Why do so many things die in my tank?

taylormaximus

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So I've been feeling quite frustrated with reefing lately because I feel like I've been doing everything right, I did loads of research and every decision I make with my reef tank is for a specific purpose. Despite this I have just about every issue you can think of in my tank, and no end in sight. Here's a short list:

Hair algae, not outrageous amounts but unstoppable

Dinos (confirmed with a microscope) covering sandbed during the day, they seem to be the harmless variety, and I used to have a sand sifting goby that made it almost a non issue, but absolutely nothing has worked to fix this

An unidentified green film algae that coats the rocks and also covers and kills a lot of coral. No one I've asked has had any ideas on what this is, and despite it killing corals they said not to worry about it

Most recently I've gotten a patch of red cyano, unknown yet how devastating that will be for the system

Besides algae problems, I've had a number of fish simply drop dead despite appearing perfectly healthy, and not from ich or another disease, everything I add to the tank goes through a Copper Power + Paracleanse QT treatment, yet I've lost a Bangaii Cardinal, 2 Chromis, and a Diamond Watchman Goby

Inverts also seem to die prematurely. I'm not sure how long certain things typically last, but for me snails will die after 2 or 3 months at most, hermits can actually last close to a year, although they don't really do much of anything clean up wise. My tuxedo urchin who was quite small just passed suddenly after having it for 6 months. Ive also tried conchs and cowries in the past, but both died within the week

The list of coral I've lost (and my main struggle and purpose of this post) is even longer. The only coral I have that I've seen any growth at all on is GSP, but it usually isn't fully opened. And I've managed to keep some zoas alive but even those will shrink over time. Every other coral I've tried has either immediately closed up and never opened again, slowly shrunk over a period of weeks until completely disappearing, or gotten quickly coated in algae and died. The one SPS I tried (birds nest) was the latter category, any LPS I've tried (blastos, euphyllia, Duncan's, candy canes) will never open, and even softies like Xenia, Colt coral and toadstools will shrink until they're gone. I even tried adding invasive corals like blue sympodium polyps and they disappeared pretty much overnight.

The few fish (clownfish, azure damsel, royal gramma) and corals (GSP and select zoas, as well as purple star polyps I just added) that I have been able to keep alive have done well, but I feel like I'm missing something. It can't be normal to have such a high mortality rate with livestock, but I haven't been able to pin down the cause, although its safe to assume there's multiple reasons. I feel guilty even purchasing most things now because theres such a high chance of me killing them.

And I should say too that I don't in any way neglect my tank. I do 12% weekly water changes, regular water tests, feed frozen mysis as well as dry food, and I'm very alert to changes in my system. I also don't think I over maintain or tinker with things. My light and flow settings have stayed the same throughout, and the only things I'll dose (usually less than a capful on a weekly basis) are Microbacter 7, Clean, or Razor to help keep the various algaes under control. Nonetheless here's my equipment and parameters:

Equipment
Tank age: 1.5 years, with dry rock
Tank size: 32 gallons
Light: Fluval Sea Marine 32 Watt
Filter: Seachem Tidal 35
Wavemaker: Hygger Mini DC Wavemaker 1600 GPH
ATO: FZone Auto top off
Salt mix: Red Sea Blue Bucket
Water: I use tap water, which where I live in Canada our water is quite clean (I think a lot of people may point to this as the issue, which it may well be, but is my only option for the time being), and I also treat the water and don't use it in my system until I get phosphate readings under 0.1ppm, and Nitrates are usually 0 already.

Parameters
Salinity: 1.025
Temperature: 78°F
Nitrates: 0 (I can't get a Nitrate reading with the algae in the system)
Phosphates: 0.15 ppm
Alkalinity: 10 dKh
pH: 8.1
Calcium: 450 ppm
Magnesium: 1250 ppm

QT
Fish: I do a 3 week QT for fish and treat with Copper Power and Paracleanse
Coral: dip with Coral Rx
Inverts: no QT, but I will scrub their shells with a H2O2 solution before adding to the tank

This is basically my whole set up, top to bottom. Basically my question is, what am I missing? Is it normal to deal with so many unexplained deaths in the hobby? Is it normal to have waves and wave of algae, despite all the precautions I've taken? I feel like I'm doing everything right and yet I'm having results as if I'm doing everything wrong. I'm also wondering in your experience, has there been one thing that once you realized was the problem, it clicked and you were able to stabilize things in your tank?

Sorry this ended up so long, just trying everything I can't to figure out the problem. Thanks for your help.

Tl;dr, I can't seem to keep anything alive and I'm trying to figure out if the hobby is just that hard or I'm doing something very wrong.

1000007151.jpg
 

Lavey29

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To start with bottomed out nutrients mean your corals are starving to death. Tap water is terrible for a reef tank. Buy RODI from your LFS and make your own salt water. You don't have much filtration so any issue is going to compound in a small tank. One fish death can start a domino affect overnight when 02 levels drop. Disease is also a consideration even though you QT. All the algae problems you mention indicate a water chemistry problems probably nutrients, or to much light and or lack of flow.
 

Formulator

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For one, your tank doesn’t look bad at all. Stop comparing it to the cover of Coral magazine lol. Those tanks are 10-15+ years in the making. Everyone has algae. You need more flow. That will help with the sand dinos and cyano. You need to get your nitrate up. Having algae does not prevent this, you just need to dose more. NeoNitro works great.

But the biggest one, and probably the root of many problems is tap water. Even “clean” tap water is not ideal. The wrong impurity even in small amounts can do serious harm. Plus, if you are topping off with tap water for 1.5 years, you have concentrated the impurities significantly in that tank.
 

Goaway

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My own experience.

10 dkh with no detectable nitrates is a way to burn many kind of coral. 8 is safest.

I know nothing about the lights you're using.

Is the tank empty?

If there is no live stock, you can try to run the tank at 82f to kill dinos. You'll need to keep it that way for a week. As for gha and the green cyano...

A few people have cured red slime with dosing weekly calcium carbonate.

@tbrown @Slocke

I cant recall if those 2 were some of the members. I know tbrown knows someone.


As for inverts dying.

There's something else going on, I'm not sure of the root cause there :*(
 

Gribbles

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My own experience.

10 dkh with no detectable nitrates is a way to burn many kind of coral. 8 is safest.

I know nothing about the lights you're using.

Is the tank empty?

If there is no live stock, you can try to run the tank at 82f to kill dinos. You'll need to keep it that way for a week. As for gha and the green cyano...

A few people have cured red slime with dosing weekly calcium carbonate.

@tbrown @Slocke

I cant recall if those 2 were some of the members. I know tbrown knows someone.


As for inverts dying.

There's something else going on, I'm not sure of the root cause there :*(
He literally posted a picture where you can see multiple livestock
 

Mr. Mojo Rising

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I live in Canada and I use rodi. Everyone I know uses rodi. It’s all about water care and quality.

For your corals dying I blame your light, sorry but it’s not very strong.

I would add another powerhead and get more flow. Eliminate all dead spots. Algae and cyano loves low flow.

What about skimmer? Activated carbon? I suspect you might be over feeding if you have so much algae. Rotting food is the fuel for algae and seems you have no way to remove dissolved organic. You have minimal filtration.

I wonder if the water is oxygenated? No skimmer and only one powerhead, is it pointed at the water surface or the surface is flat? It should be turbulent. Lots of algae means low oxygen at night.

Tank pics will help.
 

vetteguy53081

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So I've been feeling quite frustrated with reefing lately because I feel like I've been doing everything right, I did loads of research and every decision I make with my reef tank is for a specific purpose. Despite this I have just about every issue you can think of in my tank, and no end in sight. Here's a short list:

Hair algae, not outrageous amounts but unstoppable

Dinos (confirmed with a microscope) covering sandbed during the day, they seem to be the harmless variety, and I used to have a sand sifting goby that made it almost a non issue, but absolutely nothing has worked to fix this

An unidentified green film algae that coats the rocks and also covers and kills a lot of coral. No one I've asked has had any ideas on what this is, and despite it killing corals they said not to worry about it

Most recently I've gotten a patch of red cyano, unknown yet how devastating that will be for the system

Besides algae problems, I've had a number of fish simply drop dead despite appearing perfectly healthy, and not from ich or another disease, everything I add to the tank goes through a Copper Power + Paracleanse QT treatment, yet I've lost a Bangaii Cardinal, 2 Chromis, and a Diamond Watchman Goby

Inverts also seem to die prematurely. I'm not sure how long certain things typically last, but for me snails will die after 2 or 3 months at most, hermits can actually last close to a year, although they don't really do much of anything clean up wise. My tuxedo urchin who was quite small just passed suddenly after having it for 6 months. Ive also tried conchs and cowries in the past, but both died within the week

The list of coral I've lost (and my main struggle and purpose of this post) is even longer. The only coral I have that I've seen any growth at all on is GSP, but it usually isn't fully opened. And I've managed to keep some zoas alive but even those will shrink over time. Every other coral I've tried has either immediately closed up and never opened again, slowly shrunk over a period of weeks until completely disappearing, or gotten quickly coated in algae and died. The one SPS I tried (birds nest) was the latter category, any LPS I've tried (blastos, euphyllia, Duncan's, candy canes) will never open, and even softies like Xenia, Colt coral and toadstools will shrink until they're gone. I even tried adding invasive corals like blue sympodium polyps and they disappeared pretty much overnight.

The few fish (clownfish, azure damsel, royal gramma) and corals (GSP and select zoas, as well as purple star polyps I just added) that I have been able to keep alive have done well, but I feel like I'm missing something. It can't be normal to have such a high mortality rate with livestock, but I haven't been able to pin down the cause, although its safe to assume there's multiple reasons. I feel guilty even purchasing most things now because theres such a high chance of me killing them.

And I should say too that I don't in any way neglect my tank. I do 12% weekly water changes, regular water tests, feed frozen mysis as well as dry food, and I'm very alert to changes in my system. I also don't think I over maintain or tinker with things. My light and flow settings have stayed the same throughout, and the only things I'll dose (usually less than a capful on a weekly basis) are Microbacter 7, Clean, or Razor to help keep the various algaes under control. Nonetheless here's my equipment and parameters:

Equipment
Tank age: 1.5 years, with dry rock
Tank size: 32 gallons
Light: Fluval Sea Marine 32 Watt
Filter: Seachem Tidal 35
Wavemaker: Hygger Mini DC Wavemaker 1600 GPH
ATO: FZone Auto top off
Salt mix: Red Sea Blue Bucket
Water: I use tap water, which where I live in Canada our water is quite clean (I think a lot of people may point to this as the issue, which it may well be, but is my only option for the time being), and I also treat the water and don't use it in my system until I get phosphate readings under 0.1ppm, and Nitrates are usually 0 already.

Parameters
Salinity: 1.025
Temperature: 78°F
Nitrates: 0 (I can't get a Nitrate reading with the algae in the system)
Phosphates: 0.15 ppm
Alkalinity: 10 dKh
pH: 8.1
Calcium: 450 ppm
Magnesium: 1250 ppm

QT
Fish: I do a 3 week QT for fish and treat with Copper Power and Paracleanse
Coral: dip with Coral Rx
Inverts: no QT, but I will scrub their shells with a H2O2 solution before adding to the tank

This is basically my whole set up, top to bottom. Basically my question is, what am I missing? Is it normal to deal with so many unexplained deaths in the hobby? Is it normal to have waves and wave of algae, despite all the precautions I've taken? I feel like I'm doing everything right and yet I'm having results as if I'm doing everything wrong. I'm also wondering in your experience, has there been one thing that once you realized was the problem, it clicked and you were able to stabilize things in your tank?

Sorry this ended up so long, just trying everything I can't to figure out the problem. Thanks for your help.

Tl;dr, I can't seem to keep anything alive and I'm trying to figure out if the hobby is just that hard or I'm doing something very wrong.

1000007151.jpg
never consider tap water quite clean unless tested and verified with lab tests or water analysis. Often tap will be low in PH value. Additionally false tests, and salinity readings can be a contributor.
3 weeks copper power is short of the 30 day but acceptable. What copper level was the copper power and how did you test the copper level?.
Paracleanse pretty much useless. Did you mix both meds?
 
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taylormaximus

taylormaximus

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For one, your tank doesn’t look bad at all. Stop comparing it to the cover of Coral magazine lol. Those tanks are 10-15+ years in the making. Everyone has algae. You need more flow. That will help with the sand dinos and cyano. You need to get your nitrate up. Having algae does not prevent this, you just need to dose more. NeoNitro works great.

But the biggest one, and probably the root of many problems is tap water. Even “clean” tap water is not ideal. The wrong impurity even in small amounts can do serious harm. Plus, if you are topping off with tap water for 1.5 years, you have concentrated the impurities significantly in that tank.
You hit on the two biggest things that I've been wanting to change, adding a second powerhead and installing and rodi. I haven't done either yet for cost reasons but I agree they would both help a lot.

I actually have NeoNitro in my cabinet, but would any amount of the stuff actually help if the algae just consumes it all? I've attempted dosing it before but eventually gave up after seeing absolutely no change in my nitrates
 

Formulator

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You hit on the two biggest things that I've been wanting to change, adding a second powerhead and installing and rodi. I haven't done either yet for cost reasons but I agree they would both help a lot.

I actually have NeoNitro in my cabinet, but would any amount of the stuff actually help if the algae just consumes it all? I've attempted dosing it before but eventually gave up after seeing absolutely no change in my nitrates
If you dose enough it will come up and eventually help you fight the algae, as counterintuitive as that sounds. Just have to dose more than the algae can consume.
 

Gribbles

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If you dose enough it will come up and eventually help you fight the algae, as counterintuitive as that sounds. Just have to dose more than the algae can consume.
Good advice. I'll add to keep manually removing as well. It's a tough grind but you'll get there.

Did you ever confirm what species of dino you have? Some of those certainly will irritate corals and prevent them from opening
 

VintageReefer

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Your tank does look pretty good but all you have for coral that survives is low light and low flow coral.

You need more water circulation and you need a better light. The fluval lights are marketed as reef lights but it’s just marketing and they are quite poor in comparison to other lights

Rodi is the next thing I would suggest. Buy it from the LFS if you don’t have a rodi filter but if you got one it would quickly pay for itself and put more control in your hands. You don’t know if the LFS is keeping up on those filter and membrane replacements.
 

Formulator

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The fluval lights are marketed as reef lights but it’s just marketing and they are quite poor in comparison to other lights
Why is our hobby so plagued by misleading marketing?! It seems like you can’t trust what 75% of these companies claim, and the biggest players are often the worst offenders! Really grinds my gears…. Anyways, rant over. Happy reefing everyone!
 

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I agree with what everyone is saying, but also some things to think about:

Buying new coral or fish will mean nothing if your water is going to kill it. No country consistently has clean enough tap water all year long, seasonally, especially during droughts and heavy rainfall seasons, local districts will change the cleaning additives to the water to make it safe for consumption, but aquarium water needs to be cleaner than what people can survive off of from the tap. I know it sucks, but best bet is stop buying coral or fish until you have enough money for a good rodi system (trust me, I’d struggle with this as well, so I feel for you).

Dinos will kill almost any invert after the invert eats it.

Your nitrates are probably zero due to the hair and film algae, which is probably leading to your Dino problem. your best bet is to buy a separate filter for the tank for a while like the sicce shark with the magnetically attached filters, then scrub the hair algae from your tank every couple of days so it can build some nitrate, and make sure to clean the filter of the sicce or equivalent pump each day to take the built up hair algae put.

You can use chemiclean to treat the cyano, but I would deal with the Dino’s and the hair algae before you go after the cyano. If you begin medicating the tank now you may throw things even further out of balance.

Your phosphates are way too high for 0 nitrate. Try and get a phosphate remover and dose to the tank at 1/4 the recommended dosage amount (into your filter floss or filter sock) each day until you are under 0.05.

Are you running your lights mostly white most of the time? If so, until you solve the issues with the Dino and the hair algae, get rid of the reds and greens and bring your whites to be less than 25% of what you set your blues to.

Cerith snails will take on cyano, it you need a lot of them. Never add too many at once. Add a handful, wait a couple of weeks, and if the cyano is still there, add another handful.

Forget about snails in general (except for ceriths) until your Dino’s are gone. Ceriths, typically (in my experience), have a 50% chance of survival against Dino’s, and it depends on the Dino species, hence the benefit of getting a handful at first to see if they survive.

Edit cause I just thought of this: what are you feeding the tank and how often???
 
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VintageReefer

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It’s true. And it’s a brand petco sells so it’s on their shelves and you won’t see an AI there. People go to petco to buy the tank and supplies and see the light with the word marine and a bunch of corals and then think it’s good
 

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I agree with what everyone is saying, but also some things to think about:

Buying new coral or fish will mean nothing if your water is going to kill it. No country consistently has clean enough tap water all year long, seasonally, especially during droughts and heavy rainfall seasons, local districts will change the cleaning additives to the water to make it safe for consumption, but aquarium water needs to be cleaner than what people can survive off of from the tap. I know it sucks, but best bet is stop buying coral or fish until you have enough money for a good rodi system (trust me, I’d struggle with this as well, so I feel for you).

Dinos will kill almost any invert after the invert eats it.

Your nitrates are probably zero due to the hair and film algae, which is probably leading to your Dino problem. your best bet is to buy a separate filter for the tank for a while like the sicce shark with the magnetically attached filters, then scrub the hair algae from your tank every couple of days so it can build some nitrate, and make sure to clean the filter of the sicce or equivalent pump each day to take the built up hair algae put.

You can use chemiclean to treat the cyano, but I would deal with the Dino’s and the hair algae before you go after the cyano. If you begin medicating the tank now you may throw things even further out of balance.

Your phosphates are way too high for 0 nitrate. Try and get a phosphate remover and dose to the tank at 1/4 the recommended dosage amount (into your filter floss or filter sock) each day until you are under 0.05.

Are you running your lights mostly white most of the time? If so, until you solve the issues with the Dino and the hair algae, get rid of the reds and greens and bring your whites to be less than 25% of what you set your blues to.

Cerith snails will take on cyano, it you need a lot of them. Never add too many at once. Add a handful, wait a couple of weeks, and if the cyano is still there, add another handful.

Forget about snails in general (except for ceriths) until your Dino’s are gone. Verity’s typically (in my experience), have a 50% chance of survival against Dino’s, and it depends on the Dino species, hence the benefit of getting a handful at first to see if they survive.

You don’t even need whites at all. I ran blue only for over a year with my corals doing great. Blue only can help reduce algae growth.

If op has the ability to I would say run red at zero, green doesn’t really matter. And white 0-5% until things are under control
 

tbrown

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So I've been feeling quite frustrated with reefing lately because I feel like I've been doing everything right, I did loads of research and every decision I make with my reef tank is for a specific purpose. Despite this I have just about every issue you can think of in my tank, and no end in sight. Here's a short list:

Hair algae, not outrageous amounts but unstoppable

Dinos (confirmed with a microscope) covering sandbed during the day, they seem to be the harmless variety, and I used to have a sand sifting goby that made it almost a non issue, but absolutely nothing has worked to fix this

An unidentified green film algae that coats the rocks and also covers and kills a lot of coral. No one I've asked has had any ideas on what this is, and despite it killing corals they said not to worry about it

Most recently I've gotten a patch of red cyano, unknown yet how devastating that will be for the system

Besides algae problems, I've had a number of fish simply drop dead despite appearing perfectly healthy, and not from ich or another disease, everything I add to the tank goes through a Copper Power + Paracleanse QT treatment, yet I've lost a Bangaii Cardinal, 2 Chromis, and a Diamond Watchman Goby

Inverts also seem to die prematurely. I'm not sure how long certain things typically last, but for me snails will die after 2 or 3 months at most, hermits can actually last close to a year, although they don't really do much of anything clean up wise. My tuxedo urchin who was quite small just passed suddenly after having it for 6 months. Ive also tried conchs and cowries in the past, but both died within the week

The list of coral I've lost (and my main struggle and purpose of this post) is even longer. The only coral I have that I've seen any growth at all on is GSP, but it usually isn't fully opened. And I've managed to keep some zoas alive but even those will shrink over time. Every other coral I've tried has either immediately closed up and never opened again, slowly shrunk over a period of weeks until completely disappearing, or gotten quickly coated in algae and died. The one SPS I tried (birds nest) was the latter category, any LPS I've tried (blastos, euphyllia, Duncan's, candy canes) will never open, and even softies like Xenia, Colt coral and toadstools will shrink until they're gone. I even tried adding invasive corals like blue sympodium polyps and they disappeared pretty much overnight.

The few fish (clownfish, azure damsel, royal gramma) and corals (GSP and select zoas, as well as purple star polyps I just added) that I have been able to keep alive have done well, but I feel like I'm missing something. It can't be normal to have such a high mortality rate with livestock, but I haven't been able to pin down the cause, although its safe to assume there's multiple reasons. I feel guilty even purchasing most things now because theres such a high chance of me killing them.

And I should say too that I don't in any way neglect my tank. I do 12% weekly water changes, regular water tests, feed frozen mysis as well as dry food, and I'm very alert to changes in my system. I also don't think I over maintain or tinker with things. My light and flow settings have stayed the same throughout, and the only things I'll dose (usually less than a capful on a weekly basis) are Microbacter 7, Clean, or Razor to help keep the various algaes under control. Nonetheless here's my equipment and parameters:

Equipment
Tank age: 1.5 years, with dry rock
Tank size: 32 gallons
Light: Fluval Sea Marine 32 Watt
Filter: Seachem Tidal 35
Wavemaker: Hygger Mini DC Wavemaker 1600 GPH
ATO: FZone Auto top off
Salt mix: Red Sea Blue Bucket
Water: I use tap water, which where I live in Canada our water is quite clean (I think a lot of people may point to this as the issue, which it may well be, but is my only option for the time being), and I also treat the water and don't use it in my system until I get phosphate readings under 0.1ppm, and Nitrates are usually 0 already.

Parameters
Salinity: 1.025
Temperature: 78°F
Nitrates: 0 (I can't get a Nitrate reading with the algae in the system)
Phosphates: 0.15 ppm
Alkalinity: 10 dKh
pH: 8.1
Calcium: 450 ppm
Magnesium: 1250 ppm

QT
Fish: I do a 3 week QT for fish and treat with Copper Power and Paracleanse
Coral: dip with Coral Rx
Inverts: no QT, but I will scrub their shells with a H2O2 solution before adding to the tank

This is basically my whole set up, top to bottom. Basically my question is, what am I missing? Is it normal to deal with so many unexplained deaths in the hobby? Is it normal to have waves and wave of algae, despite all the precautions I've taken? I feel like I'm doing everything right and yet I'm having results as if I'm doing everything wrong. I'm also wondering in your experience, has there been one thing that once you realized was the problem, it clicked and you were able to stabilize things in your tank?

Sorry this ended up so long, just trying everything I can't to figure out the problem. Thanks for your help.

Tl;dr, I can't seem to keep anything alive and I'm trying to figure out if the hobby is just that hard or I'm doing something very wrong.

1000007151.jpg
I agree with the other posts pointing at 0 nitrates being a possible cause for some of the algae allowing the algae to potentially outcompete the corals. From my understanding 0 nitrates is good only if you have 0 phosphates as well.

For the algae, what I've found in the past is iron in the water. Certain algaes (especially hair algaes) will grow like CRAZY when there's iron present for them to feed on, and then they'll strip the nitrates from the water.

Any rusty magnets or metal pieces? I believe @Imrahilwjz found his return pump as a most likely source for copper and other metals in his tank. I had a magnetic glass scraper that rusted and caused a massive amount of GHA growth that I couldn't get rid of until I pulled the rusty magnet out of the tank.

For Dinos, I recently beat those back with MB7, live Nitrifying Bacteria, a filter floss pad in the tank, and UV. Took about 2 weeks of that and getting my phosphates back up above 0 and the Dinos disappeared.

The green slime could be a bacterial blooms as well. If you're having invert and livestock deaths, there could definitely be some ammonia spikes causing a bloom of bacteria trying to consume that.

Also, MB7 lowers Nitrates so you might have to use more NeoNitro to get above 0. What dose MB7 are you using and how often?
 

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From my understanding 0 nitrates is good only if you have 0 phosphates as well
I just want to point out that there is no situation where zeroing out either or both is a good thing. Corals need nutrients to live.

Everything else you suggested is kosher, but you can’t start carbon dosing (mb7) with zero nitrates already. Need to get those up first, and then maybe consider it for stability.
 

gbroadbridge

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Water: I use tap water, which where I live in Canada our water is quite clean (I think a lot of people may point to this as the issue, which it may well be, but is my only option for the time being),

That is your problem right there.

If you cannot make your own RODI, buy it.

Occams razor.
 

tbrown

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I just want to point out that there is no situation where zeroing out either or both is a good thing. Corals need nutrients to live.

Everything else you suggested is kosher, but you can’t start carbon dosing (mb7) with zero nitrates already. Need to get those up first, and then maybe consider it for stability.
Zeroing out both works if you spot feed. Zeroing either out is always bad.

But I agree, I am rarely successful at 0:0 but I've been successful even as high as 100:0.25. I wasn't advocating for ULNS at all, just stating that if either is 0 but not both it'll cause problems.
 

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