45 Day Fallow periods

[gunflintcamper]

Assuming all protocols are followed...30 days of copper in QT...no cross contamination...

If we set the fallow tank at 81 degrees....how many of you would trust a 42 day fallow period and bank your fish on it?

We are just starting this process now...

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Assuming all protocols are followed...30 days of copper in QT...no cross contamination...

If we set the fallow tank at 81 degrees....how many of you would trust a 42 day fallow period and bank your fish on it?

We are just starting this process now...

45 days days (grin).

Jay

 

[gunflintcamper]

45 days days (grin).

Jay

Oopsie...you did say 45!
I just read the Humblefish page where he said 6 weeks.

45 is sounding much more tolerable than 76...90...and so on.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Oopsie...you did say 45!
I just read the Humblefish page where he said 6 weeks.

45 is sounding much more tolerable than 76...90...and so on.

I'm sure 42 days is fine as well! I started this thread because the 76-90 day fallow periods were getting out of hand, and are not really based on good metrics. Humblefish promoted the original citation here, but he has since backed off on the time frame himself.

Jay

 

[zalick]

Assuming all protocols are followed...30 days of copper in QT...no cross contamination...

If we set the fallow tank at 81 degrees....how many of you would trust a 42 day fallow period and bank your fish on it?

We are just starting this process now...

After discussions with Jay in this thread, reading the literature and the comments from the "76 day rule" author, I would absolutely trust 45 days. In fact, I think its likely that 45 days is longer than necessary and I'd bet it covers 100% at 81 degrees.

For ich to survive past the 45 days, at 81 degrees, would be many many many standard deviations from the mean life cycle. I just don't think that is possible.

 

[ReefBeta]

I'm not sure, it depends on the size of the study. Mostly, it would be the lab resources to culture the Cryptocaryon. I've only published a few peer reviewed papers - my HLLE paper had a lot of histopathology charges with it and it cost about $7k all told. I wrote a paper on ozone that cost nothing, I used resources already in place, and did the study during my lunch hours (grin).
There are three likely research venues: Tropical Aquaculture Lab in Ruskin Florida (U of Fl extension). Dr. Stamper's lab at Disney or Andrew Rhyne at Rogers Williams. Trouble is, all three of these facilities seem booked up, the only way they would take on additional projects I think is if somebody came to them with soft money.

Jay

$7K sounds a lot less than the cost BRS put in their investigate series. Opportunities for BRS funded peer reviewed researches?

 

[ohioreef]

Would 45 days be good for velvet as well?

 

[Topekoms]

In my own experience, I battled ich for about 2 years. I initially treated all my fish in a hospital tank (copper for 2-3 week) then just let the copper level drop after that naturally, with water changes until putting the fish back in the DT, while leaving my tank fallow for the recommended 72 days. Each time I would do this, within days of returning fish to the DT, spots would reappear. I would tear the tank down, catch the fish, threat with copper in a hospital tank, and let the tank go fallow for increasingly longer amounts of time, over 90 days at a time. Each time, within days of putting fish back in the DT, ich would return. So it seemed to me like even the 72 day number was an underestimation. The last time I let the tank go fallow for 3 months, I also ran 2 - 40w Lifegard UV sterilizers. And after doing that, my fish have not experienced a recurrence of ich in over a year now.

So I don’t know what to think about that 72 day number. It seems like not enough time to me. My fish in the hospital tank showed no signs of ich until I returned them to my DT, and then just about all fish were re-infected within days. So it always appeared like my DT was never fully cleared. So I still recommend waiting longer than 72 days to anyone that runs fallow.

But that was just my experience...

I would say that you had something else going on. I have had to do fallow twice due to my fish went to a contaminated tank after a house fire only did the 72 day no issue.

 

[Isabel’s Hobby]

I know I m going to get some hate again ... idc ....I m not a Novize... I’ve had ich the last one from my brand new Achilles tang at Christmas.
I was about to freak out but I did not. I stayed calm and just fed my fish with variations of food incl. seaweed with garlic. I did not catch any of them out and cause more stress I don’t even have a Quarantine tank. I raised temp to 79 and that’s it. No medicine no catching anything because I don’t believe that by catching the fish and transfer them and then transfer back that you’re not creating the same stress all over plus if it’s in the DP tank ... then it’s in the tank where you put your cured fish right back into ?!?! But that’s me. My Achilles did not look as bad as that purple tang in the picture I do have to say. But after 3-4 days he / she got more spots. I used treatments years ago I did not see any results other then death.... so I’ve decided —- stay calm watch and do nothing. I was saying something about the cleaner wrasse but I guess that’s a myth that they eat these parasites of the fish ... well I don’t know either way. I m not an expert and I never claimed it. What I do know is ... my fish are all fine 8 weeks later. My Achilles has one or two spots off and on but nothing what makes me freak out or run to the store for meds. Especially since most meds are bad for corals. But that’s just me and what I experienced.
I changed about 15% water about every 10 days but I m doing that no matter what.

 

[Vette67]

I would say that you had something else going on. I have had to do fallow twice due to my fish went to a contaminated tank after a house fire only did the 72 day no issue.

You very well could be right. All I know is it was frustrating. It didn’t make sense from what I had read either.

 

[Pistol Peet]

I've been doing some research into the "76 day fallow period". I never heard of that prior to coming to Reef2Reef this past summer. I had always used 32 days as the maximum time for a tomont to remain viable under tropical conditions, and then I would round up to 45 days to help ensure that Neobenedenia was eradicated at the same time.

Turns out that the 1997 article written by Colorni and Burgess just references his PhD thesis which isn't available for review. Then, his co-author Burgess was also the editor for the journal that published it - certainly a conflict of interest! This paper then got referenced by Noga 2010 (he lists 72 days).

Things get a bit murky from there - if you read between the lines, there is some reference to one case at 68 degrees where they found viable tomonts in a xeric culture (no bacteria). Colorni himself seems to doubt his results apply to the real world, saying that at warmer temperatures and in the presence of bacteria, the tomonts probably don't last nearly as long.

I say that at 81 degrees F., 45 days is an appropriate fallow periods for Cryptocaryon, Amyloodinium and Neobenedenia....this coincides well with a 30 day copper treatment followed by two weeks of copper-free observation.


Jay

Very awsome read i have switched from copper and went straight ttm and uv sterilizer. with what I would call great success. Compared to a couple years ago when I just started of course. No ich or velvet out breaks since. And best of all no fish deaths since the switch. I do have 3 big bottles of copper safe on hand though just in case. Better to be prepared for the worse!

 

[Pistol Peet]

I know I m going to get some hate again ... idc ....I m not a Novize... I’ve had ich the last one from my brand new Achilles tang at Christmas.
I was about to freak out but I did not. I stayed calm and just fed my fish with variations of food incl. seaweed with garlic. I did not catch any of them out and cause more stress I don’t even have a Quarantine tank. I raised temp to 79 and that’s it. No medicine no catching anything because I don’t believe that by catching the fish and transfer them and then transfer back that you’re not creating the same stress all over plus if it’s in the DP tank ... then it’s in the tank where you put your cured fish right back into ?!?! But that’s me. My Achilles did not look as bad as that purple tang in the picture I do have to say. But after 3-4 days he / she got more spots. I used treatments years ago I did not see any results other then death.... so I’ve decided —- stay calm watch and do nothing. I was saying something about the cleaner wrasse but I guess that’s a myth that they eat these parasites of the fish ... well I don’t know either way. I m not an expert and I never claimed it. What I do know is ... my fish are all fine 8 weeks later. My Achilles has one or two spots off and on but nothing what makes me freak out or run to the store for meds. Especially since most meds are bad for corals. But that’s just me and what I experienced.
I changed about 15% water about every 10 days but I m doing that no matter what.

This is ich management instead of ich eradication a viable option if done correctly.

 

[Bepis]

What of those that stay dormant and only begin to come out a week or two late

 

[josephxsxn]

As someone who did a 76 day fallow I would have much preferred to feel safer doing a shorter one. But the theme at least at the time was to do the long one if you were risk adverse. I ended up developing dinos as my nutrients bottomed out without fish and had to fight them for weeks.

 

[McPuff]

It's important to remember that allowing the tank to go fallow won't ensure the fish added back are also clean. Even copper isn't going to be 100% effective. So why do people avoid using the simple Tank Transfer Method which relies on no chemicals? 12 days of TTM is also significantly shorter than the 30 days of copper. I can see that there are space limitations for some people but if you plan it out then you'll be able to take quite a few fish through TTM in 40+ days, especially if you do small batches at a time. I've had tremendous success with this method and there are quite a few others who have as well.

 

[Thaxxx]

I agree, new testing is needed and true peer reviewed studies need to be produced. Trouble is, there is no money in it, and everything runs on grants now. You may or may not know, but there is no real R&D in aquarium companies - at most it is a single person with some chemistry background, and at worst, the company just repackages old ideas.

Jay

This says it all....
No money, no study.
It's up to hobbies to experiment and come to conclusions based on the number of successful people with positive results. Not just for disease, but in all aspects of reefing.

There is countless ways to solve problems for any given situation, that's one of the serving purposes for this forum. We are on our own for finding answers.

 

[Vette67]

It's important to remember that allowing the tank to go fallow won't ensure the fish added back are also clean. Even copper isn't going to be 100% effective. So why do people avoid using the simple Tank Transfer Method which relies on no chemicals? 12 days of TTM is also significantly shorter than the 30 days of copper. I can see that there are space limitations for some people but if you plan it out then you'll be able to take quite a few fish through TTM in 40+ days, especially if you do small batches at a time. I've had tremendous success with this method and there are quite a few others who have as well.

How can you say so authoritatively that copper doesn't work? Like everyone should know copper is ineffective, but everyone knows TTM IS effective? That right there is where misinformation starts. You are the first person, in almost 25 years of reefing, to say copper is ineffective in treating cryptocaryon irritants. I give up.

 

[Anthony Scholfield]

How can you say so authoritatively that copper doesn't work? Like everyone should know copper is ineffective, but everyone knows TTM IS effective? That right there is where misinformation starts. You are the first person, in almost 25 years of reefing, to say copper is ineffective in treating cryptocaryon irritants. I give up.

I wouldn’t go as far to say that copper is completely ineffective but i would say that the margin for error is greater when using copper. I believe more people should know this about using copper and be more educated about TTM. With TTM you out run the parasites cycle on the fish so there is no worry about if your copper treatment killed it. I never recommend copper when people ask about treating ICH, always TTM.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I wouldn’t go as far to say that copper is completely ineffective but i would say that the margin for error is greater when using copper. I believe more people should know this about using copper and be more educated about TTM. With TTM you out run the parasites cycle on the fish so there is no worry about if your copper treatment killed it. I never recommend copper when people ask about treating ICH, always TTM.

The trouble with TTM is that it doesn’t control metazoan parasites at all. Without careful application, the extra handling is problematic. The timing is set up for textbook cases of Cryptocaryon, and there is suspicion that it doesn’t always work for Amyloodinium.

Copper + an antihelmenthic is a more sure thing.

Jay

 

[jaganshi066]

I'm sure 42 days is fine as well! I started this thread because the 76-90 day fallow periods were getting out of hand, and are not really based on good metrics. Humblefish promoted the original citation here, but he has since backed off on the time frame himself.

Jay

I always qt for a month and a half and ich has never came back!