45 Day Fallow periods

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Adding even 1 fish back to the display tank and have it show ick would re-start the fallow clock ( active ick infection) and then you also have a fish that would need a new clean quarantine tank for just that fish for a 30 day copper. If you put it back with the others, they would all have to go through a 30 day copper treatment.

You don’t think you could stop the cycle reset by pulling him right away. Similar to TTM? Interrupting the cycle since we know it takes 3-7 days for a tomont to drop off?

 

[mfinn]

You don’t think you could stop the cycle reset by pulling him right away. Similar to TTM? Interrupting the cycle since we know it takes 3-7 days for a tomont to drop off?

No, if ick is in the tank, it's there. They may not all be on the same timetable. I think Jay already said this earlier. He's the resident fish expert

There really isn't any short cuts. The fish have to be in copper a certain amount of time and the tank has to be fallow a certain amount of time.
If you try to change up the procedure, then you are playing a gambling game and the only ones that really pays the bill are the fish.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

No, if ick is in the tank, it's there. They may not all be on the same timetable. I think Jay already said this earlier. He's the resident fish expert

There really isn't any short cuts. The fish have to be in copper a certain amount of time and the tank has to be fallow a certain amount of time.
If you try to change up the procedure, then you are playing a gambling game and the only ones that really pays the bill are the fish.

I’m not suggesting a shortcut. I’m suggesting adding this as an extra precautionary step.

It seems that many people have failed fallow periods, so if we know it’s not an amazing success rate, adding this step could save some people some headache.

If we know that the trophont stage (parasite) takes 3-7 days to attach and then detach from the fish. If you put just 1 fish in, watch closely and within 0-2 days you see visible ich, I am thinking you may be able to stop the fallow period from restarting by removing the fish to hospital tank and starting the copper treatment over.

Even if you didn’t. Let’s say 1 or even 1000 tomonts fell off. You’d at least minimize the amount in the tank which would be better than creating a full on ich outbreak and resetting and having lower chances of 2nd fallow period working. Logically though, if you caught it fast enough, it seems like there would be a good chance you’d stop the cycle from resetting and could now do say another 6 weeks or 76 days or whatever you decide on TOP of the original period you did.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

This is like a reverse or twist of TTM but same concept.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

You don’t think you could stop the cycle reset by pulling him right away. Similar to TTM? Interrupting the cycle since we know it takes 3-7 days for a tomont to drop off?

Trophonts vary in size and they don't always stick to a firm timetable. You could easily miss a small trophont tucked inside a fin fold or in the gills....then by the time you see an "ich spots" on the outside of the fish, new tomonts have already been produced, then extending the fallow period.

My philosophy is always - you can enjoy your fish just the same while they are in a QT during fallow periods, so why hurry? The only time I consider breaking a fallow period is when the QT is unstable, and housing the fish there is going to cause fish loss.

Jay

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Trophonts vary in size and they don't always stick to a firm timetable. You could easily miss a small trophont tucked inside a fin fold or in the gills....then by the time you see an "ich spots" on the outside of the fish, new tomonts have already been produced, then extending the fallow period.

My philosophy is always - you can enjoy your fish just the same while they are in a QT during fallow periods, so why hurry? The only time I consider breaking a fallow period is when the QT is unstable, and housing the fish there is going to cause fish loss.

Jay

Again, not trying to cut fallow short, just want to be double safe when re introducing

Good points thank you. We’re on day 50 now, going to go full 60 as you recommended previously since our temp has been a little lower at 78-79 for about a week or two of the fallow. Mostly it’s been over 81, even up to 83 for 2 of the first weeks. Holding at 80 currently. Thanks @Jay Hemdal !!

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Trophonts vary in size and they don't always stick to a firm timetable. You could easily miss a small trophont tucked inside a fin fold or in the gills....then by the time you see an "ich spots" on the outside of the fish, new tomonts have already been produced, then extending the fallow period.

My philosophy is always - you can enjoy your fish just the same while they are in a QT during fallow periods, so why hurry? The only time I consider breaking a fallow period is when the QT is unstable, and housing the fish there is going to cause fish loss.

Jay

And we both know enjoying them in QT just isn’t the same. Hahahah. But ya if we tell ourselves that it helps so we don’t go insane waiting. Hahaha

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

And we both know enjoying them in QT just isn’t the same. Hahahah. But ya if we tell ourselves that it helps so we don’t go insane waiting. Hahaha

Found this thread by humble fish. This is what I was thinking, except he took it step further with FW Black Molly. He did say though that fallow would need to be restarted, and I was hoping it could be a step to avoid restart. Still nice extra step. https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/black-molly-quarantine.55/

 

[forestsofkelp]

Can the trophont phase subside/be invisible/rapidly visible? I had a few thoughts recently and that seems to be the only thing that explained them..

1. I was wondering how ich can be in a tank, but show no sign of infection...otherwise, if you saw no sign of ich for 76 days, your tank would be ich free, as it would have never infected a host. Is it correct to understand that fish can be "chronically" sick with the tomite (or trophont) phase, but show no outward sign of infection? I also read this phase is very resistant to copper...seems weird as that is the advised ich treatment!

2. I have seen ich before. However, recently I saw a fish in someone else's tank that seemed to develop ich in the evening...then the next day, was totally ich free. The entire time, it was acting normally. I dont think it was sand, and it was a fairy wrasse, who doesnt burrow in sand. He told me later he had a fish with 1 (ONE) spot that looked like ich but it went away a day later. Every time I have seen ich, it is clearly an outbreak on the fish that does not "come and go" in hours. Can ich be in the trophont stage for just a few hours like that?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Can the trophont phase subside/be invisible/rapidly visible? I had a few thoughts recently and that seems to be the only thing that explained them..

1. I was wondering how ich can be in a tank, but show no sign of infection...otherwise, if you saw no sign of ich for 76 days, your tank would be ich free, as it would have never infected a host. Is it correct to understand that fish can be "chronically" sick with the tomite (or trophont) phase, but show no outward sign of infection? I also read this phase is very resistant to copper...seems weird as that is the advised ich treatment!

2. I have seen ich before. However, recently I saw a fish in someone else's tank that seemed to develop ich in the evening...then the next day, was totally ich free. The entire time, it was acting normally. I dont think it was sand, and it was a fairy wrasse, who doesnt burrow in sand. He told me later he had a fish with 1 (ONE) spot that looked like ich but it went away a day later. Every time I have seen ich, it is clearly an outbreak on the fish that does not "come and go" in hours. Can ich be in the trophont stage for just a few hours like that?

The Cryptocaryon (marine ich) life cycle has some oddities to it. Small trophonts are tough to see, so ofte4n go unnoticed on the fish until they grow large enough to be readily visible. When the disease first starts up, the trophonts are all pretty much in the same point of their cycle. This creates a scenario where they all drop off the fish at once to form tomonts, and the fish suddenly appears "ich free". However, those tomonts then produce tomites/theronts that then reinfect the fish a few days later and the trophonts return - and the fish starts showing spots again. Eventually, the cycles become out of sync and the fish shows spots all of the time.

Jay

 

[forestsofkelp]

The Cryptocaryon (marine ich) life cycle has some oddities to it. Small trophonts are tough to see, so ofte4n go unnoticed on the fish until they grow large enough to be readily visible. When the disease first starts up, the trophonts are all pretty much in the same point of their cycle. This creates a scenario where they all drop off the fish at once to form tomonts, and the fish suddenly appears "ich free". However, those tomonts then produce tomites/theronts that then reinfect the fish a few days later and the trophonts return - and the fish starts showing spots again. Eventually, the cycles become out of sync and the fish shows spots all of the time

Thank you. Is this how it “survives” in tanks where ich is not seen for long periods of time?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you. Is this how it “survives” in tanks where ich is not seen for long periods of time?

Probably a mix of some tomonts being in a resting state and some active trophonts gong unnoticed on the fish - just enough to keep the infection simmering.
Jay

 

[jmichaelh7]

I never see ich in my tank until my UV sterilizer sleeve isn’t cleaned for 5-6 months. After wiping the gunk off, the ich disappears slowly .

100% true story

 

[nereefpat]

1. I was wondering how ich can be in a tank, but show no sign of infection...otherwise, if you saw no sign of ich for 76 days, your tank would be ich free, as it would have never infected a host. Is it correct to understand that fish can be "chronically" sick with the tomite (or trophont) phase, but show no outward sign of infection?

It's worth noting that the white speck we see isn't actually ich, but rather the fishes' skin reacting to the parasites. So I think it is possible that in a small case, it doesn't leave much of a mark, or is in an inconspicuous place like in the gill. It's also really easily seen in fishes with small scales and thin slime coats, especially tangs, but also angels and butterflies, and rabbits...but not so easily seen on the opposite, like with wrasses and dragonets.

I also read this phase is very resistant to copper...seems weird as that is the advised ich treatment!

When ich is feeding (trophont), it's under the skin of the fish, which is why dips and even meds in the hospital tank don't do much. How copper works is by killing the free swimming stage before it attaches to feed. So you are just waiting for all the trophonts to fall off, and also not be able to reinfect the fish.

Every time I have seen ich, it is clearly an outbreak on the fish that does not "come and go" in hours. Can ich be in the trophont stage for just a few hours like that?

Trophonts are attached for a period on the order of days. 3-7 days is what I usually see written. They feed for longer than a few hours.

Hope that helps.

 

[forestsofkelp]

It's worth noting that the white speck we see isn't actually ich, but rather the fishes' skin reacting to the parasites. So I think it is possible that in a small case, it doesn't leave much of a mark, or is in an inconspicuous place like in the gill. It's also really easily seen in fishes with small scales and thin slime coats, especially tangs, but also angels and butterflies, and rabbits...but not so easily seen on the opposite, like with wrasses and dragonets.


When ich is feeding (trophont), it's under the skin of the fish, which is why dips and even meds in the hospital tank don't do much. How copper works is by killing the free swimming stage before it attaches to feed. So you are just waiting for all the trophonts to fall off, and also not be able to reinfect the fish.



Trophonts are attached for a period on the order of days. 3-7 days is what I usually see written. They feed for longer than a few hours.

Hope that helps.

thank you, it does. Very helpful in understanding ich.

my ich that “came and went” has now “come” so time to treat.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Again, not trying to cut fallow short, just want to be double safe when re introducing

Good points thank you. We’re on day 50 now, going to go full 60 as you recommended previously since our temp has been a little lower at 78-79 for about a week or two of the fallow. Mostly it’s been over 81, even up to 83 for 2 of the first weeks. Holding at 80 currently. Thanks @Jay Hemdal !!

To add data point for those thinking about fallow. Did 60 days since my temp was a bit low for some of it. Worked perfectly. No ich. Thanks @Jay Hemdal and everyone else.

 

[jmichaelh7]

To add data point for those thinking about fallow. Did 60 days since my temp was a bit low for some of it. Worked perfectly. No ich. Thanks @Jay Hemdal and everyone else.

I’m glad it worked for you. Please let us know after 30 days there is no ich still.

I tried the 45 day high temp and ich came back. I must have used contaminated something down the line. Now I’m using UV to keep the numbers low

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

I’m glad it worked for you. Please let us know after 30 days there is no ich still.

I tried the 45 day high temp and ich came back. I must have used contaminated something down the line. Now I’m using UV to keep the numbers low

It's been couple of months now. No ich

 

[Gildo]

hi
question, i put new lps in a fallow tank, so the days count starts from zero.
however, I gave them a 2-minute bath in NOT diluted 3% hydrogen peroxide, could it be a good treatment and I don't have to start the count again???
what are the things that will surely be dead with this immersion?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

hi
question, i put new lps in a fallow tank, so the days count starts from zero.
however, I gave them a 2-minute bath in NOT diluted 3% hydrogen peroxide, could it be a good treatment and I don't have to start the count again???
what are the things that will surely be dead with this immersion?

That's a good question - I don't have an answer for that, no studies have ever been done on that. I think common wisdom says that this will help (as long as the dip doesn't harm the coral directly).

Jay