experiment is possible, or necessary for our purposes

The Zeovit Method has the reefer placing corals first day on live rock, it's not a new idea. (But then adding blue bottle bacteria each day)

It’s been shown in the scientific literature that hard corals take up ammonia in a beaker.

See, for example, the discussion of a paper here:

Are Nitrates really that important? Or is PO4 king?

Lou from Tropic Marin alleges that their form of carbon dosing (NP Bacto Balance) is different from simple carbon sources like vodka and sugars because it’s a long chain carbon rather than a short chain which every organism has access to. Yes, they have asserted such ideas, and while it may or...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

# 3&4 ARE very interesting!!

And probably the most useful for most reefers.

The follow up is folks having such media might be better off removing them.

I’m reminded of and rethinking some things that happened years ago when folks with bioballs removed them and found nitrate decline. The explanations to date relates to detritus on the bio balls degrading and movement of the nitrifying processes to the outer edges of sand and rock, making it more likely for nitrate to enter and be denitrified.

But here’s a fresh take: slowing down conversion of ammonia to nitrate allowed macro organisms (such as corals) to get more ammonia and to stop wasting energy converting nitrate to ammonia, and thus had more energy to grow more. May not be true, but it is as plausible as the previous explanations.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can't wait to see what comes of this!

Me too. I’m sure it will evolve a lot after all this great discussion.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Take my opinions with a grain of salt.

Starting a tank with new floor and rockwork is a blank canvas for everything to grow on and so the system goes through massive spikes and phases. We are all just trying to make a established set of bacteria's which the tank needs, but it isn't ready to begin with for any of it.

Starting a tank by filling it with live sand and rock, along with corals turns it much more into a already established aquarium, so it works without all the time, spikes etc.

I think most are not starting and tank and instantly filling it with stuff, due to cost and wanting to build it up over time.

So we the established view point is we 'cycle' the aquarium and then build slowly. I think this is a old approach to thinking about it.

Our focus should be getting a stable and established bacteria system in place and something to feed it as the 1st step.

Here is my baby 0.7L Pico experimental reef aquarium. Being just 700ml of water, or 0.2 Gallons, how could I go slow?

I started it with freshly made saltwater mixed up, my 3D printed rockwork, and placed a kenya tree, GSP and a small piece of cheato from my established tank with some amphipods in it.

Day 3 I added the sexy shrimp. I didn't experience any cycle at all and everything was happy until my thermistor failed...Its a experimental tank so the PCB is being worked on.

Its now running again and going well so far, but with this pico's if I take established and add corals I am finding it does just fine and then add a light bioload.

- Paul

Thanks for that example.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What ive found in essentially culuring bacteria and feeding my tank with it is that my SPS do significantly better. Significant. Ive found excess nitrates and phosphates provide more vibrant colorful SPS, and when they dip, i get pale unhealthy coral. Stability doesnt even matter when feeding this bacteria.

What ive also found, is that the different bacteria does not matter much either. Terrestial or marine (microbacter7 vs biodigest).

A couple years ago i would chase around nitrate and phosphate numbers. Results were weak. If i added anpo4 heavy food source, my po4 would spike. Now, to culture the bacteria i use a teaspoon of reef roids and dose the product over 5 days. A tenth of that would cause a measurable spike in the past.

Im interested in your results, but i think were in the early stages of mainstreaming both ammonia and bacteria for the ultimate combination of a healthy reef tank. I personally think youll see coral become very unhealthy, very fast in this experiment, or, better results focusing equally on bacteria.

I don’t doubt that bacteria are great coral food. I think organic carbon dosing is a good idea for this exact reason. It’s not something I’m trying to eliminate or minimize. It’s just the nitrifiers that are in my target sights.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe in the simplest form, pouring in bacteria is simply putting easily digestible microscopic food into solution and making it available, almost irrelevant to the actual strain of bacteria.

Yes. Maybe if food is the goal, we’d even be better off using ones that could not thrive in reef tanks so as to not mess with the naturally evolving biome in reef tank’s.

 

[adamg77]

I am very interested in this article and look forward to reading it. I'll give what I did for my tank and maybe it will spark interest. I'd like to first note that my goal is not a pristine reef - my goal is to imitate nature in ways that are beautiful and educational for myself my friends and my children. I have stopped scraping the glass as my children and friends come over and are amazed at all the copepods crawling around the glass. I also am in no rush with my tank and took some time before I added fish.

I started the tank with dry rock dry sand and instant ocean salt. My initial goal was to keep it dark to help reduce algae. I did not turn on the lights for their cycle for about 2 months. I do not imploy filter socks and decided to carbon dose from the beginning as it seems the corals enjoy the bacteria(I use tropic marin's line of products for dising all-for-reef and carbon dosing). So there is no mechanical filtration on the tank.

Fast forward 2 weeks of pumps running no fish no corals no additions aside from RODI water.
A local friend had some caulerpa she was discarding and so I decided to begin the refugium I intended to use eventually. I also added some kenya trees in the sump along with xenia for the fun of it. The macro algea was very slow growing despite my RODI water leaching phosphates into the system. I had a hair algae outbreak that lasted about 10 days that 5 turbo snails quickly destroyed along with the help of 1 fighting conch and a handfull of trochus snails that have been constantly reproducing.

I fixed the phosphates leeching into the system which dropped them below .03 which within days destroyed the very little macro growth in the refugium. I did notice the macro begin discoloring and shrinking in size prior to the massive reduction in size. I have since been feeding the tank constantly with frozen and pellet food in an attempt to increase phosphates alongside utilizing the approach that Tropic Marin recommends for carbon dosing.

I believe iIessentially did your difficult scenario described. One thing that I did add to it was carbon dosing and the introduction of copepods via @Reef By Steele and the introduction of phytoplankton. I began culturing my own (which I thought was going to be much more diffiult than it is) and now dump, and I mean dump, approximately 1 cup of phyto in the tank daily.

My levels are as follows:
Calcium 425-465
Alk hovering aroun 8ish
Ph around 7.8 despite the introduction of fresh air into protein skimmer
Mag I stopped testing
SG 35ppt with a gravity fed ATO in the attic
Nitrates below 5ppm
I have a ritteri anemone which apparently likes a full spectrum so it gets plenty of light to give the algae energy.

I feed the tank aggressively with pellet foods along with frozen food. I target feed coral and leave plenty of food left over for the inverts to scavenge around for. I sometimes bury pieces of catfish in the sand bed and still cannot get nitrates to increase. I would ultimately like macro algae in the tank prior to the addition of herbivores so that it can go wild as I love the look of most macro algaes. I also wish there was algae growing in the tank as my inverts are now requiring me to feed them instead of them be fed off the algea! The corals have been growing quite nicely mainly SPS and LPS. I have been very happy with the progression of the tank despite being up for a few months. I hope this helps.

 

[Dan_P]

I was expecting to dosing would happen fast enough after setting up the algae export that there is no special stress.

OK, let’s take it as a given that there is enough nitrogen to satisfy all organism needs. I guess the homework question for us is “how do you determine the dosing rate”?

 

[Dan_P]

If you decide to write an article, one discussion point could be the amount of ammonia produced by adding fish vs. dosing (for example ammonium bicarbonate). One frequent counter argument to dosing is "just add more fish". Although might be difficult to calculate, would be interesting to discuss would adding fish be actually feasible to get the same amount of ammonia.

An approximation is that fish release about 90% of the nitrogen they consume as ammonia. That nitrogen comes from the protein in the food they eat. The amount of protein in food is relatively easy to find out.

 

[Dan_P]

It is done in frag grow out systems every day.

Maybe in a new full reef with piles of dry rock and dead sand going through early stages of life there could be lack of resources or proper biome or swinging ions/elemnts or something? Hard to say.

I just ran a quick study to see what happens to trace elements in the presence of new aragonite sand. Iron is depleted and zinc nearly so. Other elements are diminished while others were undetected in the control (nuts!). A follow up study showed iron depletion with 24 hours or less. Limit of detection though was maybe 20 ppb, so, iron not really totally gone maybe. I think there still needs more work looking into how raw aragonite surfaces affect trace elements and other things coral might find useful and whether the depletion affects which microorganisms grow in a new system.

 

[Garf]

This thread has gravity. It has a relentless pull, I've crossed the event horizon. I hate the idea of using green algae, micro or macro. Corals or CCA, sure.

 

[danimal1211]

OK, let’s take it as a given that there is enough nitrogen to satisfy all organism needs. I guess the homework question for us is “how do you determine the dosing rate”?

Could it be assumed corals will take up ammonia when available then resort to NO3 when it’s depleted? A set level of NO3 could be added and if that level is reduced, then increase ammonia dose until NO3 stabilizes.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, let’s take it as a given that there is enough nitrogen to satisfy all organism needs. I guess the homework question for us is “how do you determine the dosing rate”?

Yes, that’s a good question. I think ammonia and nitrate might be needed initially.

 

[Dan_P]

This thread has gravity. It has a relentless pull, I've crossed the event horizon. I hate the idea of using green algae, micro or macro. Corals or CCA, sure.

Use the Force Luke!

 

[Garf]

Use the Force Luke!

Father?