45 Day Fallow periods

[Jay Hemdal]

Well - the reason I put 'no problems' in quotes - is that there are also a lot of people who have said 'I never quarantined until I added Fish X and my whole tank was wiped out'

Subjectively, my experience here is highly skewed as I typically only become involved if there is a serious or unknown disease issue. I never hear from the problem-free people, or folks that control their diseases issues. So - all I see are problems (sigh).

Jay

 

[jaganshi066]

Subjectively, my experience here is highly skewed as I typically only become involved if there is a serious or unknown disease issue. I never hear from the problem-free people, or folks that control their diseases issues. So - all I see are problems (sigh).

Jay

Haha that’s true but I think everyone has some sort of issue right? Nothing’s perfect

 

[OdinPrime]

It turns out I misdiagnosed my DT before attempting the 45 day fallow. What I thought was ich, turned out to be Velvet. Since most of the discussion on fallow tanks revolve around ich, i'm not sure if Velvet requires the longer time span to eradicate.

Spent all day yesterday transferring the surviving fish (Sadly lost my Kole Tang this morning) into the 40gal hospital tank. Im going to attempt an 80 day fallow this time, transfering the fish back into the DT on July 14th. I also have this UV steralizer running on the DT at the recommend flow although I dont suspect this specific unit is going to do much.

I am also trying out Coppersafe this time around as opposed to Cupramine. I brought the levels to 2.0 over a 24 hour period per the recommendations. I'm a little nervous already as my Melanarus wrasse is starting to act a little funny. He went through a full round of Cupramine without any issues so hopefully its just tank transfer stress.

None of these fish have ever showed any signs of being sick, but they were in the same tank as the Kole tang so I know they most likely carry it. Open to any advice for this journey. Should I have waited to start the copper since they are going to be in this tank for the next couple months? Should I have just changed gears and went into management mode since none of my surviving fish have ever showed signs of any ailment?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It turns out I misdiagnosed my DT before attempting the 45 day fallow. What I thought was ich, turned out to be Velvet. Since most of the discussion on fallow tanks revolve around ich, i'm not sure if Velvet requires the longer time span to eradicate.

Spent all day yesterday transferring the surviving fish (Sadly lost my Kole Tang this morning) into the 40gal hospital tank. Im going to attempt an 80 day fallow this time, transfering the fish back into the DT on July 14th. I also have this UV steralizer running on the DT at the recommend flow although I dont suspect this specific unit is going to do much.

I am also trying out Coppersafe this time around as opposed to Cupramine. I brought the levels to 2.0 over a 24 hour period per the recommendations. I'm a little nervous already as my Melanarus wrasse is starting to act a little funny. He went through a full round of Cupramine without any issues so hopefully its just tank transfer stress.

None of these fish have ever showed any signs of being sick, but they were in the same tank as the Kole tang so I know they most likely carry it. Open to any advice for this journey. Should I have waited to start the copper since they are going to be in this tank for the next couple months? Should I have just changed gears and went into management mode since none of my surviving fish have ever showed signs of any ailment?

I don't know of any studies that can confirm infectiveness for Amyloodinium (velvet) over time, not like the study for Cryptocaryon. Noga states that fish can remain infective for at least 20 days, and the dinospores are infective for 6 days. I can't find any timeframe for the resting stage of velvet.

Velvet is a LOT rarer than Cryptocaryon - and advanced cases of Crypt. are often misidentified as velvet (including some photos here). Velvet most typically shows as rapid breathing, with the fish often aiming into the water flow. In advanced cases, you may see a light "dusting" of the fish and glassy eyes. Velvet often causes fish loss after 72 hours, while ich can linger for weeks.

I wouldn't be too quick to discount that your fish didn't pick up ich again - please understand that this thread started based on my opinion after reviewing the studies plus my own experience, and that isn't the same as definitive study. I do think that water temperature is a huge factor in all this.

You mentioned using Coppersafe at 2.0 ppm. I ran some tests using the Hanna meter and a spectrophotometer, based on dosing as per the label instructions, and my results came out as 2.5 ppm. Copper Power tested at 2.0, and Cupramine tested at .56. I can go back and retest, but I wonder if 2 ppm of Coppersafe is high enough to equate to a full dose?

Jay

 

[OdinPrime]

I don't know of any studies that can confirm infectiveness for Amyloodinium (velvet) over time, not like the study for Cryptocaryon. Noga states that fish can remain infective for at least 20 days, and the dinospores are infective for 6 days. I can't find any timeframe for the resting stage of velvet.

Velvet is a LOT rarer than Cryptocaryon - and advanced cases of Crypt. are often misidentified as velvet (including some photos here). Velvet most typically shows as rapid breathing, with the fish often aiming into the water flow. In advanced cases, you may see a light "dusting" of the fish and glassy eyes. Velvet often causes fish loss after 72 hours, while ich can linger for weeks.

I wouldn't be too quick to discount that your fish didn't pick up ich again - please understand that this thread started based on my opinion after reviewing the studies plus my own experience, and that isn't the same as definitive study. I do think that water temperature is a huge factor in all this.

You mentioned using Coppersafe at 2.0 ppm. I ran some tests using the Hanna meter and a spectrophotometer, based on dosing as per the label instructions, and my results came out as 2.5 ppm. Copper Power tested at 2.0, and Cupramine tested at .56. I can go back and retest, but I wonder if 2 ppm of Coppersafe is high enough to equate to a full dose?

Jay

Im unfortunately almost 100% sure it was velvet. He was covered in very small circular white grains of sand, way too many to count. He went from being a healthy happy tang, to him passing within about 5-6 days. When I found him this morning his entire slime coat was gone, and it actually looked his body was eroding away. He also was swimming directly into the current, as well as bobbing at the surface for air last night.

If it is indeed the worst case scenario, do you have any suggestions about how to handle my DT going forward? How does one recover from a velvet infested reef tank?

 

[josephxsxn]

How does one recover from a velvet infested reef tank?

Same process more or less, Humbefish has length for diff issues in his thread here. Same as going fallow for Ich.

• Black ich (turbellarian worms) - 4 weeks
• Brooklynella aka “Clownfish disease” or “Brook” - 6 weeks
• Flukes (monogenean worms) - 4 weeks
• Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) - 6 weeks IF 27C/80.6F can be continuously maintained
• Uronema marinum - No fallow period, as it does not require a fish host to survive. It is an opportunistic parasite that strikes when a fish’s immune system has been compromised. Uronema mainly affects damsels (especially chromis) and clownfish.
• Velvet (Amyloodinium) - 6 weeks

Fallow periods: Going Fishless

Going Fallow The reason to go fallow (fishless) is to eliminate a fish disease from your DT (display tank). Going fallow works because you are denying the disease a fish host to feed upon, essentially starving it to death. In order to go fallow you must remove ALL fish from your DT. If just...

humble.fish

 

[StPatrick89]

I've been doing some research into the "76 day fallow period". I never heard of that prior to coming to Reef2Reef this past summer. I had always used 32 days as the maximum time for a tomont to remain viable under tropical conditions, and then I would round up to 45 days to help ensure that Neobenedenia was eradicated at the same time.

Turns out that the 1997 article written by Colorni and Burgess just references his PhD thesis which isn't available for review. Then, his co-author Burgess was also the editor for the journal that published it - certainly a conflict of interest! This paper then got referenced by Noga 2010 (he lists 72 days).

Things get a bit murky from there - if you read between the lines, there is some reference to one case at 68 degrees where they found viable tomonts in a xeric culture (no bacteria). Colorni himself seems to doubt his results apply to the real world, saying that at warmer temperatures and in the presence of bacteria, the tomonts probably don't last nearly as long.

I say that at 81 degrees F., 45 days is an appropriate fallow periods for Cryptocaryon, Amyloodinium and Neobenedenia....this coincides well with a 30 day copper treatment followed by two weeks of copper-free observation.


Jay

What if fallow isn’t an option?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Then you have to try ich management I think.

Jay

 

[gunflintcamper]

Update on my experience doing 45 days fallow at 81°:

We are over 2 weeks out from adding the fish back to the display and not one speck of ich anywhere to be found!

We did exactly 45 days fallow AFTER raising the tank temp to 81°.

We vacuumed sand a lot and turned up wave pumps and moved them around often for the first week to make sure there were no air pockets.

Hospital tank was in a different room from display...and we were super careful to avoid cross-contamination....this was the hardest part...a few times we caught ourselves going to change floss after touching the other tank and such.

Treated fish 30 days at 2.3-2.4 copper power, normal salinity and temp.

We did not lose a fish!! Had some ammonia issues in uncycled HT and treated the tang for a bacterial infection but he looks wonderful now!

Lost both torches in display...thinking high temp...but the other corals, snails, crabs and shrimp all made it.

Anyway....we got a huge crash course in new reefing and will never buy non-QT again.

But thank you so so much to @Humblefish for the wealth of treatment info and @Jay Hemdal for quick and informative responses!!! Instead of wanting to give up...we have gotten two more tanks. Haha!

 

[GGonzo]

Update on my experience doing 45 days fallow at 81°:

We are over 2 weeks out from adding the fish back to the display and not one speck of ich anywhere to be found!

We did exactly 45 days fallow AFTER raising the tank temp to 81°.

We vacuumed sand a lot and turned up wave pumps and moved them around often for the first week to make sure there were no air pockets.

Hospital tank was in a different room from display...and we were super careful to avoid cross-contamination....this was the hardest part...a few times we caught ourselves going to change floss after touching the other tank and such.

Treated fish 30 days at 2.3-2.4 copper power, normal salinity and temp.

We did not lose a fish!! Had some ammonia issues in uncycled HT and treated the tang for a bacterial infection but he looks wonderful now!

Lost both torches in display...thinking high temp...but the other corals, snails, crabs and shrimp all made it.

Anyway....we got a huge crash course in new reefing and will never buy non-QT again.

But thank you so so much to @Humblefish for the wealth of treatment info and @Jay Hemdal for quick and informative responses!!! Instead of wanting to give up...we have gotten two more tanks. Haha!

This is exactly what I'm doing, except my hospital tanks (plural) are all 10 feet apart throughout my livingroom and dining room.

It brings me a great deal of comfort to hear that your experience has gone so well!
Best of luck finishing up your quarantine and reintroduction of your fish into your DT ❤

 

[gunflintcamper]

This is exactly what I'm doing, except my hospital tanks (plural) are all 10 feet apart throughout my livingroom and dining room.

It brings me a great deal of comfort to hear that your experience has gone so well!
Best of luck finishing up your quarantine and reintroduction of your fish into your DT ❤

They are back! Sorry I worded it weird.
They have been back in the display for 16 days!

First week I panicked every morning and every night looking for specks.

You got this!! Hope everything does good for you too!!

 

[GGonzo]

They are back! Sorry I worded it weird.
They have been back in the display for 16 days!

First week I panicked every morning and every night looking for specks.

You got this!! Hope everything does good for you too!!

I'm pretty sure I felt a grey hair pop out my head when I read your first sentence LOL!!!

 

[gunflintcamper]

I'm pretty sure I felt a grey hair pop out my head when I read your first sentence LOL!!!

The FISH...are back...in the display...no spots

I see the point of the edit button disappearing after a reply but there’s no fixing all the confusion I cause. On any level.

 

[MnFish1]

I don't know of any studies that can confirm infectiveness for Amyloodinium (velvet) over time, not like the study for Cryptocaryon. Noga states that fish can remain infective for at least 20 days, and the dinospores are infective for 6 days. I can't find any timeframe for the resting stage of velvet.

Velvet is a LOT rarer than Cryptocaryon - and advanced cases of Crypt. are often misidentified as velvet (including some photos here). Velvet most typically shows as rapid breathing, with the fish often aiming into the water flow. In advanced cases, you may see a light "dusting" of the fish and glassy eyes. Velvet often causes fish loss after 72 hours, while ich can linger for weeks.

I wouldn't be too quick to discount that your fish didn't pick up ich again - please understand that this thread started based on my opinion after reviewing the studies plus my own experience, and that isn't the same as definitive study. I do think that water temperature is a huge factor in all this.

You mentioned using Coppersafe at 2.0 ppm. I ran some tests using the Hanna meter and a spectrophotometer, based on dosing as per the label instructions, and my results came out as 2.5 ppm. Copper Power tested at 2.0, and Cupramine tested at .56. I can go back and retest, but I wonder if 2 ppm of Coppersafe is high enough to equate to a full dose?

Jay

According to several mods here on this site - Velvet is rampant in the supply chain... I have no clue - But - its out there

 

[Jay Hemdal]

According to several mods here on this site - Velvet is rampant in the supply chain... I have no clue - But - its out there

It really is much rarer than Cryptocaryon, and confirmed diagnosis requires a microscope. I used to see it much more often back in the 1970s
Jay

 

[MnFish1]

It really is much rarer than Cryptocaryon, and confirmed diagnosis requires a microscope. I used to see it much more often back in the 1970s
Jay

I agree - I'm just quoting whats written by multiple mods

 

[Craigmt9]

Can corals remain in DT during fallow period?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Can corals remain in DT during fallow period?

Well, its a bit complicated. Yes, corals and invertebrates all remain in the DT during a fallow period, but ALL of the fish must be removed. The trouble is that this shorter fallow period requires that the tank run at higher temperatures, and corals may not like that. So - if your corals can't tolerate 81+ degrees, then you would be better off leaving the tank fallow for longer, at a lower temperature.

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

Well, its a bit complicated. Yes, corals and invertebrates all remain in the DT during a fallow period, but ALL of the fish must be removed. The trouble is that this shorter fallow period requires that the tank run at higher temperatures, and corals may not like that. So - if your corals can't tolerate 81+ degrees, then you would be better off leaving the tank fallow for longer, at a lower temperature.

Jay

Curious - on a slightly side note - most ocean temps - from where 'our' corals are collected are warmer than where the average person keeps their tank. I find everything does better at 80 - than 78. JMHO

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Curious - on a slightly side note - most ocean temps - from where 'our' corals are collected are warmer than where the average person keeps their tank. I find everything does better at 80 - than 78. JMHO

I know, right? My coral aquarist keeps his systems at 77 to 78 F. I think they should be at 82, but he says he gets better coral health at lower temps, and I'm not a coral person, so can't argue with him.

Jay